US vows it will take action if Beijing builds new South China Sea structures

[cnleio]

The whole world looking forward to War between U.S and China ? Sure there will be WWIII.

 

[LOGICAL BOSSS]

No war required only economic sanctions by usa is enough.same done with Russia

Very correct, Only sanctions are enough to bring china on knees in front of USA like Iran, When there all population will rest at home demanding food from there dictator.

 

[Zsari]

There are costal islets in East China Sea. There is no where Hainam and Paracel and Spratly on this map.

Here is Qing dynasty full map printed in China 1904. Hainan is last point of China territory.

You are posting that same fake map again? A Qing dynasty map without Manchuria? That map was not issued by the Qing court, but printed by private organization whose aim was to overthrow the Qing, which actually makes it an illegal org at the time, and the map was intended to show the Han area.

BTW, if you don't see islands in the SCS on the maps I've provided, you'll need better map reading skill.

 

[cochine]

Answer my question! Did the Chinese map dipict the whole territory of Annan?
I am NOT your friend, fool.

OK, you are my foe.

Where is Tonkin (Vietnam) on the map with border is separated from Qing (China) here ?

Oh, Stfu. You must be a sub-vietnamese. Ever heard of that?


Yes yes! Wow! We welcome sanctions.
Will bring us to our knees before the mighty India and the USA.
India! India! India!


On a serious note, are you f***ing 12?

I don't care what Chinese members troll on this forum.

 

[frequency]

CCP is under estimating the world. Another Germany in the making. CCP cannot afford to lose. But how many Chinese people are willing to fight for the goal of the CCP government? I doubt that all Chinese would believe in its government. There is a lot of rich & happy people in China who are not interested in the same cause as the CCP government.

CCP is acting alone. Most people in China know better than the CCP government.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

CCP is under estimating the world. Another Germany in the making. CCP cannot afford to lose. But how many Chinese people are willing to fight for the goal of the CCP government? I doubt that all Chinese would believe in its government. There is a lot of rich & happy people in China who are not interested in the same cause as the CCP government.

CCP is acting alone. Most people in China know better than the CCP government.

Well there is an easy way to find out.

Instead of constantly crying about what China is doing, actually DO something, e.g. fire a cruise missile and destroy one of the artificial islands. Raise sanctions. Start a war.

But guess what? Even the sole superpower America had to cry and run away after China seized territory from the Philippines in 2012, abandoning their "mutual defence treaty" ally and leaving them helpless while we took the Scarborough shoal. They abandoned their mutual defence treaty ally and weren't even able to sanction us for it.

If anyone wants a fight, they know exactly where we are on the map. If they continue to be gutless, then peace will continue as before. Luckily for all of us, they continue to be gutless. So peace continues.

 

[21stCentury]

CCP is under estimating the world. Another Germany in the making. CCP cannot afford to lose. But how many Chinese people are willing to fight for the goal of the CCP government? I doubt that all Chinese would believe in its government. There is a lot of rich & happy people in China who are not interested in the same cause as the CCP government.

CCP is acting alone. Most people in China know better than the CCP government.

I was not aware that South China Sea was the world, learn something new everyday! Another Germany in the making? Interesting comparison, but hardly the case. But we can say the United States is Nazi Germany 2.0 though. CCP cannot accord to lose? Well, I don't think ANY government would want to 'lose'. Don't worry about Chinese people willing to fight for their country, but ask yourself, how many whites are willing to die for their imperialist governments in another battle that does not concern you? You believe that not 100% Chinese in China believe in their government--which you'd be correct, since only about 80-90% support/happy with the government--which is the highest in the world still, not even your stolen canada comes close.

you need to worry about yourself and stay in your own lane because 1) you really have no idea what you are saying or have even the sightest clue on the world situation and how the world works. 2) you are filled up to the neck with anti-china / china-threat / yellow peril koolaid that you cannot even think logically or sensually. 3) its a domestic/regional issue

 

[LOGICAL BOSSS]

Well there is an easy way to find out.

Instead of constantly crying about what China is doing, actually DO something, e.g. fire a cruise missile and destroy one of the artificial islands. Raise sanctions. Start a war.

But guess what? Even the sole superpower America had to cry and run away after China seized territory from the Philippines in 2012, abandoning their "mutual defence treaty" ally and leaving them helpless while we took the Scarborough shoal. They abandoned their mutual defence treaty ally and weren't even able to sanction us for it.

If anyone wants a fight, they know exactly where we are on the map. If they continue to be gutless, then peace will continue as before. Luckily for all of us, they continue to be gutless. So peace continues.

Ya, very True US is only giving Lip service and China in front of him is continuing building.
Its better to take some action or just keep quite dont make hollow noise and disturbe everyone.

 

[AndrewJin]

Stop whining!
Pls go to those artificial islands and destroy them!
Don't "vow" "to do" "will", so sub-continent!

 

[jhungary]

All this thread so is how blind people are in real life.....I can safely assume 80% of the people that posted here did not actually read the article before posting.

as @Hamartia Antidote said, the US never said anything about taking action in the whole article with the guardian, in fact, you lot have all been duped by the OP cleverly changing the word on the title.

The OP article have an original title

US warns Beijing against building ‘great wall of self-isolation’

The OP changed the title to US vowed to take action, and a bunch of blind folks jump in and tore each other out, I wonder where you lot are when I started my youtube channel, I could have written Angelina Jolie Nude! Nude! Nude! on a fat guys dancing video and got tons of hits off you guys.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

All this thread so is how blind people are in real life.....I can safely assume 80% of the people that posted here did not actually read the article before posting.

as @Hamartia Antidote said, the US never said anything about taking action in the whole article with the guardian, in fact, you lot have all been duped by the OP cleverly changing the word on the title.

The OP article have an original title

US warns Beijing against building ‘great wall of self-isolation’

The OP changed the title to US vowed to take action, and a bunch of blind folks jump in and tore each other out, I wonder where you lot are when I started my youtube channel, I could have written Angelina Jolie Nude! Nude! Nude! on a fat guys dancing video and got tons of hits off you guys.

Apparently after the speech somebody asked him if China does a military buildup on Scarborough Shoal (or whatever the one next to the Philippines) what will happen. He said something like "We will have to take the appropriate actions".

Now suddenly that is interpreted crazily.

 

[jhungary]

Apparently after the speech somebody asked him if China does a military buildup on Scarborough Shoal what will happen. He said something like "We will have to take the appropriate actions".

Now suddenly that is interpreted crazily.

lol............diplomat being a diplomat. In effect the DS said nothing.

The term "Appropriate Action" is so board that it actually include taking no action is an appropriate action.

 

[frequency]

Well there is an easy way to find out.

Instead of constantly crying about what China is doing, actually DO something, e.g. fire a cruise missile and destroy one of the artificial islands. Raise sanctions. Start a war.

But guess what? Even the sole superpower America had to cry and run away after China seized territory from the Philippines in 2012, abandoning their "mutual defence treaty" ally and leaving them helpless while we took the Scarborough shoal. They abandoned their mutual defence treaty ally and weren't even able to sanction us for it.

If anyone wants a fight, they know exactly where we are on the map. If they continue to be gutless, then peace will continue as before. Luckily for all of us, they continue to be gutless. So peace continues.

You speak as if the Chinese government is god. Lol. They wont do anything. I highly doubt that they would risk everything they built for just to go to war with smaller countries. No countries are gutless. These countries are forming alliance to counter china's strength. The peace you speak off is temporary and not a permanent one. CCP is taking the ocean irregardless and respect of its neighbors. That is not how to build peace with people. To say Americans are gutless is an under statement. They have been to more battles than anyone else. Most of the battles the US foght were helping out her allies. Yet, China hasn't prove any of that.

I was not aware that South China Sea was the world, learn something new everyday! Another Germany in the making? Interesting comparison, but hardly the case. But we can say the United States is Nazi Germany 2.0 though. CCP cannot accord to lose? Well, I don't think ANY government would want to 'lose'. Don't worry about Chinese people willing to fight for their country, but ask yourself, how many whites are willing to die for their imperialist governments in another battle that does not concern you? You believe that not 100% Chinese in China believe in their government--which you'd be correct, since only about 80-90% support/happy with the government--which is the highest in the world still, not even your stolen canada comes close.

you need to worry about yourself and stay in your own lane because 1) you really have no idea what you are saying or have even the sightest clue on the world situation and how the world works. 2) you are filled up to the neck with anti-china / china-threat / yellow peril koolaid that you cannot even think logically or sensually. 3) its a domestic/regional issue

And you have a clue? So you speak for every Chinese person in the world? How do you know the 80 - 90% is not some made up numbers by the CCP. They can manipulate anything as everyone knows today. The fact that they can devalue its currency is just one example. The South China Sea doesnt belong to China. Sure it carries the name of China. It doesnt mean that its China. The world doesnt recognize it. The South China Sea should change to something less confusing.

You think the US is going to sit there and do nothing? Lol. China is in trouble, CCP is doing its job to cover up and continue to manipulate its people into believing that they are still strong. CCP is in a desperate position right now to regain its position. You cant put a gun to someone's head and expect peace. They are retaliating against CCP. There is one thing the Americans hate and that is communism and dictatorship. China is the Nazi here, not USA. You are confused. Nobody likes China as of now, thanks to your CCP incompetent. Everyone wants a peaceful resolution but your CCP government are too power hungry and greedy to care about the lives of Chinese people. If there is a war, you should thank your CCP government.

 

[Akasa]

I'm flabbergasted at the degree to which the US statement has been blown out of proportion.

Without given any indicators as to the level of commitment the US exhibits this cause, or its force of will to see the issue through to an end, the phrase "take action" could translate to anything from political to military operations.

 

[cochine]

You are posting that same fake map again? A Qing dynasty map without Manchuria? That map was not issued by the Qing court, but printed by private organization whose aim was to overthrow the Qing, which actually makes it an illegal org at the time, and the map was intended to show the Han area.

BTW, if you don't see islands in the SCS on the maps I've provided, you'll need better map reading skill.

Check again on the map of Qing China from 1904, is printed in China approved by Chinese Qing kingdom court.

China’s southeastern border ends at Hainan Island: Chinese Emperor’s map

VietNamNet Bridge – Another ancient document showing that China’s southeastern frontier ends at the Hainan Island has been found: a map that was drawn at the order of Emperor Kangxi of the Qing Dynasty in 1717.

An electronic version taken of the original map kept in the British Library. The photo is provided by the Library.

China’s territory included land and waters where Chinese emperors had sovereignty over and controlled. Therefore, the easiest way to see China’s official territory is to consider China’s historical documents or Chinese maps published by Chinese emperors.

The map that was drawn and published at the order of Emperor Kangxi in 1717 is such evidence. This is an official document of China, with international values that China can use to determine their sovereign lands.

This article aims to identify an event that Emperor Kangxi sent Western Jesuits everywhere for topographic surveying and mapping of the Qing Dynasty’s territory.

This work took almost 10 years and its result was the map of China entitled “Huangyu quan lan tu” in 1717.

According to this map, the southeastern border of China ends at the Hainan Island. This is a new contribution because the maps by the Qing Dynasty that have been used so far have unknown origin and are unofficial.

On March 28, 2014, the German Chancellor Angela Merkel gave the copy of the map drawn by Jean-Baptiste Bourguignon d'Anville and printed in Germany in 1735 to Chinese President Xi Jinping.

Introduction

The Huangyu quan lan tu map.



Before 1909, the Chinese government had not regarded the islands and the East Sea out of the southern island of Hainan as their waters and islands. At the same time, the Nguyen Lords and then Emperor Gia Long of Vietnam sent soldiers to the Paracel Islands.

This is recorded in the book “Phu Bien Tap Luc” by historian Le Quy Don (written from 1776-1784), in the official history in 1848, and foreigners also recorded the statement of sovereignty by Emperor Gia Long over the Paracel and Spratly Islands in an article published in 1837, and there were no objections from China.

Notably, many Chinese scholars have not used official historical documents or the official maps of the Chinese dynasties, especially the last Qing Dynasty to determine where the official border of China is. They have only used documents by travelers and explorers who only passed through and noted down what they heard. The maps they have used were all drawn by individuals, and not official maps.

To identify whether China previously considered Paracel and Spratly Islands as their territories, we should research the official historical documents of the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644), the Qing Dynasty (1644-1912) and the official maps of these two dynasties, because according to the International Court of Justice in 1933, the intention, will and effective implementation of the sovereignty must be at least identified in official historical documents and official documents.

The history of the Ming Dynasty and Qing Dynasty showed that China’s border ends at the Hainan Island. They did not care about the Southeast Asia Sea beyond Hainan, so China cannot say that the East Sea is their long historical area.

The documents noted by individuals are not considered evidence for sovereignty of their country in the areas where they passed.

In the Qing Dynasty, the Hainan Island included Qiong Zhu and Zhu Ya, later merged into the Qiong province. Thus the Paracel and Spratly Islands are not located within China’s border.

At that time, Vietnam’s Nguyen Lords (1558 - 1777) and the Nguyen Dynasty (1802-1862) exercised their continuous sovereignty over these islands without being opposed by China.

Under international law, a claimant for sovereignty based on the continuous exercise of sovereignty consists of two elements, and must prove that each element shows the intention and will to act as the owner, and some activities to prove that ownership.

In the case of Vietnam, the activities of Nguyen Lords in Paracel Islands were recorded by Vietnamese famous historian Le Quy Don in the official historical book entitled “Phu Bien Tap Luc”, and King Gia Long’s claims of sovereignty over the Paracels were recorded by Frenchman Taberd and published in 1837. The activities exercising Vietnam’s sovereignty over Paracel Islands conducted by the emperors after the death of Emperor Gia Long were also recorded in the official history.

Official map of Qing Dynasty

The Da qing yi tong quan tu map.




There are many ancient Chinese maps published in China until the end of the Qing Dynasty that did not consider Paracel and Spratly Islands as Chinese territory.

The map below is the official map of the Qing Dynasty that was drawn by Western priests at the order of Emperor Kangxi (1644-1912) over 10 years.

Therefore, the purpose of this article is to examine this map. We can say this is the first time this map is reviewed for the purpose of determining the border of China.

According to the article “Traditional Chinese Cartography and the Myth of Westernization” by Cordell DK Yee, before the Jesuit Matteo Ricci (1552-1610) and Michelle Ruggieri (1543-1607) went to Guangdong in 1583 for missionaries, the Chinese knew how to use squares to express the spacing on the map, but they did not know that the earth is not flat, but spherical, and they did not know how to use the Ptolemaic system for expression.

Priest Matteo Ricci introduced the precise technical drawing of the West into China and considered it as the way to carry missionary work. Ricci redrew the map of China based on Chinese information, using Western drawing principles.

These maps just copied the available information, not based on topographic surveying. Some Chinese were interested in these maps and reprinted them. However, they changed the maps by their artistic vision since, at that time, Chinese intellectuals considered maps as art objects like paintings and calligraphic works, not precise sciences.

Even Ricci put China in the middle of the world map, presumably to make the Chinese happy. Emperor Kangxi was very interested in Western science, like mathematics and astronomy. He built an observatory in 1644 and decided to use a western calendar from 19/10/1644 because it was more accurate.

In 1698 the Jesuits asked for Emperor Kangxi’s approval to measure topography of China to draw the Chinese map, saying that the old maps were inaccurate and even misleading.

According to Cordell D.K. Yee, in 1698, after hearing the proposal by Jesuit Dominique Parenin (1665-1759), Emperor Kangxi asked Joachim Bouvet (1656-1730) to return to France to recruit those who had good knowledge of astronomy, mathematics, geography and topography measurements and take them to China to help redraw China’s map.

He returned to China with 10 specialists. Emperor Kangxi asked these people to draw the map of Tianjin in 1705. The task was completed in 70 days. In 1707 the emperor told French specialists to draw the map of the area around Beijing, which was completed in six months. In 1708, they were instructed to draw the Great Wall and the task was completed in 1709.

After considering the above maps, Emperor Kangxi found that the Western techniques in mapping were much better than the traditional way of China so he assigned the Western Jesuits to draw the map of entire China. This map was completed in 1717, called the “Huangyu quan lan tu”.

This map is mentioned in the historical book of the Qing Dynasty – Qing shi gao - as follows: "In the Kangxi 58th year, the entire map is completed. This is a comprehensive map consisting of 32 sheets. There are separate maps of provinces, one sheet for one province.”

The "Qing shi gao” is though not entirely the official history because it was completed in 1927 after the Qing Dynasty had fallen, but it was compiled at the order by the Qing King so it can be considered official.

The woodblock print by proportion 1:1.200.000 in 1721 also has 32 sheets, one sheet for each province, just like the map in 1719. This woodblock was sent by the Western Jesuits to Europe and it was used as the basis for the book “Description, Geographique, Historique, Chronologique, Politique, et Physique de l'empire de la Chine” (1735) by Du Halde and the book “Nouvel atlas de la Chine” by JB Bourguignon.

In 1726, the Kang Hsi Imperial Encyclopedia was completed, consisting of 216 administrative area maps, without Mongolia and Tibetan. These maps were similar as the maps drawn by the Jesuits, but not having the longitude and latitude lines.

The Kang Hsi Imperial Encyclopedia was printed by the Qing Dynasty in 1728, with 5,020 episodes, including illustrations and writings from the earliest times to the modern period, written under the Kangxi and Yongzheng dynasties. This encyclopedia includes 800,000 pages and 100 million words and there are only 60 printed copies.

The Chinese map was reprinted in Traditional Chinese Cartography and the Myth of Westernization by Cordell DK Yee as mentioned above (see photo). The photo also shows that the Chinese territory to the southeast ends at the Hainan Island.

The “Huangyu quan lan tu” map is the foundation for other maps published later in China, which do not have clear origin.

Here are some maps that are kept in Western libraries, which can be referred to online. All show that China or Guangdong province does not have the Paracel or Spratly Islands:

1. Huang yu quan lan fen sheng tu map is archived in the US Library of Congress. This map can be found online. This map was donated to the US Library of Congress in 1884, and the year of publication is 1693. The map was drawn by Western principles so it could not be made before the Emperor Kangxi asked Western priests to draw the new China’s map in 1705. The year of publication 1693 should be a mistake. The map must be drawn after 1717, after the Huangyu quan lan tu map was printed and it seems to be a copy.

2. Da qing yi tong quan tu map is currently stored in the National Library of Australia. This map, based on analysis by Cordell DK Yee (mentioned above) as well as maps in the Kang Hsi Imperial Encyclopedia, are just the copies of the official map Huangyu quan lan tu, without the two provinces of Xinjiang and Tibet, but it was drawn in the combined style of Western and Chinese. This map consists of 12 individual parts; part 1 is the whole of China; part 12 is Guangdong, which ends at the Hainan Island.

3. Huangyu Quantu is the official map published in late Qing Dynasty. In 1890 the Qing government wanted to standardize the mapping of provinces and administrative regions so it set up “huidianquan” and told these huidianquan to draw local maps, using the Western method, but many localities redrew the maps based on the maps of the Jesuits because they did not understand the drawing principles.

As a result, the Huangyu Quantu, 1899, in Qinding Da Qing huidian, includes 24 sets (Beijing Huidianguan, 1899). It is the official map because it was printed by Huidianguan.

Conclusion

It can be concluded that there is a map that was drawn by Western Jesuits at the order of Emperor Kangxi, i.e., China used to have a formal map.

According to this map, China’s border ends at the island of Hainan and nothing has changed then. This is also consistent with the history of China during the Ming Dynasty (History of Ming) and the Qing Dynasty (Draft History of Qing).

Ho Bach Thao, a Vietnamese researcher, had researched the History of Ming and the Draft History of Qing and found that these books did not mention Paracel and Spratly Islands and also showed that China’s border ends at Hainan Island.

The China map with the nine-dash line was made in 1947 by Bai Meichu, an official of the Chinese People's Republic (now Taiwan).

This homemade map that does not reflect the true history of China’s border, which has been used by the Chinese state, contrary to international law, to claim its sovereignty over the islands and sea areas within the U-shaped line, covering up to 85% of the East Sea.

They have used unorthodox and vague materials about the waters where Chinese people passed to prove that these waters belong to China from the Han Dynasty (206 BC - 220 AD).

This claim is completely contrary to the history of the Ming and Qing Dynasties and the map drawn at the order of the Qing Emperor Kangxi, which was drawn over 10 years by Western priests.

Until 1909, China - and only the government of Guangdong province - sent people to learn about the Paracel and it was not until 1952 that Zhou Enlai raised claims over the Spratly Islands for the first time.

Given that, Paracel and Spratly belonging to China since ancient times is fabricated and untrue.

Vu Quang Viet