US violates int’l laws; moves USS Enterprise into Pakistani water.

[T-Rex]

Who is talking about China doing anything? I thought we were talking about US. If you are here to press random keys and feel good, then please continue. Stop quoting me and writing irrelevant answers.

"China will be factored in when they plan to do something stupid" this is what you said. You don't like being quoted because you know you say stupid things!

 

[Caine]

Suppose some hot headed zealot PAF Commander starts shooting down US drones. Don’t you think having a powerful US naval strike group within 70 nautical miles of your cost line is a cause for concern?

Are you really serious? You are saying that Pakistani military has people in the position of power who are able to go against the chain of command and take unilateral decisions like this.. And then you folks cry murder when the West claims that Pakistani Nukes are unsafe (after all such commanders would be in charge of operational functioning of those nukes)

 

[Fieldmarshal]

CVN-65 Moves Into Pakistani Waters! - Naval Update June 14, 2012 - YouTube

the video above confirms that the americans aircraft carrier is in our territorial waters

 

[Mav3rick]

First of all, this thread is BOGUS !!! DO YOU HEAR, BOGUS !!!! Nowhere in the world but on the rag on the op's first post does it say ANYTHING about the Enterprise being anywhere near Pakistan. SECONDLY... even IF it were where the rag said it was, it's position would be in INTERNATIONAL WATERS !!! NOTHING ILLEGAL !!! So there !!

Was this not covered in the last line of the first para of my post?

 

[T-Rex]

Are you really serious? You are saying that Pakistani military has people in the position of power who are able to go against the chain of command and take unilateral decisions like this.. And then you folks cry murder when the West claims that Pakistani Nukes are unsafe (after all such commanders would be in charge of operational functioning of those nukes)

Listen, mr. zionazi, the possibility of a soldier or officer losing his sanity exists in every army and more in the US army or else we wouldn't hear of Abu Gharib. Yes, Abu Gharib, does it ring any bell, mr. zionazi? It should and that's why we worry more about the safety of the US nukes!

 

[Mav3rick]

Such a breakdown of discipline would be unprecedented, and dangerous on multiple levels, not just for PAF but for Pakistan too.

You mean defending one's country against illegal foreign activity that causes death and destruction is.....?

I agree with and share your concerns. Pakistan-US relationship is full of contradictions but we are not thank god anywhere near being bracketed with Saddam's Iraq or North Korea or even Iran. Despite our problems Pakistan has a very deep relationship going back now over 150 years with the Anglo-Saxon world. The USA and it's progenitor UK have a deep symbiotic link with Pakistan. That this forum uses English and most of educated Pakistan uses English as a medium underscores this.

There are millions of us living in the Anglo-Saxon world and US-UK are not going to easily pull the trigger on us. Most of our trade is with the West. Check PIA flight routes and you will see most flights converge in particular on Anglo Saxon countries or other Western countries.

Yes things are difficult now but the day we head towards real hostilities I think we would have to contend with lot more than USS Enterprise. Strait of Hormuz and the sea route pass Gwadar is the 'pathway' for ship going to and from Persian Gulf. So we should not be alarmed with routine movements of US ships are always moving about all over the world.

Yes, I do however take note of your comment about some crazy 'Zaid Hamid' type in uniform shooting down drones. I also worry about another 9/11 type incident and this time it is traced to Pakistan. Yes, than I would be terrified and scramble to get my family out of Pakistan .............. fast.

And not because Pakistan would be flattened ( there might be targeted surgical strikes ) but because the West would simply sanction and starve us to death.

English is 'the' international language. Hence the use on this forum.

By the way, was the west able to starve 1 Billion Chinese to death? Use that as a case study and be advised that there is a higher power then the US!

 

[LeGenD]

Ok, I won't speak of Afghanistan.

But, do you really think your Government would be stupid enough to invade Pakistan? A Nation that knows nothing else then to fight? When we are not fighting India or a Super Power, we are fighting amongst ourselves. By God, for our unity, nothing can be better then a US invasion. You are speaking of 1 A/C carrier, I must advise you to engage Pakistan with all your A/C carriers & ground troops simultaneously if you are serious, otherwise it's just a joke.

Your assessment is illogical. No one is invading Pakistan. We are witnessing pressure tactics.

And you make it sound like as if Pakistani people have nothing better to do accept fighting? Please, stop generalizing about the whole society. You think that Americans buy this bullshit? They know our reality, bro. Time to wake-up.

You have no clue about horrors of occupation. Ask those who have lost their homes and families during occupations. Also, do some digging on battles that took place in Fallujah. These events remind us that entire cities can be destroyed for the sake of crushing rebellions, if the need arises.

I appreciate your patriotism. But one should not be blind to the ground realities.

The day they attempt a drone strike without our authorization will be the day the drones will be shot down. The US Government officials have repeatedly stated that drone strikes are permitted by Government of Pakistan.

Many drone strikes have taken place without our complicity in recent times. Even OPN took place without our complicity. You think that Kayani is 'pretending to be mad' at USA? Their is a limit to deception.

CIA seems to have employed many informers in Pakistan who give Intel when ISI does not. Hints have been given in some reports.

Just read this: http://dawn.com/2011/02/27/isi-seeks-data-about-cia-operatives/

CIA will never give this data.

Bro, it is time for you to face the truth. Stop assuming about incompetency of others.

Why do not you understand? We are not waging a war on anyone but if a war is brought upon us, well, we will take it on with whatever we have. We might be able to sneak in some very nasty surprises.

Of course, Pakistan will use its assets to defend itself. Their is no need to pinpoint this.

However, since we are dealing with USA here; expect some nasty surprises from it too. You need to understand that Anti-Pakistani feelings and sentiments are on the rise in US populace. And this is not a good sign for us.

 

[Mav3rick]

Your assessment is illogical. No one is invading Pakistan. We are witnessing pressure tactics.

And you make it sound like as if Pakistani people have nothing better to do accept fighting? Please, stop generalizing about the whole society. You think that Americans buy this bullshit? They know our reality, bro. Time to wake-up.

You have no clue about horrors of occupation. Ask those who have lost their homes and families during occupations. Also, do some digging on battles that took place in Fallujah. These events remind us that entire cities can be destroyed for the sake of crushing rebellions, if the need arises.

I appreciate your patriotism. But one should not be blind to the ground realities.

One should also learn to stand tall instead of bending over just because the adversary is strong. One should grow enough guts and pride to stand eye to eye when threatened instead of trying to hide in a hole.

What did Iraq have that could stop American Tanks & Attack Helicopters? What did Iraq have that could annihilate US bases around her? What did Iraq have that could defend her against Aircraft carriers and what will did Iraqi military and population have to resist the invasion?

As for the comment on generalization, I pray that you wake up and look around. Not a single city is at peace, we are in a constant state of battle/war amongst ourselves. Baloch hate Pashtun and Punjabi, Pashtun hate Baloch and Punjabi, Sindhi hates Mohajir and Mohajir hates Sindhi, Punjabi hates everyone else. When have we lived in peace and harmony? We have united only when we have been engaged in wars with India. Perhaps we need another war to unite us and perhaps the US needs a lesson that not every nation is a piece of cake!

 

[LeGenD]

One should also learn to stand tall instead of bending over just because the adversary is strong. One should grow enough guts and pride to stand eye to eye when threatened instead of trying to hide in a hole.

Bro, one has to think differently when he or she is in the leading position in this context. Pakistan has lot of internal issues to contend with. And Pakistan military is not strong enough to counter US military threat.

When you have to decide about the fate of the whole country, you need to see between the lines. This is the perspective that I am trying to explain to you.

Your perception is suitable on individual basis. But not the whole society. You do not speak for the whole society.

Why Pakistan has little say in its affairs? Because of its poor economic situation, internal corruption, and incompetency in handling of foreign affairs. We cannot beg and demand at the same time. We need to stand on our feet first and address our internal issues at hand. Only then the whole world will take us seriously. Until then, tread carefully.

What did Iraq have that could stop American Tanks & Attack Helicopters? What did Iraq have that could annihilate US bases around her? What did Iraq have that could defend her against Aircraft carriers and what will did Iraqi military and population have to resist the invasion?

And what did Iraq accomplished with its enmity with USA? Entire country reduced to stone age levels?

Why do Pakistani people love to give the example of Saddam? Why do they not consider the example of Erdogan?

Saddam is an EPIC example of leadership incompetency in the Islamic world. Musharraf was considerably wiser then him.

Just look at the history of recent wars; Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya. All of these nations had internal issues and US exploited these internal issues. The situation of Pakistan is similar actually.

As for the comment on generalization, I pray that you wake up and look around. Not a single city is at peace, we are in a constant state of battle/war amongst ourselves. Baloch hate Pashtun and Punjabi, Pashtun hate Baloch and Punjabi, Sindhi hates Mohajir and Mohajir hates Sindhi, Punjabi hates everyone else. When have we lived in peace and harmony? We have united only when we have been engaged in wars with India.

Please, do not use the situation of Karachi to represent that of the whole country. Lahore, in particular, is very peaceful.

You talk about fighting a war with a superpower? First teach this nation to endure hardships. People all over the country are protesting over load-shedding and businesses have slowed down in Summer (many people are not willing to come out of their cosy air-conditioned setups to engage in shopping activities).

Perhaps we need another war to unite us and perhaps the US needs a lesson that not every nation is a piece of cake!

US have fought in lot of wars and even world wars. A single Pakistan cannot teach anything significant to it. In fact, US have succeeded in humiliating Pakistan in every manner possible without breaking a sweat.

You make it sound like as if Pakistani populace have got nothing to loose in a war. Don't generalize about the whole society.

We should learn to be more competent in handling of our foreign affairs. In this manner, we will be able to make more friends then enemies. We should learn a thing or two from India.

 

[niaz]

Are you really serious? You are saying that Pakistani military has people in the position of power who are able to go against the chain of command and take unilateral decisions like this.. And then you folks cry murder when the West claims that Pakistani Nukes are unsafe (after all such commanders would be in charge of operational functioning of those nukes)

On June 8, 1967 Israeli Air force attacked and severely damaged USS Liberty killing 34 and wounding 170. On March 17 1987, Iraqi Mirage F-1 fighter fired two Exocet AM-39s on the USS Stark. On both these occasions it is doubtful that the attackers were totally innocent, at least in case of USS Stark, the same aircraft returned for the second pass.

Even though an official apology was made and Israel paid compensation, I am sure that Israelis wanted to send a clear message to all vessels including the US Navy, not to interfere in their fight with the Arabs.

US have the habit of acting as a bully and doing what they want regardless. Have you forgotten that USS Vincennes shot down Iranian Airbus A 300 (Flight 655 to Dubai)) but never admitted responsibility nor apologized to Iran for this obvious mistake?

US killed 24 Pakistanis because on the spot commander decided to go ahead despite PA informing US Command in Kabul. Pakistani Army still thinks that it was a deliberate act and that US Kabul Command thought that they would get away with it. US is violating Pakistani territory with impunity day in and day out. All the political parties are against the drone attacks. There have been resolutions in National assembly against the attacks.

It is an insult to the Pakistan’s sovereignty and I am personally aware that there are many in Pakistan who want to shoot down the drones. Suppose Cubans start sending UAV’s to Florida, where US protects Cuban insurgents; how would US react? Why do you think it is beyond the realm of possibility that a PAF pilot gets riled up and decides to down the drones?

US-Pak relations are near breaking point. In the unlikely event that it was to happen, US strike force is the obvious tool for response. That is why the news of USS Enterprise near Pakistan coast was sensationalized.

By the way, if it were to happen, it would no doubt have serious consequences for Pakistan but the pilot who does it will instantly become a national hero. (Remember Do Little raid on Japan?)

Please understand that I am not a mad zealot who is saying that Pakistan should start shooting down the US drones and take on the might of the US and NATO countries. I am actually in favour of resuming the NATO supplies. My point is that such possibility cannot be ruled out that US strike force near the Pakistani waters is definitely a veiled threat.

I have nothing else to add on this subject.

 

[SinoChallenger]

I thought China and Pakistan had road connection through the Karakoram Highway. Building railways will take time and the problem is the wicked wolf isn't going to wait that long to strike. Something has to be worked out for the time being just to keep the wolf down for a while. The wolf has clearly sensed its doom not too far away if China is allowed to become stronger, so it has decided to strike before its too late.

You are right. KKH is not quite as good as a railway but better than nothing (because the PLAN is strong but not strong enough to face off with USN in the indian ocean). KKH was made impassable in 2010 by a landslide but reconstruction will be complete next year.

Chinese news on KKH

Once KKH is up and running again, China can start sending mobile SAMs like HQ-16 and coastal ASM like C-803 to Pakistan.

Wouldn't it be easier for a superpower like....say the U.S. to destroy a highway than it would to halt shipping on the high seas.

The superpower would need to penetrate a hornet's nest of HQ-16 SAMs How many B-2s and F-22s are you willing to sacrifice?

US have fought in lot of wars and even world wars. A single Pakistan cannot teach anything significant to it. In fact, US have succeeded in humiliating Pakistan in every manner possible without breaking a sweat.

You make it sound like as if Pakistani populace have got nothing to loose in a war. Don't generalize about the whole society.

We should learn to be more competent in handling of our foreign affairs. In this manner, we will be able to make more friends then enemies. We should learn a thing or two from India.

That's sad. You sound like somebody without any pride. Pakistan stood up to the bully by cutting off the Afghanistan supply route and now the bully is in great pain (and so are you )! That's why USA is lashing out at Pakistan.

Stand strong, Pakistan, and keep squeezing those testicles until USA squeals!

We got SOMETHING TO KILL everything. Another book we wrote...

Some people just need killing.

Look at this American psycho talking trash about killing Muslims defending their country. I've always said China needs to give suitcase sized nukes to jihadi forces to execute covert missions against capital cities of Western countries. One suitcase nuke explosion in NYC and one in Tel Aviv will show them there is a price for their globe trotting adventures.

 

[peace lover]

Chinese secret Naval base in Gwadar.......If U need further info go ask China......cuz they are the OEM's of the carrier Killerz ......

really man u can sell off your country to china just for the sake of an argument.

 

[LeGenD]

You are right. KKH is not quite as good as a railway but better than nothing (because the PLAN is strong but not strong enough to face off with USN in the indian ocean). KKH was made impassable in 2010 by a landslide but reconstruction will be complete next year.

Chinese news on KKH

Correct.

Once KKH is up and running again, China can start sending mobile SAMs like HQ-16 and coastal ASM like C-803 to Pakistan.

Such a move will not go unnoticed. Do not assume that China can do everything and get away with it. Their are always red lines somewhere.

The superpower would need to penetrate a hornet's nest of HQ-16 SAMs How many B-2s and F-22s are you willing to sacrifice?

None of these Jets are easy to hit. Specially F-22 is not a joke.

When country wide 'radar jamming' will be employed, all of these SAM systems will be blind.

It is no longer possible for China to help other countries against USA in the same fashion, as it managed to during the COLD WAR period. Reason is that China and US are major business partners now.

That's sad. You sound like somebody without any pride. Pakistan stood up to the bully by cutting off the Afghanistan supply route and now the bully is in great pain (and so are you )! That's why USA is lashing out at Pakistan.

Being a Chinese, I can understand your confidence. Pakistan is not in the position to dictate its terms with such confidence. And I am a realist by nature.

Yes, I admire Kayani's stand. But I also believe that he has played a role in damaging Pak-US relationship by refusing to do anything about NW.

Stand strong, Pakistan, and keep squeezing those testicles until USA squeals!

It is a gamble. US can loose patience too. And it falls short in this aspect, if you have focused on the history.

Even if US apologizes, it will find a way to hit back some time later on. This is the kind of nation we are talking about.

To be honest, elections are coming near. And this is why US is silent. When elections will be over, then we see some real muscle-flexing.

And their might be something going on behind-the-scenes to resolve the current issue. Only time will tell.

 

[Mav3rick]

Bro, one has to think differently when he or she is in the leading position in this context. Pakistan has lot of internal issues to contend with. And Pakistan military is not strong enough to counter US military threat.

When you have to decide about the fate of the whole country, you need to see between the lines. This is the perspective that I am trying to explain to you.

Your perception is suitable on individual basis. But not the whole society. You do not speak for the whole society.

Why Pakistan has little say in its affairs? Because of its poor economic situation, internal corruption, and incompetency in handling of foreign affairs. We cannot beg and demand at the same time. We need to stand on our feet first and address our internal issues at hand. Only then the whole world will take us seriously. Until then, tread carefully.

You, my friend are quite selfish. You are perfectly fine with the terror war the US has unleashed on your countrymen through drones simply because it has not effected you so far. With a military that is bending over, and a Government that is bending over.....all we need is people like to complete the triad in favor of the US. You are in awe of something that you have never really witnessed. You speak on American technology and power, well that power and technology was shred to pieces by the inferior Indian Tanks at Sialkot and if not for the superior skills of PAF pilots, IAF would have ripped through PAF with inferior Jets!

Just because the US and NATO forces ripped through Iraqi defenses that were 30 years old and quite likely inferior versions of the the equipment used by Soviet Union or China and meant to be used against Iran instead of USA you think the USA can rip through anything? If that was indeed the case, the US would atleast have allowed Israel to attack the Nuclear sites of Iran! Serbs were able to shoot down a B-2 bomber with conventional air defense system....what else do you need?

And most importantly, when would you begin to defend your country against these illegal activities? When these drones start killing citizens in Lahore & Karachi?

And what did Iraq accomplished with its enmity with USA? Entire country reduced to stone age levels?

Why do Pakistani people love to give the example of Saddam? Why do they not consider the example of Erdogan?

Saddam is an EPIC example of leadership incompetency in the Islamic world. Musharraf was considerably wiser then him.

Just look at the history of recent wars; Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya. All of these nations had internal issues and US exploited these internal issues. The situation of Pakistan is similar actually.

Are you serious? Did you even try to get my point up there? Did I not mean the exact same thing that Iraq had nothing to fight the US with? They could not shoot down Attack Helicopters, they could not hold advancing armored tank divisions, they could not communicate because their 30 year old communications equipment was facing effecting jamming and they had nothing to fight the air wars with, not even decent SAM systems.

Would Iraq have gone down so easily had they access to technology that could take down US aerial vehicles? Annihilate American armour dead in their tracks? Had effective communications? You speak on internal issues, did the US not have major internal issues when they began their fight for independence? Did the war not unite the whole nation? Sometimes larger threats are the perfect ingredients to unify nations for common cause!

Please, do not use the situation of Karachi to represent that of the whole country. Lahore, in particular, is very peaceful.

You talk about fighting a war with a superpower? First teach this nation to endure hardships. People all over the country are protesting over load-shedding and businesses have slowed down in Summer (many people are not willing to come out of their cosy air-conditioned setups to engage in shopping activities).

You want to teach this nation a lesson in enduring hardships? A nation that return to dark homes, after 12 hours or more of labour, in unbearably hot nights and tries to sleep their aches away without even a fan? Did you not see what happened in Europe and America on job cuts? Did you not see what happened in UK when university fees were hiked up? And you want your nation to take 20 hours of deliberate load shedding sitting down? Seriously?

And dude, how far away from reality are you seriously? Do you have any idea what's happening in Baluchistan? In Sindh (interior and in cities)? In KP & NWFP? And now even in Punjab? If you really meant what you wrote then you have not been in Pakistan for a long long time!

US have fought in lot of wars and even world wars. A single Pakistan cannot teach anything significant to it. In fact, US have succeeded in humiliating Pakistan in every manner possible without breaking a sweat.

You make it sound like as if Pakistani populace have got nothing to loose in a war. Don't generalize about the whole society.

We should learn to be more competent in handling of our foreign affairs. In this manner, we will be able to make more friends then enemies. We should learn a thing or two from India.

The US has not been able to cough up guts to hash out the same treatment to North Korea or Iran....ever wonder why? It's because first it purchased our military & political leadership and only then was able to 'buy' its way. This is a Pakistan that returned an alleged stealth American chopper that had invaded out country and carried out an illegal operation humiliating the nation in the whole world branding us OBL shelterers whereas the same country refused to return Tomahawks during the 90's when relations were not good! Basically it depends on how well fed our leadership and that decides what the US is entitled to......not her superpower status!

Again, I must correct you. It is not competence that we need because even our traitors are competent. What we need is patriots in important foreign places for immediate rebuttals and corrections. OBL commission report, if ever made public, will prove beyond doubt that OBL mission was a false flag operation and that our military and political leadership was complicit in it.

 

[Esc8781]

You, my friend are quite selfish. You are perfectly fine with the terror war the US has unleashed on your countrymen through drones simply because it has not effected you so far. With a military that is bending over, and a Government that is bending over.....all we need is people like to complete the triad in favor of the US. You are in awe of something that you have never really witnessed. You speak on American technology and power, well that power and technology was shred to pieces by the inferior Indian Tanks at Sialkot and if not for the superior skills of PAF pilots, IAF would have ripped through PAF with inferior Jets! What are you talking about that is BS that the serbs shot down a b-2, it was a f-117 that had a malfunction with its payload! BTW it was already 30 years old

Just because the US and NATO forces ripped through Iraqi defenses that were 30 years old and quite likely inferior versions of the the equipment used by Soviet Union or China and meant to be used against Iran instead of USA you think the USA can rip through anything? If that was indeed the case, the US would atleast have allowed Israel to attack the Nuclear sites of Iran! Serbs were able to shoot down a B-2 bomber with conventional air defense system....what else do you need?

And most importantly, when would you begin to defend your country against these illegal activities? When these drones start killing citizens in Lahore & Karachi?





Are you serious? Did you even try to get my point up there? Did I not mean the exact same thing that Iraq had nothing to fight the US with? They could not shoot down Attack Helicopters, they could not hold advancing armored tank divisions, they could not communicate because their 30 year old communications equipment was facing effecting jamming and they had nothing to fight the air wars with, not even decent SAM systems.

Would Iraq have gone down so easily had they access to technology that could take down US aerial vehicles? Annihilate American armour dead in their tracks? Had effective communications? You speak on internal issues, did the US not have major internal issues when they began their fight for independence? Did the war not unite the whole nation? Sometimes larger threats are the perfect ingredients to unify nations for common cause!





You want to teach this nation a lesson in enduring hardships? A nation that return to dark homes, after 12 hours or more of labour, in unbearably hot nights and tries to sleep their aches away without even a fan? Did you not see what happened in Europe and America on job cuts? Did you not see what happened in UK when university fees were hiked up? And you want your nation to take 20 hours of deliberate load shedding sitting down? Seriously?

And dude, how far away from reality are you seriously? Do you have any idea what's happening in Baluchistan? In Sindh (interior and in cities)? In KP & NWFP? And now even in Punjab? If you really meant what you wrote then you have not been in Pakistan for a long long time!





The US has not been able to cough up guts to hash out the same treatment to North Korea or Iran....ever wonder why? It's because first it purchased our military & political leadership and only then was able to 'buy' its way. This is a Pakistan that returned an alleged stealth American chopper that had invaded out country and carried out an illegal operation humiliating the nation in the whole world branding us OBL shelterers whereas the same country refused to return Tomahawks during the 90's when relations were not good! Basically it depends on how well fed our leadership and that decides what the US is entitled to......not her superpower status!

Again, I must correct you. It is not competence that we need because even our traitors are competent. What we need is patriots in important foreign places for immediate rebuttals and corrections. OBL commission report, if ever made public, will prove beyond doubt that OBL mission was a false flag operation and that our military and political leadership was complicit in it.

What are you talking about that is BS that the serbs shot down a b-2, it was a f-117 that had a malfunction with its payload! BTW it was already 30 years old