US plans to bomb Miranshah and kill 200 civilians in revenge?

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AA: That is INCORRECT and SLANDER, and UNWORTHY of a person in your position. A Pakistani physician was caught taking blood samples as part of an immunization drive. That is it. Unless, of course, you wish to present some evidence to support your lie.

Why should he present evidence, to paraphrase your own argument, 'Allegations such as these are not directed at the American audience ..., nor is the American audience the one that needs to believe them' ...

 

[VCheng]

Why should he present evidence, to paraphrase your own argument, 'Allegations such as these are not directed at the American audience ..., nor is the American audience the one that needs to believe them' ...

Excellent post.

So you see, both sides do exactly what they accuse the other of doing. Once we accept this, can we please discuss matters without riding the moral high-horse or expressing feigned indignation?

I have said all along that international geopolitics are not subject to mundane moral assessments. I am glad that you see the light, or at least are now admitting it.

 

[happycanuck]

Good opportunity for Pakistan army and Air force to show that they are Pakistan's army and Air force and an excellent opportunity to turn such an action in to a national effort to recruit and train and additional eight to twelve divisions of specially trained troops to clean up Pakistani cities, ALL of FATA and Balouchistan, to organize a national political party dedicated to the resurrection of the Pakistani state, economy and society, call it whatever name you want, but a political party that is disciplined and focused on the resurrection of the state, the economy and society - clean up the corrupt politicians and bureaucrats and let the Islamicans know, "no more" or Else!

Where are all the Pakistanis who have the same mind set as you. Most of posters are thinking along the line of confrontation with USA, which is unproductive. I see only couple of poster like you and MASTAN KHAN SAHEB who are accepting the reality on the ground. Your point is well taken and I have also stated in different post of mine as well the need for complete clean up should be the number one priority.

There is an urgent need for development of society based on corruption free system. It is going to be massive undertaking because we are talking about changing the mindset of millions of people. I am sure there are individuals like you with in Pakistan who want the best for its people. Can you think of any leader who can reach out to people and motivate them to brighter future for nation of Pakistan.

I also agree that people who create internal violence based on religion need to be put away. Regarding religion it is individual choice and should be kept in one's heart and mind only. I hope peace prevails in your country and prosperity will follow.

 

[53fd]

Excellent post.

So you see, both sides do exactly what they accuse the other of doing. Once we accept this, can we please discuss matters without riding the moral high-horse or expressing feigned indignation?

I have said all along that international geopolitics are not subject to mundane moral assessments. I am glad that you see the light, or at least are now admitting it.

Exactly! Why do we need a justice system in a country at all? Why do we need a UN or any other international governing body? We should spend all our money on defense/military, because might is right according to you. No need to discuss anything, let's just behave like animals & barbarians, because everything else is futile.

 

[VCheng]

Exactly! Why do we need a justice system in a country at all? Why do we need a UN or any other international governing body? We should spend all our money on defense/military, because might is right according to you. No need to discuss anything, let's just behave like animals.

Obviously, you still have some maturing to do. Please take a dispassionate look all around you, and read history. Much to your distaste, you will find that I am correct in my assessments of these international issues.

 

[53fd]

Obviously, you still have some maturing to do. Please take a dispassionate look all around you, and read history. Much to your distaste, you will find that I am correct in my assessments of these international issues.

I'm mature enough, thank you for your concern. Instead of making personal attacks against me, can you respond as to why we need to have a justice system, the UN or any other international governing body/agencies in the world, if might is right?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Why would they need to attack deep inside Paksitan??

I think you misread my post.. I mentioned source being deep inside NW region of Pakistan.. Not somewhere else deep inside Pakistan..

My point is that the US and most Western analysts are pointing to North Waziristan and FATA as being the 'source' and 'safe havens' for the Haqqanis and their affiliates - if there is some other place 'deep in the North West of Pakistan', where is it, and why is that 'place' not being mentioned in terms of demanding action from Pakistan, rather than North Waziristan?

Not going to argue who did more of what against Taliban and Al Queda in Pakistan.. Just that CIA and Drones have been successful in eliminating HVTs despite all the alleged shielding done by ISI.. And the same can be used more effectively (though not efficiently) once US starts caring less and less for Pakistani sensitivities..

So why have the CIA drones not been effective in eliminating Haqqani HVT's and significantly damaging the Haqqani network, given that the CIA drones have free reign in North Waziristan and the US claims that is where the Haqqani network is finding safe haven?

I'll leave that to Pakistani and US strategists to decide on who helped/damaged AQ how much.. My point of contention was simply that USA can use stand off weapons to target Haqquani network as it has been , albeit with higher intensity if it decides to..

Again, the US has been conducting a very intense 'drone war' in North Waziristan already, and the Haqqanis and AQ have both been declared targets of this 'drone war', why has the Haqqani Network not been taken out, and why has the US failed to carry out 'interdiction operations' against the Haqqani network along the Afghan-Pakistan border?

You are offering excuses to explain away the fact that the US has not been able to use its 'awesome standoff weapons' to inflict any significant damage on the Haqqani network.

Perhaps US dependence on the ISI for intel for drone strikes is much greater than either side would like to admit ...

---------- Post added at 03:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:19 PM ----------

Excellent post.

So you see, both sides do exactly what they accuse the other of doing. Once we accept this, can we please discuss matters without riding the moral high-horse or expressing feigned indignation?

I have said all along that international geopolitics are not subject to mundane moral assessments. I am glad that you see the light, or at least are now admitting it.

You are assuming that I believe the allegations Asim is reporting ... I see no reason to take a different stance than I have. My post was merely meant to point out the hypocrisy in your indignant response to Asim, given your earlier 'might is right' arguments.

 

[Donatello]

That statement is correct, and will harm innocent kids who will be denied vaccinations by their poorly educated parents. I have said that before, and I will say it again, that using a vaccination program to gather intelligence was wrong.

It doesn't matter because:

1- the kids being affected now are not Americans so Americans don't care what happens ( natural human behavior)
2- Americans needed someone disposable, so they chose to buy out a Pakistani doctor....familiar with the region and population
3- The doctor himself should have had enough ethical insight to foresee the effects of such an action by him...that people will no longer trust vaccinations programs.

 

[happycanuck]

How great would it be for Pakistan, if few wrong coordinates are entered for the targets and at the same time all the corrupt heads of the government are present in the parliament and are announced dead the next day.

Why do you expect USA to clean up your house? Someone with in the country has planned and executed many political executions around the country in the past. Why not carry out your dreams yourself? Who is replace to those corrupt buggers? It will be huge undertaking. What the country needs a leader who without violence can lead the nation towards a peaceful and economic prosperity.

Right now whole generation is preoccupied with religious fervour. It is time to cool down the minds of citizen and assure them that peace and development of a nation should be the first and last priority. Whereas religion should be left to individuals. Nobody in the world can destroy or eliminate any religion but destruction will take place from with in if one does not follow the basic principal of humanity that is "Live and Let Live". I had to write this post in context of your post while it is not related to the topic of the thread. I would welcome criticism of my views for and against.

Peace.

 

[VCheng]

I'm mature enough, thank you for your concern. Instead of making personal attacks against me, can you respond as to why we need to have a justice system, the UN or any other international governing body/agencies in the world, if might is right?

My observation about you is based upon your comments, and thus is not a personal attack. Your naivete continues to show; UN, the ICJ, and all the international bodies that you look to are there to do the powers' bidding, not to satisfy any sense of justice.

.........................
You are assuming that I believe the allegations Asim is reporting ... I see no reason to take a different stance than I have. My post was merely meant to point out the hypocrisy in your indignant response to Asim, given your earlier 'might is right' arguments.

My response is neither hypocritical nor indignant, merely logical and factual. Whether you agree with Asim or not is irrelevant, since my comment addresses the issue directly, and your going round and round the intellectual bush cannot refute the basic soundness of the argument I have consistently put forward.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

My response is neither hypocritical nor indignant, merely logical and factual. Whether you agree with Asim or not is irrelevant, since my comment addresses the issue directly, and your going round and round the intellectual bush cannot refute the basic soundness of the argument I have consistently put forward.

What is your argument exactly?

You insist on defending the lack of evidence supporting US accusations and at the same time contest accusations from others similarly lacking substantiation - you insist on Pakistan bowing down to the US because the US is a 'superpower', and not because the US position is necessarily valid or correct, with respect to the Pakistani position.

What exactly do you find defensible in your positions, from a moral or ethical perspective?

 

[karan.1970]

My point is that the US and most Western analysts are pointing to North Waziristan and FATA as being the 'source' and 'safe havens' for the Haqqanis and their affiliates - if there is some other place 'deep in the North West of Pakistan', where is it, and why is that 'place' not being mentioned in terms of demanding action from Pakistan, rather than North Waziristan?

NW=North Waziristan..Not North West of Pakistan. Whole of North Waziristan is not the border area... Hope its clearer now

So why have the CIA drones not been effective in eliminating Haqqani HVT's and significantly damaging the Haqqani network, given that the CIA drones have free reign in North Waziristan and the US claims that is where the Haqqani network is finding safe haven?

As I said, the intensity of drone attacks may have been tempered keeping in mind, Pakistani sensitivities and the precarious position of the civilian govt in Pakistan..

Again, the US has been conducting a very intense 'drone war' in North Waziristan already, and the Haqqanis and AQ have both been declared targets of this 'drone war', why has the Haqqani Network not been taken out, and why has the US failed to carry out 'interdiction operations' against the Haqqani network along the Afghan-Pakistan border?

Intense is a very subjective word.. A couple drone strikes per week in a hugely terrorist infested area for me is hardly intense.. For me intense would be 4 drones active 24x7, continuously scanning Targets of opportunities with 8-10 hits a day.. What we have now is just an added tool of surgical strikes to eliminate sure shot HVTs..

You are offering excuses to explain away the fact that the US has not been able to use its 'awesome standoff weapons' to inflict any significant damage on the Haqqani network.
Perhaps US dependence on the ISI for intel for drone strikes is much greater than either side would like to admit

Why would I make excuses for USA.. None of my 2 flags have any kinds of stars in them I am simply stating that the weapons deployed in Pakistan theater of war are just an extremely small sub set of what exists in USA's arsenal. And if USA musters the will to do the deed in Pakistan, they certainly are not short of means to do that. About ISI, well, its a matter of a different debate that successes USA has had in eliminating HVT's in Pakistan, are because of or despite ISI..

 

[Bhairava]

Much like Sethi, I'm feeling in churning rumorville as well.

Another tidbit is that discussions are underway to convince Indian Army to attack Muridke while America attacks Miranshah. Suprisingly India is hesitant while America is pushing it the Indian operation has an expected civilian casualty rate of over 1000, upper limit may be higher given that due to India's weaponry the same level of accuracy can't be maintained.

Apparently India's main opposition is the fact that Americans are not giving any safeguards on whether or not India would be nuked in response and Americans are demanding that after attacking Muridke India gives a time frame for the referendum/plebiscite

Discussions in this regard were done 2 weeks ago.

Now my take is that Pakistan does have a lot of offensive capability. Simply put the bulk of American bases are right on the border and if Pakistan responds back it can very well decimate the entire American presence on Eastern Afghanistan through missiles. Of course America would then have to launch a full scale war against Pakistan.

For both India and America they can take on Pakistan in the initial attack and if it escalates into full scale war too. But there is just no answer to Pakistan's initial response other than hoping that Pakistan just doesn't respond.

My opinion is , if what you say is credible, then India must be smart enough NOT to attack Muridke.

Why waste time and money in attacking a place and unifying an already divided nation as I know nothing unites Pakistan as an attack by India (the reverse is same true).

The "status-qup" in Pakistan suits Indian interests much better .

Ofcourse if US gonna blitz up Pak all alone then its not my problem. Just watch from the sidelines.

What is your argument exactly?

You insist on defending the lack of evidence supporting US accusations and at the same time contest accusations from others similarly lacking substantiation - you insist on Pakistan bowing down to the US because the US is a 'superpower', and not because the US position is necessarily valid or correct, with respect to the Pakistani position.

What exactly do you find defensible in your positions, from a moral or ethical perspective?

Geo-politics does NOT run the ethical way. Might is Right mate. And you can decide for yourself who is might among the two.

 

[VCheng]

What is your argument exactly?

You insist on defending the lack of evidence supporting US accusations and at the same time contest accusations from others similarly lacking substantiation - you insist on Pakistan bowing down to the US because the US is a 'superpower', and not because the US position is necessarily valid or correct, with respect to the Pakistani position.

What exactly do you find defensible in your positions, from a moral or ethical perspective?

Firstly, for the umpteenth time, please let go of these quaint concepts like morality and ethics, since these are not applicable to international geopolitics.

Secondly, once you get over this mental block, my argument, and its supporting evidence will become clear enough to read the writing on the wall.

 

[Developereo]

I just pray that not a single Civillion get harmed but if it does happen then the pakistani army/ISI is to blame because they have used terrorists as a tool to gain influence in Afghanistan and to destabilize India, as per US generals.

I don't want to beat my wife but, if I do, it will be her fault.