US wants India's help in fighting Baitullah Mehsud: Holbrooke

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Oh we know that BM is your paid goon! So we will just be sending him home to Bharat Mata!

We do not want India destroyed! Just suffer some more like its already doing at the hands of car bombings, Muslim Riots, Christian killings etc etc etc. BM will just the fuel to the fire in your backyard, like make it a bit more interesting!

And please, we are much better off here in Pakistan then the homeless bastards sleeping on your footpaths!!

couldnt have said it better myself sir....

 

[Screaming Skull]

A very interesting article about Baitullah Mehsud and Tehrik-i-Taliban from STRATFOR.

Tehrik-i-Taliban: A Specious Claim and Brash Threats | STRATFOR

An excerpt from the article...

"Mehsud is neither stupid nor crazy. Such people do not become major militant leaders at age 35 in the violent world of Pakistan’s tribal areas. He is clearly rational and quite Machiavellian. What he is doing, therefore, likely has some rational explanation beyond the fact that he likes to hear his name mentioned by the media. While the threats against the United States and United Kingdom may be explained away under the “media debutante” rationale, unless Mehsud made a terrible miscalculation in taking credit for the Binghamton shooting, there must be some other overriding reason to risk damaging his reputation as a militant leader with a specious claim."

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Ah well here even US will beg to differ with your perception with regards to skills which India has in insurgency and jungle warfare (in latter at times considered second only to Vietnam) with US forces undergoing exposure in CIJW (Counter Insurgency & Jungle Warfare School) Vairangte, Mizoram which is the home of Indian Army jungle warfare and counter insurgency training. IA has over 50 years of exposure in CI grid and is successfully running operations in largest deployment in CI environment today in J&K and over 2 decades of exposure in fighting Pakistan based groups (the same trainers who trained the people in Afghan war acted here) and not landing in a situation of Soviets .....

Afghanistan is not a jungle . What my point is the US CI capability exceeds almost any force in the world and even they are suffering heavily how can you predict that Indian forces will be successful on such bloody battalefeild.

If you look at the objectives given to US-NATO forces in Afghanistan, they seem to be winning. The objective was to ensure a stable central government and allow developmental activities to progress by providing maximum security .... while you will undoubtedly argue that they dont control 70% land etc etc and are engaged in daily fire fights, the very inherent character of CI grid allows for the same and is the key to reversing the insurgency. By providing a relatively safe space for development to progress, the political objective is achieved and that means its a victory and not a defeat. Any military objective is an extension of the foreign policy and the political will. Your victory or defeat are measured on parameters of attainment of your objectives or the failure to do so. If you read about NATO forces mandate they have succeeded to a much larger extent than was expected by majority of people

What about the druglords and poppy plantation which is the main source of funding for the taliban and aq. Considering those facts i dont see it as a success. US forces to some extent maitaining controll in the Urban areas but not at all in all Afghanistan. The fact is that US and Nato forces are even more vounreble to terrorist attack than ever before. You cant call this a success or achievement of objective.

US will not be exiting nor NATO ..... whether India enters or not remains to be seen ...... but if state of pakistan is imminently going to collapse, you may find IA being inducted and it has the necessar infrastructure and forces to sustain combat operations there.

You views confirm that you are unaware of the capabilities of Pakistan .Pakistan cannot fail in its own territory and no other country not even US shall be authorized to enter with a reason that Pakistan is failing. Its a GeoPolitical Power. And even If India tries to enter our territory what is the Possibility that How would People of Pakistan react to such an invation. The population living in tribal belt is 5% of totall population .If india even tried to enter the whole nation will respond which will triger a jihad which no one can stop..

India would not like to place troops until and unless PA totally fails at the task at hand and there is imminent threat of shift of focus into Kashmir and India ...... US will also ensure that this does not happen ....... whether PA or GoP or you like it or not ...... today PA has no option but to fight or Pakistan is doomed and then there shall be entry of foreign troops into Pakistan, howsoever high the casualty rate or length of induction may be ..... for non nation here can allow nukes to fall into unscrupulous hands

Even if PA fails there is no possibility that it would support indian presence. There are multiple areas where we can play. So it would be a game on if it happend like that

 

[Hellfire]

Hellfire! I partially agree with your assessment above. My response was not to degrade the conditions of the homeless in India but was mainly to counter the ''self-righteous/ holier-than-thou'' comments from Torpedo! Further discourse on your assessment above will tend to throw the discussion on a tangent to the subject at hand! So let us have this chat some other time and in another thread!

it was a one off comment and am grateful you have taken it to be as such ... no intention of deriving a tangent from issue only explanatory comment from my side ..... thanks

 

[Hellfire]

H2O3C4Nitrogen

Please bear with me.


Afghanistan is not a jungle . What my point is the US CI capability exceeds almost any force in the world and even they are suffering heavily how can you predict that Indian forces will be successful on such bloody battalefeild.

I know and understand the terrain of Afghanistan which is very similar to what exists in Ladakh region of J&K where the US as also British forces have held exercises with Indian army to acquaint themselves with nuances of CI grid operations in High Altitude and rocky terrain ..


U.S Special Forces to Hold Joint Exercises with Indian Army in Ladakh | India Defence

Mountain warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

reproduced at russian site

Mountain warfare

and if you even want to compare US army to amount of exposure PA and IA have in high altitude regions and mountain warfare .... then trust me you are way off target



FMSO Document - Ground Combat at High Altitude

In what way does US surpass capabilities in a CI grid? Can you kindly elaborate on the same?

had earlier posted in differentthread this link

THESIS

I am sure if you understand the basic concept of insurgent and how to fight him (Guerilla & How to Fight Him is a basic introduction towards the same and highly recommended) you will get the point I am trying to present.


What about the druglords and poppy plantation which is the main source of funding for the taliban and aq. Considering those facts i dont see it as a success. US forces to some extent maitaining controll in the Urban areas but not at all in all Afghanistan. The fact is that US and Nato forces are even more vounreble to terrorist attack than ever before. You cant call this a success or achievement of objective.

The key to fight insurgency is to give the local populance an alternative that they shall be loathe to loose. Development and progress is today the most attractive offer for the common afghani .... and US and NATO are providing atleast basic amount of security in a country torn by conflict for 30 years now and their progress maybe slow, but as development progress in their shadow, there will be a change. An insurgency cannot be fought and won in a limited time frame like a conventional war. We have faed insurgency in Nagaland for now over 60 years and as development is reachiing there slowly, the problem is slowly reducing and with passage of few more years it shall taper off ...... its always a long drawn affair as its assymetrical warfare where you have no defined enemy and rules.


You views confirm that you are unaware of the capabilities of Pakistan .

I am very well aware of Pakistan's capability and understand quite a lot of it. That is why across many of my posts have said they are today paradoxically India's best ally to protect India from Taliban threat ..... rhetoric has no place and nationalism in understandable but please do understand if the other is even pointing a finger at your country or not.


Pakistan cannot fail in its own territory and no other country not even US shall be authorized to enter with a reason that Pakistan is failing. Its a GeoPolitical Power.


For its and others including India's I sure hope and expect it not to fail ....... but the threat they have internally, they are refusing to address with their might (disengaging the crack PA units from Indian border to take on these groups) in their distorted view of eastern monster


And even If India tries to enter our territory what is the Possibility that How would People of Pakistan react to such an invation. The population living in tribal belt is 5% of totall population .If india even tried to enter the whole nation will respond which will triger a jihad which no one can stop..

you have used jihad as some sort of crazy war ... deviating from islamic meaning of same ..... anyways where have we talked of entering Pakistan? do you think afghanistan is pakistan territory?

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Look you can prove me wrong but the ground reality is that Afghanistan is a strategik whirpool in which there are multiple actors. US is one , Nato is one , Pakistan is one,China is one,Iran is one ,Russia is one and even India is one. All have their purpose and objectives .
No International fporce can bring peice in Afganistan infact no one wants that country to be peacefull .Its a home to International proxy wars . By entering Afghanistan you would only suffer not succeed .

Pakistan today represents the power of Islamic World . Many Muslim countries look towards us as a source of hope .
If the invation of Pakistan by any force occurs it will spark a fire which would burn everything. There are certin rules of the game which are ment to be followed and India and US have broken those rules .The situation in southasia is getting volatile day by day.

Its gona be a bumby ride.

 

[batmannow]

INDIAN ARMY CANT FIGHT A WAR IN AFGHANISTAN!
i guss, they would be bar-b-qued , & could be eaten , without any souseges!
indian & US joint opreation in PAKISTANI area, & can bring more SHAME to "CAT COMMANDOS" after thier "MUMBAI ACTION" against 13 suspected islamic militants.

 

[shukla_swapnil]

INDIAN ARMY CANT FIGHT A WAR IN AFGHANISTAN!
i guss, they would be bar-b-qued , & could be eaten , without any souseges!
indian & US joint opreation in PAKISTANI area, & can bring more SHAME to "CAT COMMANDOS" after thier "MUMBAI ACTION" against 13 suspected islamic militants.

Well I just understood the defenition of TROLLING. How do I report posts. would someone enlighten me.

On the topic, I dont see it happening. India has always declined Armed participation in Afghanistan. That can only happen if Pakistan Fails as a State. And no I dont see that happening anytime in future, whatever the reports and statements may be. Pakistan Will stay. And India will continue to stay out of armed participation. It can only participate on the economic, political and social front.

 

[batmannow]

Well I just understood the defenition of TROLLING. How do I report posts. would someone enlighten me.

On the topic, I dont see it happening. India has always declined Armed participation in Afghanistan. That can only happen if Pakistan Fails as a State. And no I dont see that happening anytime in future, whatever the reports and statements may be. Pakistan Will stay. And India will continue to stay out of armed participation. It can only participate on the economic, political and social front.

shukla_swapnil;sir

its not trolling i was trying to adress the suspected abilities of indian special forces.
dear sir, there was a guy , who posted the "indian troops with US troops & thier joint training video clip, i guss he was trying to display , the suspected abilities of indian special forces.
yes you have a real & wise view, & i have respect for it!
well, if Pakistan Fails as a State. And no I dont see that happening anytime in future. i would like to wish you good luck.
for your realistic mind & its realistic aproch.

 

[Hellfire]

Look you can prove me wrong but the ground reality is that Afghanistan is a strategik whirpool in which there are multiple actors. US is one , Nato is one , Pakistan is one,China is one,Iran is one ,Russia is one and even India is one. All have their purpose and objectives .
No International fporce can bring peice in Afganistan infact no one wants that country to be peacefull .Its a home to International proxy wars . By entering Afghanistan you would only suffer not succeed .

Pakistan today represents the power of Islamic World . Many Muslim countries look towards us as a source of hope .
If the invation of Pakistan by any force occurs it will spark a fire which would burn everything. There are certin rules of the game which are ment to be followed and India and US have broken those rules .The situation in southasia is getting volatile day by day.

Its gona be a bumby ride.

why are you hell bent on anyone invading Pakistan? why cant you accept the fact that none wants to invade Pakistan and certainly NOT India for you are today our last line outside our land to be able to fight taliban without direct infusion of combat troops? are the implications on india of pakistan being pushed into corner or being brought to a brink where it fails as a state (if so) so difficult to understand and appreciate? cant you for once look at the angle that I and few others like Muse are trying to project - that today the greatest threat to Pakistan is not from India/US/any other rambos but from idiots who have hijacked islam and the right to interpret the teachings of the holy prophet for their ownselves and denied the same to the true believer?

NO SANE COUNTRY wants to invade PAKISTAN and India will put troops only and ONLY if PA collapses and Pakistan as a state fails to exist ...... period.

And I think that PA and GoP recognise the fact yet they need time to sieve their own structures before they truly turn on the heat .... on taliban and co.

 

[Hellfire]

INDIAN ARMY CANT FIGHT A WAR IN AFGHANISTAN!
i guss, they would be bar-b-qued , & could be eaten , without any souseges!
indian & US joint opreation in PAKISTANI area, & can bring more SHAME to "CAT COMMANDOS" after thier "MUMBAI ACTION" against 13 suspected islamic militants.

you actually have no idea of ops do you?

 

[Hellfire]

shukla_swapnil;sir

its not trolling i was trying to adress the suspected abilities of indian special forces.
dear sir, there was a guy , who posted the "indian troops with US troops & thier joint training video clip, i guss he was trying to display , the suspected abilities of indian special forces.
yes you have a real & wise view, & i have respect for it!
well, if Pakistan Fails as a State. And no I dont see that happening anytime in future. i would like to wish you good luck.
for your realistic mind & its realistic aproch.

you have lost the track of my posts so far ....... while for whom it was a reply very well understood what it was .......

and fighting in a built up area with riders of protection of historical monument and minimal civilian casualties does cause certain restricions .... not so in an area where collateral damage will not be a factor ...... please be realistic and while I may not call this as a trolling, but would attribute your post to poor understanding of combat operations ....

 

[Hellfire]

H2O3C4Nitrogen

Look you can prove me wrong but the ground reality is that Afghanistan is a strategik whirpool in which there are multiple actors. US is one , Nato is one , Pakistan is one,China is one,Iran is one ,Russia is one and even India is one. All have their purpose and objectives .
No International fporce can bring peice in Afganistan infact no one wants that country to be peacefull .Its a home to International proxy wars . By entering Afghanistan you would only suffer not succeed .

I agree that the task is difficult and I on my part have maintained India should stay away from Afghanistan ...... I certainly pray and hope that the PA and GOP have what it takes to carry the day through in their struggle against the terrorists ..... its Indias defence indirectly too

I dont think Pakistan will collapse .... but have raised Indian intervention only in case it does .... and that will cause the next horde to come into India .... and I am not an advocate of fighting them in my own country ... at no time is there an advocacy for Indian intervention at present or in future if PA is involved in operations already .....

Pakistan today represents the power of Islamic World . Many Muslim countries look towards us as a source of hope .

I wont exactly comment on the Islamic portions for I dont prefer to invoke religion in everything .... but I certainly look upon Pakistan and PA as last hope before madness takes reign over the world .....

Thanks

 

[BanglaBhoot]

RAW plots two attacks per week in Pakistan

ISLAMABAD—A suicide bombing at a crowded Shia mosque in Chakwal killed 22 people on Sunday, the latest incident is evidence of RAW’s conspiracy to create sectarian violence in Pakistan. RAW has deep links in Pakistani media as well as achieved an edge in cyber crimes. RAW sponsored media channels and websites have stared criticizing prominent Muslim religious leaders who participated in war of independence with mere motive to create sectarian tension and law and order situation in the country. RAW has instructed to its Pakistani and Afghan agents to carryout at least two attacks per week in Pakistan to destabilize Pakistan.

Meanwhile, taking advantage of threats by Pakistani Taliban commanders, RAW is issuing statement on their behalf to create unrest in Pakistan as well as to spoil image of Pakistan internationally. In the backdrop of series of RAW sponsored terrorist attacks in Pakistan, the US has escalated its campaign of missile strikes since August last year. RAW, in its recent move has issued a statement on the behalf of Baitullah mehsud that he is responsible for an attack on a US immigration assistance center in New York state in which 14 people were killed but FBI has ruled out that Mehsud was behind the attacks.

The Daily Mail - Daily News from Pakistan - Newspaper from Pakistan

 

[muse]

Rubbish! Baitullah claimed the NY attack becuase he wants US troops in Pakistan -- read "Management of Savagery" an al-Qaida manual to see the strategy, since what AQ wants is to disrupt local countries and finds it advantageous to poke the US in the eye so that the US comes after it - AQ then argues that the local govt is league with the US, is a slave of the US, is at war with it's own people on behalf of the US and with this argument seek to win the populace to it's side.