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US should dump Islamabad-HussainHaqqani

there was already a clamour even from ulema e Hind as well as Jamaat e islami, while neither of these supported the creation of Pakistan, once Pakistan was a done done they soon agitated for their vision, however, at the same time, recall a now forgotten bit of history, the Cold War was a reality, in particular within countries aligned with the US, simultaneously, leftist ideas had gained ground in universities, the politics of identity that we are today familiar with, regional, ethnic,linguistic, were all developed during this time - and it was to counter these, that the idea of Islam as a national identity gained currency -- Yes, it's true that it all came together with Zia, but these ideas had been brewing since before there was a Pakistan.

I generally agree with all that

Once again, I read you using "natural identity" Who dat is? If Identity is a Creation, what's this natural Identity? Recall that what we today call Hindu as an Identity did not exist 200 years ago and was instead the caste Identity as primary - so what we have today is not an "accident", not "natural' but a creation.

A "natural" identity is an identity that does not need to be supported by force or by state sponsorship. For example, "Pushtun", "Punjabi" and "Tamil" are natural identities.

Before 1947, "Indian" was a natural civilizational identity that included South Asian regional identities, and that more or less continued after 1947, as far as India is concerned.
 
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I generally agree with all that
A "natural" identity is an identity that does not need to be supported by force or by state sponsorship. For example, "Pushtun", "Punjabi" and "Tamil" are natural identities.

Before 1947, "Indian" was a natural civilizational identity that included South Asian regional identities, and that more or less continued after 1947, as far as India is concerned.

I don't know about that after all was there really an "India" before 47 -- sure we used the term, but wasn't it the English who introduced it and we "naturally" adopted in English language schools run by the English in their language which we "naturally" adopted?? No force there

A Punjabi is a Punjabi bcause he or she lives there or speaks the language or both or because he or she chooses to affiliate with the group?
 
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I don't know about that after all was there really an "India" before 47 -- sure we used the term, but wasn't it the English who introduced it and we "naturally" adopted in English language schools run by the English in their language which we "naturally" adopted?? No force there

A Punjabi is a Punjabi bcause he or she lives there or speaks the language or both or because he or she chooses to affiliate with the group?

That is a big topic with a whole sticky thread dedicated to it -

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...tions-behind-selecting-name-india-1947-a.html

Regards.
 
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Ideally ? sure
About Israel - it was founded not because of persecution by Muslims but rather by Christians and your comment about religious and ethnic identity being in conflict is interesting -- for instance, and I may be wrong, in India communal strife is what you may be pointing to - but universal religions come with that baggage - they are UNIVERSAL

Jews were indeed persecuted by Christians which again points to religious intolerence, their presence among Muslims is again a conflict not because they were percecuted but becuase they are Jews.

Islam is based on puranitical principles with very little to no tolerence towards other religions, the reason why Islam is in conflict with all religions, India is no different. Indian Muslims carry an historical baggage with them and fissures between extreme rightists among both religious groups are at loggerheads - but the conflict is in built and within the state - no group gives up on their Indian identity, so the state has succeeded in keeping them united at the national level becuase of secular principles.
 
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Washington should leave Pakistan to its own devices so that it can discover for itself how weak it is without American aid and support, eventually enabling it to return to the mainstream suitably chastened about its limitations
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just look at this man---look in which context he talking to.He is saying this in an insulting way--not in a patriotic way,not in this sense that if usa will leave us alone then we will have chance to test our abilities and to rediscover ourself--furthermore we will get rid of all this bloodshed due to backing off from so-called war on terror of usa and afghan--this man is worse then a dog--even if you throw a bone to your dog then he will become loyal to you--and this man who is labelled as Pakistani is an insult and disgrace for us:angry:
 
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The idea that religion and that too a foreign one can be the basis of foming a country is the big flaw.

well it may be to you hindustanis who (clearly) still have lumps in your throat over 1947......funny thing is that one would think most of the indian fanboys on this forum passionately rally behind the BJP which has a very hindu-dominated agenda.

Islam is a binding force for Pakistan and the ethos of the people. The same way Judaism is a binding force for Israel and the ethos of those people - though in Pakistan's case (or Israel's for example) you have a politically/ideologically diverse country.

the "Foreign religion" you're talking about was existing in the sub-continent long before india even became a country.....using your logic Christianity is a foreign language to North/Central/South America
 
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Jews were indeed persecuted by Christians which again points to religious intolerence, their presence among Muslims is again a conflict not because they were percecuted but becuase they are Jews.

Islam is based on puranitical principles with very little to no tolerence towards other religions, the reason why Islam is in conflict with all religions, India is no different. Indian Muslims carry an historical baggage with them and fissures between extreme rightists among both religious groups are at loggerheads - but the conflict is in built and within the state - no group gives up on their Indian identity, so the state has succeeded in keeping them united at the national level becuase of secular principles.

No, I don't think so - Israel finds her self opposed because her creation was not negotiated with any of her neighbors and it was and is seen as an imposition - and Islam is not in conflict with all religions, rather other religions are in conflict with Islam and within and amongst each other - Sectarian strife exists with Christian denominations, Jewery continues to to be viewed with suspicion, a victim of ancient prejudices, whereas Tamil Hindus seem to have a thing for Sinhala Buddhists and whereas Sinhala buddhists have a thing for Muslims of subcontinental extractions -- so a little precision goes a long way.

Indian Muslims do carry a great deal of baggage of every kind, however the most hurtful to the Indian Muslim is the baggage of not being CONSCIOUS Muslims, like a majority, they are simply Muslim by accident of birth and given their unique circumstance as minority group, even asa sub-group among Indian castes, it is incumbent upon them to CREAT a consciousness which "vividly apprehends"their confession and meaning of faith and Identity in a pluralistic tradition and society
 
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I am not surprised in any way at all... I knew this was bound to happen. Hussain Haqqani has never thought of himself as a Pakistani but as an American citizen first. Therefore his comments in reality do not carry the sting of surprise. Haqqani is a troublesome gutter-mouthed figure which Islamabad rather does not need right now. Zardari should call him back and demand he stop maligning Pakistan's name outside the country.

Also even I criticize the ISI and army at times as objectivity and criticism help strengthen an institution but even I keep my mouth shut when foreigners are around. For Haqqani army-bashing is a hobby to be enjoyed while he sits in a jaccuzi sipping expensive wine with pretty American women.
 
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Jews were indeed persecuted by Christians which again points to religious intolerence, their presence among Muslims is again a conflict not because they were percecuted but becuase they are Jews.

Islam is based on puranitical principles with very little to no tolerence towards other religions, the reason why Islam is in conflict with all religions, India is no different. Indian Muslims carry an historical baggage with them and fissures between extreme rightists among both religious groups are at loggerheads - but the conflict is in built and within the state - no group gives up on their Indian identity, so the state has succeeded in keeping them united at the national level becuase of secular principles.

Dear Marathi Manoo, I beg to differ.

Indians have failed the South Indian Dravidian Tamil Hindus (Shaivism) by abandoning the Sri Lankan Tamils, which is why Karunanidhi left the UPA. BTW, this is not an Anna DMK/Jayalalitha or DMK/Karunanidhi issue, it is a Tamil issue.

I am sure you remember when she left Vajpayee and he had to run to her in the middle of the night with his tail between his legs? What was it about? It was the Tamil issue, which goes beyond the Iyers you think you have planted there, or the Christians or Muslims. Tamils are Tamil first, religion, second, Indian third.

Furthermore, the North Indian Hindus (Vaishnavism) are imposing their beliefs in the mythical Ramayana on them by not letting them do any developments in the Sethusamudram and connecting with their people in the South.

They don't even believe Rama exists or in that mythology because that would mean they are the Hanuman (or the monkeys) in the plot. Now, although, according to the story, they did help save Sita, they are still Venera according to it, which makes it all the more disturbing - thus, they don't celebrate Divali and want an actual man-made bridge there - not what god(s) made in the form of Adam's bridge.

BTW, this is the same Rama, whose birth and existence is questioned by Karunanidhi and was debated by Owaisi when he asked where he was truly born whilst speaking on the Babri Masjid issue.

It is ironic that if you find out the details of the issue, you would realize that the Babri Masjid was demolished because, in the mid 1900s, a boy had a dream about Ram being born there and then, Advani rode the wave of Saffron terror into UP, and eventually got Vajpayee into power because of it.

No such examples can be found anywhere in Pakistan or in its history.

Tipu Sultan defended the Kannada Hindus and fought with the British after they demolished their temple so he could protect their rights. Yet, when people of Mysore ask for a university there, the BJP Hindutva extremists play the "secular" card.

Under what code of moral ethics do religious extremists have the right to invoke the secular card when their entire political ideologies revolve around Saffron terror?

Also, they equated the university to the "communal" Aligarh University, which is by far the most moderate and Westernized institution, in all of the Subcontinent.

I mean, even Jamia Millia in Delhi was able to produce chauvinists like Burkha Dutt (a typical jingoistic graduate just like from any Indian university). So what was the issue in allowing Mysore, with a 40% Muslim population to have a university in the name of an undisputed leader who fought wars to protect the temples of Hindus?

Conversely, Indians demolish Sikh temple(s).

The suppression of the culture of people like the Marathis by purposeful influx of UP/Bihar people and other disturbing acts like dividing states along linguistic lines, is terrible aahe, yet, Pakistan is the problem?

We say in Urdu, bud say budnaam bura.

This is the situation with Pakistan and India.

Pakistanis complain about blackouts and feel they are in terrible conditions but when they see that half of Indians never had power and the other half barely ever get it, they feel satisfied and content in their conditions.

This is becoming very common and the perceptions are slowly being corrected. People do not buy the Indian propaganda about India being a great place to live and Pakistan, the worst. It's only an image issue with us and that is always superficial.

India, on the other hand, is under the worst possible conditions and that isn't just on the surface.
 
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Dear Marathi Manoo, I beg to differ.

Indians have failed the South Indian Dravidian Tamil Hindus (Shaivism) by abandoning the Sri Lankan Tamils, which is why Karunanidhi left the UPA. BTW, this is not an Anna DMK/Jayalalitha or DMK/Karunanidhi issue, it is a Tamil issue.

I am sure you remember when she left Vajpayee and he had to run to her in the middle of the night with his tail between his legs? What was it about? It was the Tamil issue, which goes beyond the Iyers you think you have planted there, or the Christians or Muslims. Tamils are Tamil first, religion, second, Indian third.

Furthermore, the North Indian Hindus (Vaishnavism) are imposing their beliefs in the mythical Ramayana on them by not letting them do any developments in the Sethusamudram and connecting with their people in the South.

They don't even believe Rama exists or in that mythology because that would mean they are the Hanuman (or the monkeys) in the plot. Now, although, according to the story, they did help save Sita, they are still Venera according to it, which makes it all the more disturbing - thus, they don't celebrate Divali and want an actual man-made bridge there - not what god(s) made in the form of Adam's bridge.

BTW, this is the same Rama, whose birth and existence is questioned by Karunanidhi and was debated by Owaisi when he asked where he was truly born whilst speaking on the Babri Masjid issue.

It is ironic that if you find out the details of the issue, you would realize that the Babri Masjid was demolished because a boy, in the mid 1900s, had a dream about Ram being born there and then, Advani rode the wave of Saffron terror into UP, and eventually, get Vajpayee into power because of it.

No such examples can be found anywhere in Pakistan or in its history.

Tipu Sultan defended the Kannada Hindus and fought with the British after they demolished their temple so he could protect their rights. Yet, when people of Mysore ask for a university there, the BJP Hindutva extremists play the "secular" card.

Under what code of moral ethics do religious extremists have the right to invoke the secular card when their entire political ideologies revolve around Saffron terror?

Also, they equated the university as the "communal" Aligarh University, which is by far the most moderate and Westernized institution, in all of Subcontinent.

I mean, even Jamia Millia in Delhi was able to produce chauvinists like Burkha Dutt (a typical jingoistic graduate just like from any Indian university). So what was the issue in allowing Mysore, with a 40% Muslim population to have a university in the name of an undisputed leader who fought wars to protect the temples of Hindus?

Conversely, Indians demolish Sikh temple(s).

The suppression of the culture of people the Marathis by purposeful influx of UP/Bihar people and other disturbing acts like dividing states along linguistic lines is terrible ahe, yet, Pakistan is the problem?
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The islami crap , In such case you made a country Name of Allah which doesn't have any existence .

Hundreds of Temple got demolished in pak since 1947 , About babari there was Temple it dosen't matter of whom rama , Krishna , that place was belong to Hindus , until barbarian Muslims destroyed it.


yes , we have problem North-South, Marathi-Non Marathi , etc.....But no one killing people for it todays date , it's general human problems .....and you people killing every day non-Muslims , even your people don't hesitate to suck blood of Muslims. Pakistan is like Vampire country .
 
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The islami crap , In such case you made a country Name of Allah which doesn't have any existence .

Hundreds of Temple got demolished in pak since 1947 , About babari there was Temple it dosen't matter of whom rama , Krishna , that place was belong to Hindus , until barbarian Muslims destroyed it.


yes , we have problem North-South, Marathi-Non Marathi , etc.....But no one killing people for it todays date , it's general human problems .....and you people killing every day non-Muslims , even your people don't hesitate to suck blood of Muslims. Pakistan is like Vampire country .

I had been previously banned for questionable language.

Is allowing open and blatant insults towards people's religions accepted?

Is intolerance like this allowed?

Does anyone have the right to indulge in abusive words towards people's places of worship, unashamedly, in this manner on this site?

If we were to respond, would that incite the mods to ban us?

This gentleman was unable to respond to a simple concern of Karunanidhi and instead started saying that he has the right to destroy any place of worship and no questions shall be asked whilst insulting our religion?

Do we truly want the Indian culture of intolerance (being sold with the label of "secularism") in Pakistan?

Is this the kind of Hindutva extremism that this site wants to promote?

Do we want to become another intolerant nation like India where a puritanical Hindutva state is the "final solution"?

The MODS need not overlook this attitude.

In Pakistan, such intolerant people are called extremists, bigots, and potential hate criminals.

In India, they are called Indians

They believe 200 million Muslims are Mongols, 20 million Christians are British and 90 million Tamils are monkeys/Venera/Hanuman

Would you allow anyone on the site who believed Tamils to be monkeys?

This is something that everyone needs to reflect on, including Indians.

What kind of society do they truly want to create?

Do they want these MUFC (Modi United Fan Club) trolls to dictate their national interests or are they going to be more assertive to silence these nut-jobs?

The choice is yours.
 
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I had been previously banned for questionable language.

Is allowing open and blatant insults towards people's religions accepted?

Is intolerance like this allowed?

Does anyone have the right to indulge in abusive words towards people's places of worship, unashamedly, in this manner on this site?

If we were to respond, would that incite the mods to ban us?

This gentleman was unable to respond to a simple concern of Karunanidhi and instead started saying that he has the right to destroy any place of worship and no questions shall be asked whilst insulting our religion?

Do we truly want the Indian culture of intolerance (being sold with the label of "secularism") in Pakistan?

Is this the kind of Hindutva extremism that this site wants to promote?

Do we want to become another intolerant nation like India where a puritanical Hindutva state is the "final solution"?

The MODS need not overlook this attitude.

In Pakistan, such intolerant people are called extremists, bigots, and potential hate criminals.

In India, they are called Indians

They believe 200 million Muslims are Mongols, 20 million Christians are British and 90 million Tamils are monkeys/Venera/Hanuman

Would you allow anyone on the site who believed Tamils to be monkeys?

This is something that everyone needs to reflect on, including Indians.

What kind of society do they truly want to create?

Do they want these MUFC (Modi United Fan Club) trolls to dictate their national interests or are they going to be more assertive to silence these nut-jobs?

The choice is yours.

Well , I don't see any insult , You Questioned Existence of Rama ! I questioned Existence of Allah and Country Established on His Name , Country in which On Name of "Allah " non-Muslims are second class citizens .
 
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Washington should leave Pakistan to its own devices so that it can discover for itself how weak it is without American aid and support, eventually enabling it to return to the mainstream suitably chastened about its limitations.

"By coming to terms with this reality, Washington would be freer to explore new ways of pressuring Pakistan and achieving its own goals in the region.

Though true - but how did this guy go on to become an Ambassador - don't you have proper screening procedures in Pakistan?
 
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i support the nation-
but that coming from a traitor- its shameful and disgusting- :sick:-
 
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Well , I don't see any insult , You Questioned Existence of Rama ! I questioned Existence of Allah and Country Established on His Name , Country in which On Name of "Allah " non-Muslims are second class citizens .

I did not question the existence of Rama but quoted Karunanidhi and stated that he doesn't know of his existence and does not believe in him and rightly so, because the Ramayana paints the South Indian Tamils as Monkeys, which is why it is a bigoted book and philosophy.

Just because they are dark, you would call them monkeys?

Also, why would you force him to believe in an event that he doesn't believe took place and there's no archeological proof to show that there was a bridge over the Sethusamudram made by monkeys (euphemistically Tamils, according to you)

You have no right to force your beliefs on the Tamils who want to build a bridge to connect with their fellow Tamils in Sri Lanka, over waters they don't believe have anything holy about them.

You're trying to force your religion on other people and then are questioning other people like Karunanidhi or Owaisi for the mere right to question them or not accept them being imposed on them?

Conversely, you questioning God's existence has absolutely no comparison when we quote Karunanidhi, a leader of the oppressed Tamils like Jayalalitha.

FYI, Hindutva extremist, Allah is a word for "God" in Arabic that is used by Arabic-speaking Christians, Druze, as well as some Jews and Sikhs.

Are you saying that you're an atheist?
 
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