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US urges India to avoid Pakistan-centric policies

No offence buddy, but its true. And not just for Pakistan either. Its an instrument of power that was used in each and every war during ancient and medeival times. Don't get me wrong, it might have sounded offensive, but wasn't meant to be so.

All I was trying to say is that the islamic conquest of Pakistan is nothing to be proud of for modern Paksitanis.

Why not! There was no conquest of Pakistan it was a conquest of India as it was known at that time! This same conquest set the stage for the creation of PAkistan!!! Why can't you understand that!

Pakistan would not have been formed if they did not bring Islam to the region and we did not accept it as our religion!!! Please try to remember that! Pakistan was created for Islam and for muslims to live free from oppression! That Islam would not have come to Pakistan without these great conquests!
 
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You seem to be on some Anti-Islamic Rampage! I must admit that I did not comprehend your idiocy! We wonder why the muslim population in India talks about intolerence! I think I should send this post to my cousins and ask them what they think about it and if all of you are like that...

So let me get this straight:

Pakistan gets raided by Arabs, looted and pillaged, then its people get converted to a foreign religion, mostly because a submissive muslim population is so much easier to rule, and finally an islamic empire is established.

Something to be proud of eh? Atleast the hindus had the balls to stick to their beliefs rather than get converted.

You forgot that many towns and cities surrendered themselves on the basis of either paying Jizya or even decided to convert to Islam! We aren't proud of the pillaging and looting as we are not proud of the pillagers and looters before them (who were Hindus ;)) but we are proud that they brought Islam to us and our ancestors were wise enough to see the truth! ;) Woah, the Islamic empire did not need a submissive muslim population but the willpower of the leaders and warriors was enough for you guys to handle... you're talking like all Hindus were discontent with their rule! Most Hindus and Muslims managed to live peacefully at that time under these leaders firm grip!

So you are suggesting muslims did not have balls and were forced to accept Islam against their wishes and they accepted because of fear?... I can only laugh at your idiocy! Islam is still the fastest growing religion in terms of conversions so please think before you make idiotic comments! Most people accepted Islam of their own free will! True there were some conversions but most people did convert of their own free will!!!

So Hindus had balls? If you say so they did then... i'll try to accept it no matter what my views on the selected topic are... :D

When spain was conquered there were barely any muslims in Spain! When Spain fell nearly the whole population of Spain was Muslim! How do you suppose so many people converted to Islam? Through forced conversion I suppose?... People cannot be forced to change things such as allegiance and religion! I would rather die than do it so please stop making yourself appear an Idiot!

You guys narrow brain cannot comprehend the fact that I judge each islamic ruler on his own merit, and not clump them all together as "muslim oppressors" or "conquerers" depending on POV.
Of course India was conquered, but some later muslims rulers were highly secular for their time and ensured the prosperity of their subjects. They are heroes. Get it?

Ya. ya please keep judging on your own merit! You are Khalifa!

For you guys, Muslims = Pakistanis = dominators of evil pagan hindus = heroes. Well lemme tell you, life isn't that simple. Those muslims dominated the people of modern pakistan and converted them before they even reached modern india. So keep your cockiness in your pockets and learn a little humility.

Did I say that? I said for us they are people without whom Pakistan could not have been formed and we could not have gained our identity as muslims and Pakistanis of which we are very proud today! We converted of our own free will! And many of us were the ones who brought Islam after converting ourselves! Many muslims came from Persia and Arabia came and settled in India! Did you simply decide to leave them out of the equation because they did not suit your ideas? Many of us have ancestors in Arabia and Persia... Alvi and Rafsanji families (last name) for example are families whose ancestors migrated from Persia!

Yeah, Pakistan was created because Muslims could not stand being out of power. They knew that in democratic India, muslims will have to live on par with hindus, and would be unable to dominate much longer. So they demanded a separated well where they could be the ruling frogs.(You guys must have heard the frog in the well fable rite?)

Muslims could not stand Indian oppression and bad treatment and thats why they shifted to Pakistan as they remembered the days of the Mughals when they were protected from Hindu extremists ready to exterminate them not because of their lust for power! We wanted freedom to practice our faith freely and be free from Hindu bias and discrimination! We wanted a homeland for ourselves and to call our own so that we would'nt be treated as second-class citizens and deprived of our basic rights by the pro-hindu police and the power-hungry government! I am proud today that I am free from these senseless policies and rage directed towards my religion. I know how it feels to suffer just because you are a muslim and I am glad that I made the right decision and chose Pakistan as my Nation where I am accepted and not discriminated against! Pakistan truelly is the best thing that happened to me! I would rather die than give up the freedom I have today!

You have proven it indeed! I understand what my family in India goes through every single day! You are an intolerant people who do not care about muslims and see them with contempt!!! Your implying of "muslims not having balls" gives me a view of your intolerant nature! My family in India is suffering because they pledged allegiance to a Nation that does not care about them and keeps wanting them to get lost!
 
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Why not! There was no conquest of Pakistan it was a conquest of India as it was known at that time! This same conquest set the stage for the creation of PAkistan!!! Why can't you understand that!

But wasn't it your ancestors who were conquered? Btw, it wasn't known as "India" at the time.
It was known by whatever name the local ruler gave the area.

The ruthless conquests and forced conversions made it muslims majority and led to the destruction of all "pagan" temples, symbols and the like.

Besides, it had very little to do with the creation of Pakistan, which was a direct result of Jinnah's mistrust of the Congress and perhaps hunger for power, which came, well, a lot later.

Pakistan would not have been formed if they did not bring Islam to the region and we did not accept it as our religion!!! Please try to remember that! Pakistan was created for Islam and for muslims to live free from oppression! That Islam would not have come to Pakistan without these great conquests!

Pakistan's formation is very recent and is the result of the politics of the time. It was not a direct result of some thousand year old conquests.

Pakistan was created in order to ensure that muslims remained in power. Jinnah was too scared imho to live in a country where Hindus and muslims were on par, afraid that muslims would no longer be the ruling class,so in the absence of any other viable alternative, he decided to painfully divide the region and cause the deaths of millions of people.
 
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But wasn't it your ancestors who were conquered? Btw, it wasn't known as "India" at the time.
It was known by whatever name the local ruler gave the area.

I can't believe this! After I type all that you give me this rubbish again! Did you even read the post back there? Why did you decide to leave out that huge post back there? Was it detailing the truth only too well? Tell me do you ever feel guilty for what you have done and are doing? Do you just live to deny? No matter what information, what facts we present to you, you will keep saying the same idiotic things! Is it any use arguing with you Indians because I end up repeating exactly the same thing and giving new facts for it...

My ancestors could have come with the Persians or the Arabs or could have been local inhabitants of India! But no one knows all about his family links in the past... the name for the region was "India" like the name for Iran and Iraq was Persia or Mesopotamia (Iraq only) or the name for Spain was Iberia or the name for Arabia was Arabia! The region in which you live in is and was known as India for atleast 500 years before you! So please ask your mother about history and then spread your stupidity around the world!

The ruthless conquests and forced conversions made it muslims majority and led to the destruction of all "pagan" temples, symbols and the like.

Besides, it had very little to do with the creation of Pakistan, which was a direct result of Jinnah's mistrust of the Congress and perhaps hunger for power, which came, well, a lot later.

You talk like the rulers made India some sort of Kashmir! If you are so oppressed then why do you treat the Kashmiris in the same way?

Ruthless conquests? Forced Conversions? I dunno how you see them as such oppressors but... Keep crying! And the bad rulers indescriminately slaughtered everyone not just Hindus! The muslim city of Kufa was subject of the murder 120,000 people (all muslims) by Abdul Malik the fifth Ummayad ruler! I am also saying that most people converted of their own free will as almost all the history text books say but you also want to deny that! Most of the conquests weren't ruthless! Each city being besieged was given in terms of surrender jizya tax, conversion or war as a choice! The best and most fair terms were set for surrender by the generals and the people were free to practice their religions freely after the enemy had surrendered or had been defeated! Pillaging, raping and looting has been practiced by every army in the world and is part of the phenomenon of war! But when these muslim conquerors conquered the lands the inhabitants with respect and tolerance You need to read history dude!

:hitwall: Did you read my post? I said Pakistan would not have been formed without Islam coming to India and many people accepting Islam as their religion! It has a lot to do with the creation of Pakistan! Do you think Pakistan could possibly be formed without Islam coming to India... theres no point arguing with you! You keep saying the same thing and then you expect me to repeat what I said! Its like you're playing a game where you're making people run in circles around you!

Pakistan's formation is very recent and is the result of the politics of the time. It was not a direct result of some thousand year old conquests.

Pakistan was created in order to ensure that muslims remained in power. Jinnah was too scared imho to live in a country where Hindus and muslims were on par, afraid that muslims would no longer be the ruling class,so in the absence of any other viable alternative, he decided to painfully divide the region and cause the deaths of millions of people.

Please do not try to insult Jinnah the man I respect most in this world! Jinnah wanted only a homeland that muslims could call their own and where they could live in without fearing for their lives! Maybe you think so about Jinnah because Gandhi and her suceeding generations were such fools to think that Pakistan and India could remain one and muslims in India could be treated equally! Maybe it was Gandhi and Nehrus lust for power that caused Pakistan to be formed!

Get this!!! Pakistan was formed for all those people who were oppressed by the Indian rule and did not want to suffer Indian oppression and live in fear for their lives! It was created for people who wanted justice and to live their lives free of the majorities bias and descrimination and constant favoring of Hindus!

Death of Millions? Well freedom was a good idea compared to suffering the hindu intolerence and discrimination and having to live like second or third class citizens ignored by the Hindu Majority! I am proud to have a nation to call my own! And congratulations! You've revealed how you really hated it when you lost Pakistan and have held a grudge against it ever since its formation!

Actually the death of millions would not have been caused if there weren't fanatics like you around! But then thats wishful thinking! Please carry on... your father will be proud of you...:enjoy:
 
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My ancestors could have come with the Persians or the Arabs or could have been local inhabitants of India! But no one knows all about his family links in the past... the name for the region was "India" like the name for Iran and Iraq was Persia or Mesopotamia (Iraq only) or the name for Spain was Iberia or the name for Arabia was Arabia! The region in which you live in is and was known as India for atleast 500 years before you! So please ask your mother about history and then spread your stupidity around the world!

500 years rite....ok tell me...when were the inhabitants of Pakistan converted to islam? I bet it was a lot earlier than 500 years ago.


You talk like the rulers made India some sort of Kashmir! If you are so oppressed then why do you treat the Kashmiris in the same way?

Ruthless conquests? Forced Conversions? I dunno how you see them as such oppressors but... Keep crying! And the bad rulers indescriminately slaughtered everyone not just Hindus! The muslim city of Kufa was subject of the murder 120,000 people (all muslims) by Abdul Malik the fifth Ummayad ruler! I am also saying that most people converted of their own free will as almost all the history text books say but you also want to deny that! Most of the conquests weren't ruthless! Each city being besieged was given in terms of surrender jizya tax, conversion or war as a choice! The best and most fair terms were set for surrender by the generals and the people were free to practice their religions freely after the enemy had surrendered or had been defeated! Pillaging, raping and looting has been practiced by every army in the world and is part of the phenomenon of war! But when these muslim conquerors conquered the lands the inhabitants with respect and tolerance You need to read history dude!

Dude don't even try to convince me that the muslim conquerers came to India and distributed sweets. They were as ruthless as any other invading army ought to be, but with a special place for idol worshippers in their hearts, if you know what I mean.



:hitwall: Did you read my post? I said Pakistan would not have been formed without Islam coming to India and many people accepting Islam as their religion! It has a lot to do with the creation of Pakistan! Do you think Pakistan could possibly be formed without Islam coming to India... theres no point arguing with you! You keep saying the same thing and then you expect me to repeat what I said! Its like you're playing a game where you're making people run in circles around you!

Well yeah, obviously if there were no muslims in India, there would be no Pakistan, no one is disputing that.

Please do not try to insult Jinnah the man I respect most in this world! Jinnah wanted only a homeland that muslims could call their own and where they could live in without fearing for their lives! Maybe you think so about Jinnah because Gandhi and her suceeding generations were such fools to think that Pakistan and India could remain one and muslims in India could be treated equally! Maybe it was Gandhi and Nehrus lust for power that caused Pakistan to be formed!

Not insulting buddy, but Jinnah is no god. He was a man like everyone else, just a lot more capable.
They were not fools at all...the Hindus of India were more than happy to coexist with muslims. It is the muslim leaders who showed their fanaticism by refusing to live on par with Hindus.

Get this!!! Pakistan was formed for all those people who were oppressed by the Indian rule and did not want to suffer Indian oppression and live in fear for their lives! It was created for people who wanted justice and to live their lives free of the majorities bias and descrimination and constant favoring of Hindus!

First of all, Indians did not rule India at the time, so the question of being oppressed by Indian rule doesn't arise.
Pakistan was formed on the basis of a hypothetical discrimination against muslims, also a fear that muslim culture and society would be forgotten in a hindu majority nation, not to mention Jinnah's misgivings.



Death of Millions? Well freedom was a good idea compared to suffering the hindu intolerence and discrimination and having to live like second or third class citizens ignored by the Hindu Majority! I am proud to have a nation to call my own! And congratulations! You've revealed how you really hated it when you lost Pakistan and have held a grudge against it ever since its formation!

Huh? Noone is holding a grudge. I am just explaining the reasons for the formation of Pakistan.
Also, you seem to be ignoring the millions of Hindus killed by muslims hands.


Actually the death of millions would not have been caused if there weren't fanatics like you around! But then thats wishful thinking! Please carry on... your father will be proud of you...:enjoy:

Thank you.
 
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You seem to be on some Anti-Islamic Rampage! I must admit that I did not comprehend your idiocy! We wonder why the muslim population in India talks about intolerence! I think I should send this post to my cousins and ask them what they think about it and if all of you are like that...

Sure..why not..



You forgot that many towns and cities surrendered themselves on the basis of either paying Jizya or even decided to convert to Islam! We aren't proud of the pillaging and looting as we are not proud of the pillagers and looters before them (who were Hindus ;)) but we are proud that they brought Islam to us and our ancestors were wise enough to see the truth! ;) Woah, the Islamic empire did not need a submissive muslim population but the willpower of the leaders and warriors was enough for you guys to handle... you're talking like all Hindus were discontent with their rule! Most Hindus and Muslims managed to live peacefully at that time under these leaders firm grip!

Hmmm....I wonder why they decided to convert to Islam....anyways...

Of course they were discontent....what do you expect when muslim emperors like aurengzeb give themselves titles like "idol breakers" and the likes. But this doesn't apply to all of them of course....emperors like akbar and hyder ali were well known for their progressive ideas and encouragement of the arts.

You are free to be proud of your religion if you want...but I'm glad we agree....you shouldn't be proud of the fact that the region was raided and looted by invaders with such ease.

So you are suggesting muslims did not have balls and were forced to accept Islam against their wishes and they accepted because of fear?... I can only laugh at your idiocy! Islam is still the fastest growing religion in terms of conversions so please think before you make idiotic comments! Most people accepted Islam of their own free will! True there were some conversions but most people did convert of their own free will!!!

The fastest growing claim can be disproven quite easily...but I'll just ignore that for now...

Nope....most conversions were either forced, or people converted to escape taxation, discrimination and the likes....but that is to be expected...any conquering army will want to convert people to their religion in order to rule them more easily.

So Hindus had balls? If you say so they did then... i'll try to accept it no matter what my views on the selected topic are... :D

Perhaps they did...after all they did stick to their beliefs in the face of tremendous pressures to change...

When spain was conquered there were barely any muslims in Spain! When Spain fell nearly the whole population of Spain was Muslim! How do you suppose so many people converted to Islam? Through forced conversion I suppose?... People cannot be forced to change things such as allegiance and religion! I would rather die than do it so please stop making yourself appear an Idiot!

People can be convinced quite easily my friend....and fear is a great convincer, not to mention the need for acceptance....trust me!!


Ya. ya please keep judging on your own merit! You are Khalifa!

Thank you!!

Did I say that? I said for us they are people without whom Pakistan could not have been formed and we could not have gained our identity as muslims and Pakistanis of which we are very proud today! We converted of our own free will! And many of us were the ones who brought Islam after converting ourselves! Many muslims came from Persia and Arabia came and settled in India! Did you simply decide to leave them out of the equation because they did not suit your ideas? Many of us have ancestors in Arabia and Persia... Alvi and Rafsanji families (last name) for example are families whose ancestors migrated from Persia!

Well I'm talking about the indegenous Pakistanis, not the ones who's ancestors came from foreign lands of course....

Muslims could not stand Indian oppression and bad treatment and thats why they shifted to Pakistan as they remembered the days of the Mughals when they were protected from Hindu extremists ready to exterminate them not because of their lust for power! We wanted freedom to practice our faith freely and be free from Hindu bias and discrimination! We wanted a homeland for ourselves and to call our own so that we would'nt be treated as second-class citizens and deprived of our basic rights by the pro-hindu police and the power-hungry government! I am proud today that I am free from these senseless policies and rage directed towards my religion. I know how it feels to suffer just because you are a muslim and I am glad that I made the right decision and chose Pakistan as my Nation where I am accepted and not discriminated against! Pakistan truelly is the best thing that happened to me! I would rather die than give up the freedom I have today!

But how could muslims be oppressed if they were never under hindu rule?? I really don't get your point buddy.

Alrite...quite a passionate speech there....

You have proven it indeed! I understand what my family in India goes through every single day! You are an intolerant people who do not care about muslims and see them with contempt!!! Your implying of "muslims not having balls" gives me a view of your intolerant nature! My family in India is suffering because they pledged allegiance to a Nation that does not care about them and keeps wanting them to get lost!

Oh please....either explain exactly what discrimination your family is facing or stop squealing.

P.S...I didn't say the muslims didn't have balls...I said that Pakistanis didn't have balls:D
But ignore it....it doesn't add anything to the argument anyways....just an opinion thats all
 
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Salaams,

LOL! Someone here needs a History Lesson!

Islam was brought to India, by actually a number of groups: which includes: Turks, Arabs, Persians, Afgans (could be considered as Persians), and probably to a lesser extent Transxoianians (Uzbeks).

By the way "India" was not exactly called "India" back then. Its the british term...For example like the Ottoman Empire, it should have really been called the Osman Empire (Something like that).

Anyways The Muslims came in 711 in Sindh, When there was the Pala Empire existing in Bengal And some where south there was also the Chola Dynasty. So obviously at that time "India" was not called "India", rather a patchwork of kingdoms... If anything India shouldn't be called India, becuase everyone all knows the term "India" is derived from the term "Indus". Seriously just because the first civilzation occured (Known as Indus Civilization) around the Indus River, Does not mean all of India history dates back from the Indus River Civilization.. Like what about the Ganges River...? Anyways that isn't point. A majority of Pakistanis are decendents from Turkey, and Arabia... (If you ever have seen Qadi-Azam's portrait, the hat he is wearing seems to be a variation of the Ottoman/Morrocan Fez) Or ever heard of Sherwani .Yes there are obviously "people from the subcontinent" residing in Pakistan such as Bengalis(Emigration), Muhajirs (Emigration) , Gujuratis, etc...Indegenous Pakistanis are a Mixture! Balochis, Pitans, Punjabis, Kashmiris, Sindhis, Uzbeks, Tajiks (to a lesser extent).

Lol, Who would want to be in the Oppressive Hindu Caste system, where the people of the bottom class, would forever be dirt. I think I remember the saying: "brahmins were the Heads, Warriors were the arms, Merchants/workers were the body and the workers/Slaves were the Feet." Like seriously when your Brahmins could lead nice lives, the workers lived in the Gutter. Obviously many Hindus from all over the caste system did convert...
What about the Untouchables? If someone was dying of thirst he couldn't drink a well that was owned by a non-hindu.

The Person who defeated the Delhi Sultanate and started the Mughal Empire, Himself was a Banished Transxionian (Uzbek).

Akbar, a leader? Ha? he tried to create his own religious sect....Just because hes lived in the most properous time doesn't make him an in inspirational leader.

Aurangzeb, had the right ideals, but took the wrong actions obviously. Still whether he created genocides were quite debatable, because the rajpoots had been trying to destablize the Mughal Empire since Shah Jahan came in.
 
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Ya Mustapha I get your point...the Hindus were oppressive, Aurangzeb couldn't have destroyed temples because he simply coudn't have (nice reasoning there).
Akbar was just lucky to live in prosperous times, yeah rite. And what is wrong in trying to reconcile hindus and muslims by starting a religion that combines the best of both? Nothing.

You need a history book that doesn't have green paint all over it.

You are right about the term "India". It was invented by the europeans. This is what I've been saying all along.

Islam came to south India first...i know that also.

About the ancestry of Pakistanis, am I wrong to say that most of the Pakistanis are indigenous people, or did most of them come from outside?

About the cast system....it is a LOT less oppressive than simply massacring whoever you think is a lower race or whatever.
 
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Salaams,

I never said he did or did not destroy hindu temples/shrines...

There is always a reason behind everything, and the Rajpoots could have been deemed as troublemakers. Likewise I will also agree that some Mughal Emperors were not that kind or gentle.

Maybe the Rajpoots could have damaged Muslim Property, thus leading to Aurangzeb to do drastic political moves. He calling himself the "Idol-breakers", I have never heard of it.

About Pakistani People...to be honest its a mixture.. obviously those Arab/Turkish/Central Asian features have worn off...

Sorry for the wrong interpretation but Islam was introduced in the and Northwest and Western coast of India.
The first signs of Islam in India was in the present-day region of Sindh.

Yes, I apologize for the harsh words I have used in my previous post...

India has been disunited for many, many centuries... since the Mauryan and Gupta Empire, India was a patchwork of states... basically since 1 A.D. to the 1100's. (According to the Gregorian/Christian/European Calendar)
 
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The other more important fact is that USA is self-centered... Maybe one should warn US for that (big smile).
 
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Islam first came to the Malabar coast of India (Kerela and stuff) through traders. Of course by India, I mean Republic of India.
 
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Salaams,

Yes, that could be the right idea. I think I might have heard about that somewhere along the line.

The Religion was introduced by traders in the South. From the best of my knowlegde the First major Muslim settlement was in the North, in Sindh, and probably in present FATA & NWFP through the Khyber Pass.


About the Topic, well we are afterall neighboring rivals...
 
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Islam first came to the Malabar coast of India (Kerela and stuff) through traders. Of course by India, I mean Republic of India.


aha thats why Keraliets are not much biased and are more tolrent thats why i like them. :tup:
 
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