US-PAKISTAN RELATIONSHIP

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Much has been written about this relationship, a lot has been said about it, even a president went overboard and wrote a book based upon his experience amongst many others.

I would also like to put my feelings, thoughts and experiences on the paper about this festering problem----the most misunderstood and complicated relationship between a super power and a minion.

One of the many issues that we face is about the identity crisis---the identity crisis of the pakistanis that they have of themselves and with themselves. We haven't even started to understand who we are---are we a people with a nation first or are we a people with a religion first---we have a history in the sub-cobtinent, but is that the history of our fore-fathers and us or some of us are looking at other gene pools and other nations to relate to our heritage.

How often we forget about the pathetic condition of the poor majority of the muslims of pakistan and want to relate ourselves with the persian, the arab or the turkish gene pools to claim our ethnic superiority. I believe that in that process of lying to ourselves about our true identity ( being a pakistani ) we have created false expectations about our ethnic and local superiority over other races and cultures.

Now bring to this equation the u s of a. We are one of the poorest of nations---the u s is one of the richest of the nations. Only our strategic geographic position forced us to chose side with either the soviets or the americans. Once we were forced to chose the americans over the russians, we made the decision once for all to which political block we will seek alliance with. Now we thought that only if we showed loyalty and were honest in our relationship---things were set for life. Never did we ever realize how far we lived away from the truth.

Once the relationship started, the pakistanis didnot know what to do next, to keep the things rolling in its favour and keep america on their side ( like israel ). The americans are traders with a warrior mentality, the pakistanis are either traders or warriors. The sales minded americans are always ready to make a better deal, the pakistanis on the other hand are absolutely clueless to what it means. Pakistanis in their naivette believe that the relationship is forever---the americans believe that there are other bigger and better things for them. Americans know that the pakistanis need them financially and for millitary aid---pakistanis know that the americans don't want russian influence in their state---but what about after the fact. There, the pakistanis got lost when the russians left afghanistan.

Pakistanis didnot realize the importance of the american public in their relationship with the u s government. As they had been a dictatorial society for centuries---where even elected officials ruled like monarchs, the pakistanis took the american public to be sub-servient to the american government. The pakistanis had a firm belief and still do, that if you had a good relationship with american government, the american public would fall in line. What a fool they made of themselves by misjudging the influence of the american public over their elected officials. The pakistanis simply refused top read the writing on the wall. The pakistanis simply refused to understand the relationship between israel and u s of a. Pakistan simply refused to understand the relationship between india and the u s of a.

Actually the poor pakistanis, to this day, have not been able to comprehend how to build a better relationship with the u s of a. They just simply don't want to believe what is right in front of their eyes. They simply don't want to believe that they made a mistake and there was an error in judgement and if they accept that---then there is a matter of this shame that we feel when we are wrong and then we don't want others to laugh at us---even though they won't---but we think that they would---so we would not admit to our mistakes.

Next thing is that the pakistanis living in america are so far away from the main stream americans in their daily dealings and living that even though they have lived here in the u s for years in and years out, they still live a different and segregated life from the americans. Most of them specially the parent generation---can't even look at the white americans in the eye and hold a friendly conversation. I don't blame them, because they may not be literate but even the younger people, the pakistanis have a hard hard time to mix with others.

In the 50's and 60's when the u s opened up its borders for pakistani and indian immigrants, the indian left india in droves---majority of them were educated, with university degrees in different field and once they reached the u s, they decided to make this country their home for good. Also the indian education system had similiarities with the u s education system when it came to qualify for professiopnal level education. The pakistanis on the other hand who came to the u s were less educated. Some of them who were, their degrees were not acceptable in the u s at first---they had to take extra courses to compensate---secondly the majority didnot come to stay in the u s for good. For them, it was just a temporary stay, till they saved a few dollars and then it was time to fly back to pakistan, buy a house, buy some land and then settle down. No effort was shown to mix with the american public or to understand the american psyche.

When 9/11 happened and the u s needed the pakistanis one more time---even though our relationship with the americans was extremely sour---we welcomed them with open arms out of fear and neccessity. Again at that stage we forgot with whom we were dealing with. Incidently we had a general on our side---who was clueless in how to make a better deal with the americans and his partners the Ch Shujaat group---equally clueless in how to talk with the americans.

Pakistanis should have agreed to a 150% demands of the americans right from the word and should have milked them dry right within the first 24 to 36 months of the campaign. But the problerm that surfaced again was that the pakistanis were clueless one more time as to how to talk and deal with the americans in their time of dire need.

A simple precondition to help the americans 150% of their demands should have been conditionally attached with the delivery of at least a 100 F 16 in the first 24 months---starting with 3 squadron strength plus accessories in the first six months of re-association from the existing american fleet and the remaining F 16 before the end of the 24 month period---the F 16's would be used blk 40's blk 52's. That should have been the litmus test for the co-operation with the u s---this should have been emphasized to the americans and the u s t v media all the time for the u s to show its sincerety to the pakistani public. The president should have been forced to make the prseidential order for the transfer rather than go through congress---if he can declare hostilities against another nation---helping their number one ally should have been the least of the problems.

Pkaistan should have taken every oppurtunity over the american t v media to force the point of the F 16's and told the american public the story how they were deceived---that the american government took their $650 millions and sat on it for 10 years and refused to give them the planes. The pakistanis should have sat the american public in the JURY BOX against the u s government on the t v media screens and cried their hearts out about the money and the merchandise being stolen from them. They should have started a media blitz so strong that the american public would have terrorized Pressler and Solariz for passing the sanctions on pakistan. Pakistan had those golden moments---they had american in the palm of their hands and they let them slip by.

For the pakistani government, the pakistani public meant to be a nobody---the emotions and reactions of the public were a least of their concern---even if they had no respect for the masses---still the masses could have been used as a tool to bargain and sweeten the deal. What better to shut the masses down and get a favourable opinion from them once you got the F 16's.

Now even if the pakistanis didnot have the tenacity---the americans on their own should have thought better and looked towards the future of what would be benevolent for them. But, truly---their judgement got clouded by their high tech weaponery, by their shock and awe techniques, by forgetting the basic of city and suburban warfare, by taking the pakistanis for granted the upteenth time---forcing their agenda over the afrghans, the pakistanis and everyone else involved, by just letting common sense slip away---they have made life a hell for their soldiers in afghanistan, they have made life a hell for the afghanis, they have made life a hell for the pakistanis as well.

If there ever is something like a fool's paradise of nations in the world hereafter and idiots get to live together again---and we get the oppurtunity to see who the occupants are----we will indeed see two nations suabling like fools on the other side of the veil---the americans on the high side---the pakistanis---as usual on the low side.

The bottomline is that we need to remember that america has a love hate relationship with us that lasts for 6 to 8 years--maybe 10. Now, how many times, do we need to be fooled into believing that it is other than that. It is just a matter of common sense---we are not equal to the americans in any sense---hence our relationship is not going to be on equal basis.

Look at our personal relationships. How do we treat our financially less fortunate relatives. If we marry a girl from a poor household, we make her life miserable for the rest of her life, if there is a boy married into a rich family, he is always looked down upon. We know that we the pakistanis of pakistan worship the god of wealth so where lies the shame in not accepting the truth about it.

Same thing holds true with our relatinship with america. If we don't treat our own poor relatives with equality and respect, how do we expect america to follow through and treat us like and equal.

 

[Omar1984]

^ Quaid-e-Azam did not find Pakistan so we can be run over by "global powers". Pakistan must look at her own best intersts first and for the intersts of over 172 million Pakistanis.

As for identity, our identity is Pakistani and our ideology is Islam.

The region of Pakistan had many invaders before the coming of Islam. Aryans, Huns, Greeks, Persians, Turks, Afghans, Arabs, Mughals all conquered the region of Pakistan so yes we see people with mixed gene pools in our population. The only invaders we didnt mix in with were the British.

 

[muse]

Wow! Truth Time. This is bound to make some of our emotional dwarfs Hoping mad, and judging from the previous post, denial is just the start.

Mastan

I found th eentire post compeling and I hope others will also.

we forget about the pathetic condition of the poor majority of the muslims of pakistan and want to relate ourselves with the persian, the arab or the turkish gene pools to claim our ethnic superiority. I believe that in that process of lying to ourselves about our true identity ( being a pakistani ) we have created false expectations about our ethnic and local superiority over other races and cultures.

Mastan

It is ideology over experience that continues to keep Pakistanis clueless. American diplomacy follows American interests. Pakistan was ahead of Korea in the 1960's but we long ideology and ever manner of socialist idea, just label it "awami" this or that or my persoanl favorite, "poor friendly" - and we think it moral and noble without examining that expoerience teaches us that it has been a continued failure.

Again, American diplomacy follows American interests - instead of involving American business in the Pakistani economy, we found the who bit about socialism and nationalized economy more promising, again, with results we should have known, after all, we have experience to show that it is a failure and today we have the same socialist claptreap dressed up as "Islamic" economics -

Next thing is that the pakistanis living in america are so far away from the main stream americans in their daily dealings and living that even though they have lived here in the u s for years in and years out, they still live a different and segregated life from the americans. Most of them specially the parent generation---can't even look at the white americans in the eye and hold a friendly conversation. I don't blame them, because they may not be literate but even the younger people, the pakistanis have a hard hard time to mix with others.

In the 50's and 60's when the u s opened up its borders for pakistani and indian immigrants, the indian left india in droves---majority of them were educated, with university degrees in different field and once they reached the u s, they decided to make this country their home for good. Also the indian education system had similiarities with the u s education system when it came to qualify for professiopnal level education. The pakistanis on the other hand who came to the u s were less educated. Some of them who were, their degrees were not acceptable in the u s at first---they had to take extra courses to compensate---secondly the majority didnot come to stay in the u s for good. For them, it was just a temporary stay, till they saved a few dollars and then it was time to fly back to pakistan, buy a house, buy some land and then settle down. No effort was shown to mix with the american public or to understand the american psyche

Again, victimized by their own ideology -- examine the Beliefs, VALUES and you will get to ATTITUDES -- unfortunately even today this persists and is enabled by those who refuse to exercise courage and challenge the kinds of beliefs, VALUES and attitudes that not only lock persons in cycles of failure but do not allow the kind of perosnal and cultural growth the opportunity to learn from others provides.

Thank you, thank you for demonstrating courage and inspiring others.

 

[Beskar]

^ Quaid-e-Azam did not find Pakistan so we can be run over by "global powers". Pakistan must look at her own best intersts first and for the intersts of over 172 million Pakistanis.

Please elaborate which global 'Powers' are you talking about? We've kept the soviets at bay when the time was right, we've basically kept a regional power 'India' at bay since the last 60+ years. We haven't been 'Run Over' by any global power. United States has been our ally for decades now and if it wasn't for it's continuous support and aid (Including access to Military technology) we pretty much would've been disintegrated by now. Yes, their own interest lies in the region and they've used us from time to time for their benefit but let's not get thankless and start blaming America for 'All' our problems by saying that we've been run over by them or any other 'Global Power' for that matter.

As for identity, our identity is Pakistani and our ideology is Islam.

Sadly that's just a fictional concept among Pakistani's now. Specially the youth. If our ideology was Islam since the start, we wouldn't have had 'Another' type of delusional, sadistic and unreasonable 'Islam' within our country right now, which is hell bent on taking over the capital. We never defined our country's primary Ideologies and our head's have been stuck so far up 'Democracy' and it's azz that we've never really given time to define our morality, principles and ideology.

As far as our Identity being 'Pakistani' is concerned, that's also going down the drain. The influx of Indian culture since the creation of our state hasn't seen any decline and we can see our arch rival's traditions, ceremonial themes, and choice of entertainment still being accepted within our society. If we stop with the obvious and emotional phrases, then the question arises, What 'Identity' are you talking about my friend?

We are being anesthetized before they cut us up and sell our pieces for spare parts. We are being told ever so subtly that it's OK to let go of our history, our culture, our values, and replace it with our neighbour's. Granted a lot needs to change in our own society, but WE should be the ones bringing about the change, WE should be the ones working for the betterment of our country. WE should be the ones who root out the evils in this land, and not sit around until someone comes out from nowhere and runs us over, finding it all the more easier to do so because of our complacent nature!

You'd rather see 'Political' and 'Religious' flags on top of our houses instead of a good old Pakistani flags. Reality is, anyone trying to be a little 'patriotic' in our society is instantly tagged as 'Paindu'. People would laugh at you if you try to display your flag in public.

The region of Pakistan had many invaders before the coming of Islam. Aryans, Huns, Greeks, Persians, Turks, Afghans, Arabs, Mughals all conquered the region of Pakistan so yes we see people with mixed gene pools in our population. The only invaders we didnt mix in with were the British.

If that's the justification used by all those morons who'd rather call themselves 'Persian/Turkish/Arab Pakistani's' than 'Pakistani's' then I literally feel sorry for them. "Unity, Faith, Discipline" is the ONLY thing that might get us somewhere and divert us from our much predicted demise. Sadly, it's now known as a 'Thing of the Past'.

 

[Omar1984]

Please elaborate which global 'Powers' are you talking about? We've kept the soviets at bay when the time was right, we've basically kept a regional power 'India' at bay since the last 60+ years. We haven't been 'Run Over' by any global power. United States has been our ally for decades now and if it wasn't for it's continuous support and aid (Including access to Military technology) we pretty much would've been disintegrated by now. Yes, their own interest lies in the region and they've used us from time to time for their benefit but let's not get thankless and start blaming America for 'All' our problems by saying that we've been run over by them or any other 'Global Power' for that matter.

America is not to be blamed for ALL of our problems but they are to be blamed for some of our problems. Pakistan was doing much better before America and India made their prescence in Afghanistan. Never in the history of Pakistan did we ever see a single case of suicide bombings inside Pakistan until this war on terror was brought to our region by Bush Jr. who called this war a crusade a few days after 9/11.
No other country's interst should come before Pakistan's interst. Pakistan is also a nation and as any nation Pakistan should look for her own best interst first.

Sadly that's just a fictional concept among Pakistani's now. Specially the youth. If our ideology was Islam since the start, we wouldn't have had 'Another' type of delusional, sadistic and unreasonable 'Islam' within our country right now, which is hell bent on taking over the capital. We never defined our country's primary Ideologies and our head's have been stuck so far up 'Democracy' and it's azz that we've never really given time to define our morality, principles and ideology.

There was no threat of Islamic extremism before 9/11. From 1947-2001, Pakistanis were following their religion just fine. Why is there a scare now? Why are people questioning what is right way to practice Islam and wrong way just now? Why are people scared that some "extremist" might take over the capital now? Where was all this before Bush decided to invade our neighboring country and invited his buddy India over?

As far as our Identity being 'Pakistani' is concerned, that's also going down the drain. The influx of Indian culture since the creation of our state hasn't seen any decline and we can see our arch rival's traditions, ceremonial themes, and choice of entertainment still being accepted within our society. If we stop with the obvious and emotional phrases, then the question arises, What 'Identity' are you talking about my friend?

We are being anesthetized before they cut us up and sell our pieces for spare parts. We are being told ever so subtly that it's OK to let go of our history, our culture, our values, and replace it with our neighbour's. Granted a lot needs to change in our own society, but WE should be the ones bringing about the change, WE should be the ones working for the betterment of our country. WE should be the ones who root out the evils in this land, and not sit around until someone comes out from nowhere and runs us over, finding it all the more easier to do so because of our complacent nature!

You'd rather see 'Political' and 'Religious' flags on top of our houses instead of a good old Pakistani flags. Reality is, anyone trying to be a little 'patriotic' in our society is instantly tagged as 'Paindu'. People would laugh at you if you try to display your flag in public.

So are you saying that Pakistanis would rather call themselves Indian today than being called Pakistanis? You are wrong my friend, I dont know any Pakistani who wants to be Indian. Tell me where in Pakistan its "paindu" to carry a Pakistani flag?

If that's the justification used by all those morons who'd rather call themselves 'Persian/Turkish/Arab Pakistani's' than 'Pakistani's' then I literally feel sorry for them. "Unity, Faith, Discipline" is the ONLY thing that might get us somewhere and divert us from our much predicted demise. Sadly, it's now known as a 'Thing of the Past'.

Which Pakistani calls himself/herself Persian/Turkish/Arab instead of Pakistani?
You know many Pakistanis may have a Persian/Turkish/Arab mother/father/grandfather/grandmother...well then its up to them if they chose to identify themselves as being Pakistani or whatever other half they are. We should be proud of the things they left us, its also part of our history. For example, the Arab Muhammad Bin Qasim brought Islam to Pakistan and the Mughals brought spectacular architecture and art into Pakistan. Thats also part of Pakistan's history and culture.
Most Pakistanis who have both Pakistani parents and all Pakistani grandparents call themselves Pakistanis, some can trace their ancestory to Arabs, Turks, Persians...thats their family history, they still dont deny they are Pakistanis.

 

[muse]

what in your opinon accounts for the popularity of indian culture in Pakistan? Is it the lack of Pakistani culture that people are hoping to substitute?

Entertainment is unislamic, Love, which even regional subcultures have epic poems and stroes about, has been banished as unislamic, the display of love and affection so long as sexes are different, is unIslamic, dance is unislamic, music is unislamic, fashion and ornamentation is unislamic - flogging women is Islamic though, curious. Film is Unislamic, acting in theatres and film is unislamic, going outside your home without a male family member is unislamic, voting is unislamic, coca cola may well be haram, having a choice is unislamic, free will is unislamic and art and culture of pakistan and any part of the world some beards imagines not to be 7th certury arabia, is unIslamic

Women are the most conservative element in the culture of Pakistan but that does not mean she is looking forward to be anything less than a person -

Can the people be blamed for wanting to see culture and experience a sense of freedom and glamour, and dance and song and love, love? It's what Pakistanis want, instead of complaining about it, Pakistan should lift all restrictions on Pakistani art and culture, ensure that artists are safe and allow the people to be free to choose and to have very very many choices, after all Pakistan belongs to them and not imports from Arabia. Pakistani history is UnIslamic, the aspirations of Pakistani Youth are unislamic -- what can I tell you, we all know the truth

Perhaps if Pakistan were to allow and enable arts and culture without reference to the beards than may be pakistani culture will flourish again and allow Pakistanis to reconnect with pakistan.

In the more than 1000 years history of Islam in the subcontinenent when was ideology necessary for a Muslim to be a Muslim? When was one ever forced to be a Muslim?? Muslims are about faith not ideology.

 

[Omar1984]

what in your opinon accounts for the popularity of indian culture in Pakistan? Is it the lack of Pakistani culture that people are hoping to substitute?

Entertainment is unislamic, Love, which even regional subcultures have epic poems and stroes about, has been banished as unislamic, the display of love and affection so long as sexes are different, is unIslamic, dance is unislamic, music is unislamic, fashion and ornamentation is unislamic - flogging women is Islamic though, curious. Film is Unislamic, acting in theatres and film is unislamic, going outside your home without a male family member is unislamic, voting is unislamic, coca cola may well be haram, having a choice is unislamic, free will is unislamic and art and culture of pakistan and any part of the world some beards imagines not to be 7th certury arabia, is unIslamic

Women are the most conservative element in the culture of Pakistan but that does not mean she is looking forward to be anything less than a person -

Can the people be blamed for wanting to see culture and experience a sense of freedom and glamour, and dance and song and love, love? It's what Pakistanis want, instead of complaining about it, Pakistan should lift all restrictions on Pakistani art and culture, ensure that artists are safe and allow the people to be free to choose and to have very very many choices, after all Pakistan belongs to them and not imports from Arabia. Pakistani history is UnIslamic, the aspirations of Pakistani Youth are unislamic -- what can I tell you, we all know the truth

Perhaps if Pakistan were to allow and enable arts and culture without reference to the beards than may be pakistani culture will flourish again and allow Pakistanis to reconnect with pakistan.

In the more than 1000 years history of Islam in the subcontinenent when was ideology necessary for a Muslim to be a Muslim? When was one ever forced to be a Muslim?? Muslims are about faith not ideology.

Pakistan has beautiful culture and much of our culture is influenced by the Mughal empire (which Indians also share the Mughal culture). Turn on geo tv, you'll see drama, plays, music, dances, entertainment. Pakistan has that in our society and Pakistani films were way better than Indian films in the 50s and the 60s. Infact its Indian film industry that copied Pakistan's music and movies. We were doing fine from 1947-2001, even doing fine today its just Swat and some areas near the border with Afghanistan, but that area was the most peaceful areas in Pakistan before Bush brought his war into the region.

Here, take a look at Pakistani entertainment in this thread.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/genera...538-greatest-songs-pakistan-past-present.html

Pakistan is not lacking in anything dont be so pessimistic.

 

[Beskar]

America is not to be blamed for ALL of our problems but they are to be blamed for some of our problems. Pakistan was doing much better before America and India made their prescence in Afghanistan. Never in the history of Pakistan did we ever see a single case of suicide bombings inside Pakistan until this war on terror was brought to our region by Bush Jr. who called this war a crusade a few days after 9/11.
No other country's interst should come before Pakistan's interst. Pakistan is also a nation and as any nation Pakistan should look for her own best interst first.

I'm sorry to say this, But I've noticed in a LOT of your posts that you usually rely on 'Fashion Statements' and 'Emotional' liners to get your message across. Which In my opinion isn't the best way to debate anywhere.

Let's break it down shall we?

You said that Pakistan was doing 'Much' better before the American and Indian presence in Afghanistan. To some degree, you're right about that. But I think you're forgetting the fact that throughout our history, we've been through far more difficult times than what we're going through now. We've always been neck deep in troubles we never could comprehend because of our strategic importance and location, but somehow we've always been able to pull ourselves up back on our feet. Specially after the creation of Bangladesh.

Now you're so confident that if we wouldn't have helped the Americans in their so called 'WOT', all our problems that exist today, wouldn't exist. After 9/11, the ENTIRE American population, American Government, and American allies were thirsty for blood. Simply because a superpower was attacked on their home turf, in BROAD day light, killing innocent civilians. Do you REALLY think, that a Superpower that has been able to support, finance, and fight TWO wars at the SAME time for the past 8 years, wouldn't have been able to disable our ENTIRE state? Don't give me the 'We're a nuclear power they can't do anything' rhetoric because it wouldn't have been a problem for the Americans to disable and isolate us with a smile on their face. Would you have rather accepted TOTAL annihilation of our country instead of helping a Superpower that was being supported by almost EVERY nation in the world to go to war with ANYONE responsible for those attacks? Get real!

Oh and one more thing, hypothetically speaking of course, even if Pakistan WOULDN'T have joined the WOT, and if for some miracle America would've accepted our decision about not joining the WOT, are you SO naive to believe that we never would've had this Insurgency? How would've you planned to take care of the thousands and thousands of foreign fighters that would've poured INTO our society from Afghanistan (because of this same American invasion) because of lack of border security and protection? They would've entered anyway even if we weren't a part of this WOT. Allies or no allies, Taliban WOULD'VE entered our society and the Pakistani Taliban elements within FATA still would've been a problem for us sooner or later.

There was no threat of Islamic extremism before 9/11. From 1947-2001, Pakistanis were following their religion just fine. Why is there a scare now? Why are people questioning what is right way to practice Islam and wrong way just now? Why are people scared that some "extremist" might take over the capital now? Where was all this before Bush decided to invade our neighboring country and invited his buddy India over?

Please! Get real. What Islam are you talking about? Offering Namaz and fasting isn't exactly the 'Islam' that I was talking about. From our constitution to our Governance, Islam was ALWAYS kept aside from our way of life. Who defines your way of life? Your COUNTRY, your GOVERNMENTS and how they portray their image to the rest of the world, do. Do you really think that we've been a 'Muslim' country all these years? The very BASIC tradition of life in our society, which is marriage, STILL to this day has a specific day DEDICATED to a 'Hindu' tradition/ceremony and it's being followed since our creation. What Islam are you talking about my friend?

So are you saying that Pakistanis would rather call themselves Indian today than being called Pakistanis? You are wrong my friend, I dont know any Pakistani who wants to be Indian. Tell me where in Pakistan its "paindu" to carry a Pakistani flag?

Don't imagine things I never talked about. I never said that we'd rather call ourselves Indians but what I DID say was that we don't have an original IDENTITY any more and that's a FACT from our society. Just look around you. I don't know which Pakistani's you've been interacting with but coming from a Military family that has travelled and lived in almost every major city of Pakistan, I can ASSURE you that loss of 'Identity' and 'Insecurity' about one's nationality exists since a long time now. As I said earlier, don't rely on 'Fashion Statements' to get your point across. If you really live in Pakistan, look around and you'd see what I'm talking about. Starting from today's youth which basically is going to architect our tomorrow.

Which Pakistani calls himself/herself Persian/Turkish/Arab instead of Pakistani?
You know many Pakistanis may have a Persian/Turkish/Arab mother/father/grandfather/grandmother...well then its up to them if they chose to identify themselves as being Pakistani or whatever other half they are. We should be proud of the things they left us, its also part of our history. For example, the Arab Muhammad Bin Qasim brought Islam to Pakistan and the Mughals brought the spectacular architecture and art into Pakistan. Thats also part of Pakistan's history and culture.
Most Pakistanis who have both Pakistani parents and all Pakistani grandparents call themselves Pakistanis, some can trace their ancestory to Arabs, Turks, Persians...that their family history, they still dont deny they are Pakistanis.

That's another one of those fashion statements that I've been talking about. Let's not even GET into the whole 'Persian/Turkish/Arab' genealogy claims and start from our PROVINCIAL level of ignorance and insecurities. It's a cold hard REALITY that our people have been stuck in this dilemma that they're Sindhi/balochi/Punjabi/Pashtun first and Pakistani LATER! From our own country to Pakistani's living abroad, Identity is a BIG crisis and anyone trying to deny that fact is in a spiralling denial himself.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Just a reminder, there are multiple threads that have the US-Pakistan relationship being discussed. I merged a couple of threads into this one.

The other thread with a similar title is here:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/12923-pak-us-relationship.html

I believe MK wanted a separate thread on the relationship post "New Afghan Strategy", so I am leaving this thread alone for now.

 

[MastanKhan]

Just a reminder, there are multiple threads that have the US-Pakistan relationship being discussed. I merged a couple of threads into this one.

The other thread with a similar title is here:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/12923-pak-us-relationship.html

I believe MK wanted a separate thread on the relationship post "New Afghan Strategy", so I am leaving this thread alone for now.

Hi,


No thanks for killing my post----putting it in the worst possible place---with posts that had no relation to it except for the title---only news item posts before that---what a poor judgement by a mod.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Hi,


No thanks for killing my post----putting it in the worst possible place---with posts that had no relation to it except for the title---only news item posts before that---what a poor judgement by a mod.

The thread and associated posts have been restored to a separate status.

Please provide more detailed reasons and explanations next time on why you wish a thread, with subject matter and title similar to others, not be merged.

Please continue your discourse.

 

[MastanKhan]

Gentlemen,

I never thought that it would come down to this---but then I thought to further dig in and do a little more footwork---now I am neither an astrologer nor a palm reader but looking at this information in comparison to our relationship with u s of a I am astounded by the truth in this celestial compatibility comparison---that the stars would be rising or the heavens involved to decide our fate. When you get further down into this article---just check out the dates of compatibility between the cancer and leo----just look at the irony of our fate

USA Pakistan INDIA
4 JULY 14 AUG 15 AUG
Cancer + Leo + Leo

Water + Fire + Fire = Steam



The enthusiastic and confident Leo could be the perfect solution for you, Cancer. If you lack self-confidence, Leo will lift your spirits and make you feel better than you’ve felt in a long time. Conversely, your sensitive and loving ways will make Leo feel appreciated.

The Sun rules Leo and the Moon rules Cancer. This is a classic combination in astrology: the Moon rules the feminine principles of nurturing, sensitive love, and Leo rules the principles of masculine, fiery aggression.

Though these principles seem diametrically opposed, blending them leads to the process of creation — and relationship between man and woman. This partnership will have a strong karmic connection, balancing the principles of male and female. This should result in a thoroughly positive outcome.

Fire heats water, thereby creating steam, and water can quell and dampen the fire of creativity. This interplay of elements is at the heart of the Cancer/Leo combination. It’s vital for each of you to let the other be who they are: no judging, no controlling.

Leos must soften their approach, and you must learn to stand on your own two feet and not need constant approval. On this basis the relationship will work. Otherwise, elementally speaking, the fire of love will be drowned in the waters of your emotion.

Your best Leo partners are those born between 15 August and 23 August. You may meet these people through your work. The extreme of this is the clandestine relationship with a boss or employer. Expect lots of passion and an intense love life with these Leos.

Those born between 23 July and 4 August could also have a financial or professional tie-in with you. These Leos are lucky for you on a material level — they are your proverbial rabbit’s foot. Your energies blend well, and you stimulate their ambitions. In return, they are happy to lavish gifts and financial favours upon you. Not a bad arrangement if money, status and power are what you’re after.

Those born between 5 August and 14 August are co-ruled by Jupiter and are not very compatible with you. You feel overpowered by them. They tend to shoot for the stars without much preparation. This makes you uncomfortable and insecure; you prefer to know where you’re going and when you’re likely to get there.

Also, they are spontaneous and sometimes over-confident, and can come across as arrogant. You won’t like that at all.


I hope you peo[ple enjoyed this article of compatibility.


Horoscope Compatibility - Check your Compatibility

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

In a successful relationship between two beings, either you have common goals, or you are in love with each other, you feel secure in the relationship, you feel nurtured in the relationship, you are in need and your neccessities are being looked after by the other partner plus so many other things that keep the wheels turning in the same direction.

Then there comes a time that there are people who donot like the relationship to prosper further---so they decide to throw a monkey wrench in the gears---now what are we going to do---we can't stop anyone all the time not to meddle in our affairs. But when there are others who are ready and very keen to take our place and they are ready to do whatever is possible in their power and the power of their friends to create a rift between us two----then isn't it about time we create a strategy and gamesmanship to over overcome those negative issues that are being hurled at us that are driving a stake through are relationship and stop crying like whimpering bi--tc--hes. Isn't it about time we acted like men and fought to take what is ours---even if it is a relationship amongst two nations.

Things that you cherish the most---you have to fight the most to keep them with you---because there are others who would want to take them away from you and make them as their own. Now you ask this question---as to why would they succeed---where we failed---they succeeded, first of all they didnot make any issue an issue about their egos, they were thankful for small favour and large favours--whereas we were grumbling and long faced all the time---whereas they made sure where their priorities lay---short term and long term---we were on the other hand not even sure of what that meant. They realized that they were the weaker partner in the relationship---so they acknowledged it as such---just like a woman becomes submissive to a man---and all through this process they opened their market wide apart for the other to enter at will and do whatsoever as they pleased---which indeed was a ruse to start with---but then does anyone care how the fly enters the honey trap---once it is in---the flower closes its petals over it and swallows it as a whole.

In our current relationship with america, after 9/11, our current goal was the containment of al qaeda on the borders of afghanistan. Once we had realized and found out that america was not going to give enough time to Mullah Omar to hand over Bin Laden and co---we should have realized the ulterior motives of the u s of a. We should have realized that the u s of a, once more, wanted to get back into the region millitarily. The soviet union was getting stronger one more time---pakistan had become a nuclear power since the last russian afghan war---geo political scenarios had changed dramitically---the u s of a was on the move one more time to create border out post in far off regions to secure its center.

I hear a saying---in order for you to conquer the mountain---you got to fear the slope---for that is where you will get killed---if you are not prepared. The fear to survive makes you prepare harder and get ready to face the worst possible circumstance when climbing the mountain. Unless you don't learn to fear your enemy's potential---you would never prepare and get ready to fight that enemy to your fullest potential.

For that same reason---the presence of the americans on the afghan soil was taken for granted by most of the pakistani generals, the politicians and the pakistani public. What followed through is a shame for what the hsitory books will judge us by, being blinded by our personal and communal arrogance of not fearing death, by being blinded by our very ignorance about the seriousness of the developing situation and threat at hand, by being totally unaware of the anger and the momentum of the forces readied to be unleashed in afghanistan---by falling back on the old rhetoric of afghanistan being a graveyard of foreign armies---by just simply failing to understand that the world just changed at around 9' 0 clock on 9/11 for whatever reason that you may want to believe or disbelieve in.

There were 3000 lying dead in the u s of a---u s of a mainland, never touched ---never attacked before in any manner---a sleeping giant was hurt---and a lots of pakistanis were excited about how the giant was shaking at its knees after the actions. It has become sort of a joke in pakistan---now didn't it. Pakistanis were commenting on the amwerican news media in a very non-chalant manner as to how the giant was brought down to its knees and we all heard it on cnn and other channels---we were so happy in our hearts and souls that here is the nation who decieved us in our time of need---which stole our 650 million dollars---and stole our F 16's from us---and made us weak in front of our enemies---who left us 10 years ago high and dry without looking back over their shoulders and giving a second thought to if we were anyone to beconsidered enough to have shouldered the largest burden of the cold war together. They walked away from us with a cold heart---they walked away from us with a heart of stone---they never ever gave a second thought to our sacrifices and to the committment to the cause that we shared with them right from day one to the very end. They left left standing all alone in our backyard---the only way the americans are known to leave anyone else---I want to move ahead with my life---east is east and west is west---never shall the twain meet.

The divorce was sudden and immediate, the shock monumental, the instance momentuous, the timing the worst possible that it could be, and then the worst they could do to us was to steal our 650 million and keep it forcedly for 10 years, without having the decency to make ammends.

After 9/11, when they made the demands to us ' either you are with us or against us ' and threatened us to to be sent to stone age---we should have realized and analyzed the situation in a calm and cool manner with the surgical precision of a neurosurgeon in understanding the outcome of the impending aggression against the taliban and the al qaeda and then later on, our own beloved nation of pakistan. We should have studied hard and deep---if we let the americans come in full force into afghanistan, what the future implications of this endeavour would be.

But truly---we threw all caution to the wind---right from the top---from our senior most millitaru generals to the minions like the street vendors claimed for another vietnam coming for the u s forces. The rhetoric and bravado were in full swing---the cool calculative thinking of someone of he calibre of Salahudding Ayubi were nowhere to be noticed and heard of. There was this only one thing on the minds of the pakistanis---america is going to face its vietnam---they had no clue about the death and destruction of life and property to the vietnamese in the process. CONTD

 

[muse]

Mastan

I feel for you and appreciate getting the thread back.

Seems to me a constant failure among us is that we have a problem with reality - this problem is part and parcel of the anti-knowledge (ILM) foundation in and among influential power centers in Pakistan.

During the Afghan war, Pakistanis discovered radical Islamism and for Pakikstan the war not only did not end, it was transformed - Afghan friends always ask why if islam was so good for Afghanistan do you Pakistanis not want to for yourself.

The strong affinity for Radical islamism and the absolute identification with the vehicle of Islamist terrorism, it seems to be at the heart of problem with reality your last post points towards. But of course, the role of leadership is key - leadership shapes and channels public values and thought, whereas in Pakistan, with the exception of Musharaff, we have such dismal quality of leadership that it has allowed radical islamists to offer themselves as leaders to Pakistanis.

Even now, as is evident on this forum, so many are wedded to this evil that all kinds of conspiracy and all kinds "Real taliB" "real Islam", "real Shariah" are touted out as excuses for the misery that islamism has brought Pakistan. And ofcourse who is to blame for this failure? Once again, since they reject ILM, they must take recourse to an emotionalism born from the ideology of victimhood, it's the Indian, whose behind we will one day kick, it's the israeli, who those pakistanis who imagine themselves arabs, will one day kick Israeli behind, or Russian behind, or Shi'ah Iranian behind --

Stable and inspired Leadership, in my opinion, is a prescription for Pakistan, but the obvious and entirely valid critique is that unless institutionalized Pakistan will not be able to transition out of ignorance into using ILM as a framework, as a lens, through which to experience, evaluate and act in the world.

You have pointed to response, to the kind of understanding of the events of 9/11 - I ask any Pakistani, was that a reflection of the ethics and morailty of your parent's islam ?.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Once we had realized and found out that america was not going to give enough time to Mullah Omar to hand over Bin Laden and co---we should have realized the ulterior motives of the u s of a. We should have realized that the u s of a, once more, wanted to get back into the region millitarily. The soviet union was getting stronger one more time---pakistan had become a nuclear power since the last russian afghan war---geo political scenarios had changed dramitically---the u s of a was on the move one more time to create border out post in far off regions to secure its center.

Mastan Khan, a partnership also cannot be sustained if the parties are not honest about the motives of the other. In the above paragraph you fall for the self-serving hypothesis that the US move into Afghanistan was imperialist. It was retribution, pure and simple, followed with a desire to prevent a recurrence of the al Qaeda attack. You can never be my friend if you cannot or will not accept my honest explanation of my motives for an action that you disagree with. As a friend, you may fault my reasoning, or call me stupid, but you cannot deny that I think what I think. Today, most Pakistanis do not want to be friends with the USA and, unfortunately, most Americans could care less.