US threatens to scrap India N-deal

[Contrarian]

I know that the Chinese can give their indegenous nuclear tech to Pakistan, just as Russia has been giving us all along.

But this is a far cry from what THIS nuclear deal is about or what it does for India. And Neo's post implied just that, that Pakistan would get a similar deal from China, which is laughable.

And personally i feel that the left(CPI-M) serves China more than India.

 

[joey]

Why dont someone post the article regarding what commies real interest lies with when karat openly said that...

I know that the Chinese can give their indegenous nuclear tech to Pakistan, just as Russia has been giving us all along.

Those Russian 1000 MW VVER's are not for fissile material production, unless you mean some secret deal between China and Pakistan, replace the 1000 MW VVER to 300 MW LWR's, china is itself liscence making 1000 MW LWR's from Westinghouse.

 

[Neo]

I know that the Chinese can give their indegenous nuclear tech to Pakistan, just as Russia has been giving us all along.

But this is a far cry from what THIS nuclear deal is about or what it does for India. And Neo's post implied just that, that Pakistan would get a similar deal from China, which is laughable.

And personally i feel that the left(CPI-M) serves China more than India.

Com'on Malay, you know better than this! India and USA took three years to finalise the 123 agreement, Pakistan and China have just started, the deal or the advantages gained from the cooperation may be less than 123 agreemtn never the less they will boost our capabilities.

Here's an article just published by TOI.

Pak in talks with China for N-deal ​

20 Aug 2007, 0309 hrs IST,Saibal Dasgupta,TNN

BEIJING: China is believed to have begun initial discussions with Pakistan for entering in to a nuclear deal that would give Islamabad the kind of advantages that India is expected to derive out of the Indo-US deal. This effectively means access to nuclear materials without the need for Pakistan to sign the non-proliferation treaty.

The move comes after renewed attempts by Islamabad to persuade China to give it access to higher levels of nuclear technology and material in order to counter the advantages that might accrue to India out of the 123 deal.

Beijing's immediate purpose seems to exert pressure on the United States to rescind its nuclear deal with India at a time when the deal is causing a political storm in New Delhi. But if China does go in for a nuclear agreement with Pakistan, it would cause a stir among nuclear powers as Pakistan has earlier been found to have proliferated nuclear technology by selling it to North Korea and possibly Iran, sources said.

The nuclear issue is expected to influence the planning for the planned visit of the Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to Beijing by the end of the year.

China recently indicated that it would enhance its support to Pakistani efforts to build nuclear power stations. It has already helped Pakistan build one nuclear power station. Islamabad has sought refuge in Beijing's support on the nuclear issue after the United States signed the 123 deal with India, sources explained.

Beijing is also emerging as a strong diplomatic allay of Iran on the nuclear issue, which is also exerting pressure on the United States.

Observers feel that Beijing will have to think twice about actually giving special advantages to Pakistan because it will upset the whole non-proliferation process and cause major upheavals in international diplomacy. It would resort to such a move only if Chinese leaders see the Indo-US deal as a source of major threat to itself, sources said.

Pak in talks with China for N-deal -India-The Times of India

 

[Neo]

India's credibility will take big hit if deal is nuked​

20 Aug 2007, 0001 hrs IST,TNN

NEW DELHI: What will the world look like for India if the India-US nuclear deal is flushed down the Left black hole? Not pretty, let’s assure you.

First things first. It will be a blow to the credibility of not just the UPA government but all successive governments. Tomorrow, when you are negotiating a trading agreement with, say, Asean or a multilateral trade deal at the WTO, it is conceivable that India's interlocutors will have little or no faith in the Indian positions, knowing that the government cannot defend a done deal back home.

Diplomatically, it will take India over a decade to recover. We can kiss UN Security Council ambitions goodbye, forget any breakthrough in the WTO, or be a credible partner in a global enterprise, from providing solutions in Africa to being a factor for security in Asia or fighting terrorism.

Strategically, it would put back India's hopes of becoming a big power. Why, you might ask, after all, there was life before the deal. True. But then, India was not pitching this high. Now India is counted as BRIC-plus, that is, a factor of global security and stability. Dishonouring a deal this size, seriously puts India's ambitions at stake.

Why is this deal important? Because, for the first time, someone has decided to let India have its cake and eat it too. You stay out of the NPT, keep your weapons, refuse fullscope safeguards, and yet get to conduct nuclear commerce in a system that is dead against such a formulation. That's the bottomline of this deal.

Of course, relations with the US will plunge. That's what the Left, too, wants. The question is, will that make India more attractive to China, Russia, France, Japan or even Pakistan? China only takes India seriously since the deal was born. It's no secret Beijing wants this deal killed.

Will there be another white knight around the horizon? Unlikely on the terms that India has got on the 123. Japan, where India is building its second biggest partnership, will freeze in its tracks. After all, what's the point of building a $90 billion industrial corridor in India when India can no longer be a credible factor of Asian stability.

This much is clear - the US is streets ahead of its nearest competitor in technology, education and research.
For the past decade, Indian business and middle-class society has decided that this is the way for India to go.

Indian students, too, see the US as their No. 1 destination. These may not be vote banks, but are sections that provide ballast to the larger society. And these sections will be deeply disillusioned.

The nuclear deal is much more than about nuclear energy. It’s about breaking through a technology denial regime that has spread across many sectors of India's knowledge economy - from IT to defence, space, pharmaceuticals, clean energy, biotech, you name it.

Because, as every Indian industrialist will tell you, after a certain point, all technology can be described as dual-use, and they are out of reach at present. The single window clearance for India opens up that door and Indian business is raring to go.

The clearest implication for the deal is in India's energy sector, which has lagged behind all other infrastructure areas, and is about the dirtiest. At present, the total size of India's electric power system is 124 GW. By 2020, if India can add 20GW of new nuclear capacity it would save 145 million tonnes of CO2 per year. Put simply, it means more energy, clean energy.

Recently, technology minister Kapil Sibal encapsulated the deal thus: "The deal is important not just for India and the United States. If we want to be key players in the world this relationship is exceptionally important. You shouldn't look at this relationship from the point of view of civil nuclear energy exclusively - that is only part of it. And, that's what people have to understand."

"We are dealing with global issues. We are dealing with a partnership that will allow huge opportunities - both economic and otherwise - to open up for entrepreneurs at both ends in agriculture, clean technologies, environment and water-technologies. There are huge possibilities. When our two nations move forward, we can't get bogged down by debates which are partisan. Because the issue at stake is not nuclear weapons."

For half a century, India and the US were on different sides of an ideological divide. That bred dislike and mistrust, which in many ways has been countered over the last few years. If we go the way we're headed, it will take little to turn this into contempt.

India's credibility will take big hit if deal is nuked-India-The Times of India

 

[EagleEyes]

In the mean time Pakistan is trying to get as much help as it can get via China. It is also making sure that indegious capability is improved to make Pakistan a self sufficient country in the areas of making nuclear reactors. Later on, Uncle Sam will ask for a nuclear deal with Pakistan, and it would be up to Pakistan to get the benefits out of it.

For now, i do think if the deal is done between India and United States. India will be fall into the pressure and become reliant on the United States of America!

 

[bhangra12345]

Com'on Malay, you know better than this! India and USA took three years to finalise the 123 agreement, Pakistan and China have just started, the deal or the advantages gained from the cooperation may be less than 123 agreemtn never the less they will boost our capabilities.

Here's an article just published by TOI.

Here again the big fish in the nuclear industry are US, Russia and France. China is at the receivers end of the market. Mainly making the US agree to the deal is the major point.

India's nuclear PR for the deal in US centred around its non-proliferation record. Pakistan similarly has to find something. Non-proliferation record is not a big asset for Pakistan. In the next 5 years I am not able to see that something coming out. What will be Pakistan's PR based on?

 

[EagleEyes]

You must realize that Pakistan PR record may be just more better than that of Indias. Pakistan has fought the elements of nuclear profileration, and has disabled the whole program all by it self. For that reward, i believe it makes much more sense for the United States to support Pakistan's nuclear program and send all the major equipment to make the nuclear facilities beyond the line of security.

For now, Chinese meet our requirements and when there is a need. Money buys everything. Yet, we still have to watch what India decides.

 

[bhangra12345]

You must realize that Pakistan PR record may be just more better than that of Indias. Pakistan has fought the elements of nuclear profileration, and has disabled the whole program all by it self. For that reward, i believe it makes much more sense for the United States to support Pakistan's nuclear program and send all the major equipment to make the nuclear facilities beyond the line of security.

For now, Chinese meet our requirements and when there is a need. Money buys everything. Yet, we still have to watch what India decides. Freedom or Black Mail.

You are saying that Pakistan fought nuclear proliferation, but unfortunately it is accused of actually getting the genie out of the bottle. So the immediate counter argument would be "you have bolted the doors after the horses left the stable" and so that would be difficult to counteract especially with Mr. AQ's history behind. That line of PR right now would be treated as laughing stock.(No negative vibes intended)

Unfortunately dependence on China in future is illegal (according to NSG rules), that is not to say it cannot be done illegally. The thing is, this will make Pakistan coming into legal arena even more difficult. Note even India is right now not on legal grounds. It becomes legal only after the NSG agrees the 123.

I also agree that right now is the easiest time for Pakistan to slide through the NSG doors as they are being opened for India. India right now is playing its cards well to see that only it slides through the door. It all depends on how much will Pakistan make China to exert its force?

 

[EagleEyes]

That would be a very debatable argument, but with that argument if both United States and Pakistan do want to get the deal done, it will happen regardless of the steps taken by the counter organizations. AQ is banned for a reason, and has been jailed for a reason gives the well steps taken by the Pakistan in regards to the nuclear proliferation. Pakistan being the young nuclear state at that time could justify its ground to get through the proliferation clause and the AQ party did it on its own, doesn't no way recognizes the official stance of Pakistan in regards to the nuclear profileration.

Unfortunately dependence on China in future is illegal (according to NSG rules), that is not to say it cannot be done illegally.

I do would like to hear more of that. Why is that?

 

[bhangra12345]

That would be a very debatable argument, but with that argument if both United States and Pakistan do want to get the deal done, it will happen regardless of the steps taken by the counter organizations. AQ is banned for a reason, and has been jailed for a reason gives the well steps taken by the Pakistan in regards to the nuclear proliferation. Pakistan being the young nuclear state at that time could justify its ground to get through the proliferation clause and the AQ party did it on its own, doesn't no way recognizes the official stance of Pakistan in regards to the nuclear profileration.

Here again please note I make a clear distinction between official stance and PR view. Nobody on the road is going to believe that AQ has done it single handedly. For persons on the road, anything concerning nuclear is highly secretive and protected at the highest level. So they are surely going to ask
i) if they do not believe your version - so you are saying that a single scientist could over come all of your government controls and breach the highest level of security, without anybody in the actual decision making loop agreeing to the breach?
ii) (even if they believe your version), so you could not prevent the theft in the past and ask me to believe you in the future?

I do would like to hear more of that. Why is that?

I am sorry, but I couldnt get you.
if you are asking
i) Why will dependence of China be illegal in future?
Well the NSG or IAEA, one of them passed a rule saying that non-NPT(India, Pakistan, Israel) countries will have no help from NSG from 1992 or the date of joining NSG. Uptil now India and Pakistan are getting help under what are the called the grandfather clauses. These clauses basically mean if the members of the NSG have signed agreements before that date, they are allowed to continue the help till the agreements are complete, but no new agreement/ projects are to be made.

Right now, the duration of the grandmother clauses is coming to an end. So the NSG countries cannot transfer any nuclear technology to non-NPT countries in the future. Therefore my statement.

ii) If you are asking about the second part of my statement about doing illegally, that statement is another way of saying "where there is a will there is a way". Unfortunately the way may not be legal.

 

[EagleEyes]

Here again please note I make a clear distinction between official stance and PR view. Nobody on the road is going to believe that AQ has done it single handedly. For persons on the road, anything concerning nuclear is highly secretive and protected at the highest level. So they are surely going to ask
i) if they do not believe your version - so you are saying that a single scientist could over come all of your government controls and breach the highest level of security, without anybody in the actual decision making loop agreeing to the breach?
ii) (even if they believe your version), so you could not prevent the theft in the past and ask me to believe you in the future?

1) A Q Khan didn't have to breach government controls and highest level of security. It doesn't even relate to the nuclear proliferation. The document of nuclear technology were proliferated all by himself to the different countries, no way includes the government of Pakistan in whole scene.

2) Thats a personal thing to believe what you want. Pakistan is a nuclear capable nation, and will only advance its capability in the future by any means (illegally or legally) it will be given the right or at least it will earn it to be a major nuclear power. Now if the India does get through, the chances are likely that Pakistan will get through too.

 

[bhangra12345]

1) A Q Khan didn't have to breach government controls and highest level of security. It doesn't even relate to the nuclear proliferation. The document of nuclear technology were proliferated all by himself to the different countries, no way includes the government of Pakistan in whole scene.

2) Thats a personal thing to believe what you want. Pakistan is a nuclear capable nation, and will only advance its capability in the future by any means (illegally or legally) it will be given the right or at least it will earn it to be a major nuclear power. Now if the India does get through, the chances are likely that Pakistan will get through too.

WebMaster,

You are trying to make it personal.

Look, I know that that image is different from reality. Pakistan's image (whatever might be the reality), is at present giving a bad picture. and unfortunately in international public opinion it is only image that matters and I am only talking about the image, without any talk of reality.

Right now any PR exercise from Pakistan cannot depend on its nuclear proliferation record unless something dramatic thing happens, like say Pakistan gets Osama or something of such sort.

2) also Pakistan's advancement without international help in nuclear field is guarenteed, but the only thing will it be able to match India's advancement pace, when India has international help? As I have said before, right now is the oppurtunity for Pakistan to get through the NSG with the least cost. I have not denied that. But the present image of Pakistan is going to hurt it in this endeavour.

 

[Awesome]

If only Pakistan hadn't gone around Robinhood style distributing looted goodies to every corner kid, maybe Pakistan wouldn't have had to cry about any hypocricy.

Quit trolling...

India's own proliferation record is as worse as Pakistan's. The only difference is they are not at war with your religion.

 

[Awesome]

Pakistan's deal with China won't have any loopholes of termination if Pak conducts a nuclear test or re-use of spent fuel .

 

[EagleEyes]

2) also Pakistan's advancement without international help in nuclear field is guarenteed, but the only thing will it be able to match India's advancement pace, when India has international help? As I have said before, right now is the oppurtunity for Pakistan to get through the NSG with the least cost. I have not denied that. But the present image of Pakistan is going to hurt it in this endeavour.

First we have to see if the Indian deal does go through. Which i believe if it does go through would give India significant placement in advancing this field. Now the matter of question is (for the techy guy familiar with nuclear reactors). What the heck can United States give to India that cannot be matched by either China or Pakistan? Is it going to be the alien lightening bulb which will light India to meet the requirements of its energy. At least for now stop the dick measuring contests..( not meant for you, bhangra)