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US not to back dictators in future, says Clinton

Oh how easily you picked up only few cases and left over the other ones where you were supporing the dictators directly.

I think there was someone called Zia or Musharraf if i am not forgetting these names and there is someone ine egypt too :sick:
Har...The point here is that neither side, in any bilateral relationship, truly has an absolute say on the nature of the leadership of the other. It is actually more difficult to deal with US since we have regular regime changes every four years whereas dictatorships usually endure and understand others' nature quite well since each is pretty much a mirror image among themselves. I have no need to go beyond those few examples. Any cursory reading of history, even when resorting to wikipedia, will reveal that dictators are more often than not home grown. Yes...It is indeed 'sick', as your emote so well expressed, that the ME is filled with nothing but dictatorships.
 
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No more than the rulers of any other country that has allied itself to the US. Ordinary people in Pakistani or of Pakistani origin, as much as they like to rant themselves hoarse at America's foreign policy, still like nothing more than to get US citizenship. Point being, everyone interacts with the 'Great Devil' in whatever capacity they can, some do it for their country while others for personal gain.

Sir
Are these not the elites whose sons and daughters are residing and willing to do anything to reside in US.The problem is a complex one and pertains to the way we have had dual educational system. As a consequence we are generating fodder(excuse the pun and it includes myself as well) for the developed markets. The rest is who so ever is good enough follows the leaders. it is interesting that even Pseudoislamists like Zia and even Mr notso Sharif have inspite of their ranting not tackled the one problem which could have turned this country around__ the way we educate our young.
If only Bhutto had any shred of nationalism in his heart.
Araz
 
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Har...The point here is that neither side, in any bilateral relationship, truly has an absolute say on the nature of the leadership of the other. It is actually more difficult to deal with US since we have regular regime changes every four years whereas dictatorships usually endure and understand others' nature quite well since each is pretty much a mirror image among themselves. I have no need to go beyond those few examples. Any cursory reading of history, even when resorting to wikipedia, will reveal that dictators are more often than not home grown. Yes...It is indeed 'sick', as your emote so well expressed, that the ME is filled with nothing but dictatorships.

Gambit
You know this as well as I do that not only their instalment but also their removal(dead or alive!!!) and instalment of a puppet political government in pakistan is orchestrated by our friends.
In gneneral we as a nation have (please excuse me for the statement!)a begger mentality. You see people always sitting and hoping for outside interference to alleviate their problems, just like beggers waiting for alms. This is what annoys me the most.Our elites and in fact the army reinforces this role by interfering in the political system for its own petty benefits and has not let the people come out of this cycle where they realize that no one from outside is coming in to help us. The day we realize this basic fact and galvanize people on the basis of our own resources, Pakistan will turn the corner and be a country for everyone to be proud of. it is not the role of the army to do this and the political system needs to flush out or down the refuse it has collected over the last 2-3 decades of off again on again democracy, before people will come round to this idea.
The irony of it all is that we see many examples of individual enterprises following the route and flourishing but it has not yet translated into the national mainstream.
Araz
 
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It seemed like half the questions were about drone attacks, when are we going to see a little honesty from Pakistans politicians on this issue.

General characteristics

Crew: none
Length: 27 ft (8.22 m)
Wingspan: 48.7 ft (14.8 m (dependent on block of aircraft))
Height: 6.9 ft (2.1 m)
Wing area: 123.3 sq ft[49] (11.5 m²)
Empty weight: 1,130 lb[50] (512 kg)
Loaded weight: 2,250 lb (1,020 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 2,250 lb[50] (1,020 kg)
Powerplant: 1× Rotax 914F turbocharged Four-cylinder engine, 115 hp[50] (86 kW)
Performance

Maximum speed: 135 mph (117 knots, 217 km/h)
Cruise speed: 81–103 mph (70–90 knots, 130–165 km/h)
Stall speed: 62 mph (54 knots (dependent on weight of aircraft), 100 km/h)
Range: >2,000 nm[51] (3,704 km, 2,302 miles)
Service ceiling: 25,000 ft [50] (7,620 m)

Think something the size of a bus traveling about the speed of a bus ( well on a good road with the driver running late) flying in circles at the one spot for hours. If Pakistan doesnt want them their they are gone you couldnt pick an easier gun shot for pilot trainning, so we have to assume the armed forces want drone attacks.

We have seen multiple reports here of the ISI providing targeting information for drone attacks, well at least any time there is a major sucess, so we can assume the ISI wants drone attacks.

They are armed and flown from bases in pakistan that the goverment could close if they wanted, so we have to assume the goverment wants drone attacks.

When is some one with balls going to stand up in parliment and say that the Army, ISI and goverment are all agreed that the drones are an unpesant but important tool in the fight against the taliban and admit they authorised the attacks rather than claiming credit when a major player is taken out and at other times accuse the US of attacking Pakistan?
 
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As a consequence we are generating fodder(excuse the pun and it includes myself as well) for the developed markets.
Araz Bhai,

Who wants to leave his family, his friends, his country behind? When I left Pakistan back in 2001, I was left with not but this option. I did my MSc in Biochem with distinction, had five first author publications, three in the international Journals including Am. J. Trop. Med. Hyg (those who work in the field of parasitology, AJTMH needs no introduction) and several awards. I wanted to do PhD yet wanted to remain in Pakistan with my family and friends. I was forced to waste three years of my life shuttling between HEJ and KRL while published only one international paper. By the end of 1999, I was so frustrated that I left my PhD in the middle and joined AKU. Because of my not so bad CV, I had no problem joining AKU where within the first year, my supervisors asked me to leave Pakistan for good and do PhD abroad. I listened to them and did my PhD abroad. My Dad has recently diagnosed with a tumor in his throat, and I wanted to go back. I have over 20 publications with two highly competitive NIH research grants as a PI, and over two dozen awards. Guess what? I am not getting a position in major Pakistani Universities. Living in US, is this my choice? I know my father needs me, but my wife and two very young kids also need me. I will go to Pakistan on my heart beat, but how will I support my kids there, this is a big question. I personally know a number of Pakistanis who have shared similar stories with each other. We all think about Pakistan every day, we all miss families and friends, we all want to go back; but what next? Frustration, frustration and frustration.

We who are residing abroad do our best to represent our homeland. And those of us who are granted some opportunity by Allah, do our level best to help Pakistan and Pakistanis in every possible way. We prefer to hire Pakistani nationals on research positions so that they could come over here, get themselves trained and do the same. We try to establish collaborations with groups and individuals working in Pakistan so that they could also benefit. But I am so sorry to say that these folks are more interested in making a trip to US and Europe waste money and go back only to pay a second visit as soon as possible. I have been to several big Science meetings around the world in past 7 years, and never once did I see more than a couple of Pakistanis presenting their work in those meetings. On the other hand, you find number of Chinese and Indians. Just last year I was presenting in Keystone symposium at Banff, Alberta. Not one Scientists of Pakistani origin was there will you believe, not a single one other than me. This is where we are standing and we complaint about God knows what.

What I wrote above was not for self-praising but only to show that how difficult it is made for many of us to come back and to serve our country.
 
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You know this as well as I do that not only their instalment but also their removal(dead or alive!!!) and instalment of a puppet political government in pakistan is orchestrated by our friends.

In simple words in is orchestrated by US and Military alliance.


In gneneral we as a nation have (please excuse me for the statement!)a begger mentality.

Maybe you speak for your self here.

You see people always sitting and hoping for outside interference to alleviate their problems, just like beggers waiting for alms. This is what annoys me the most.

Liberal fascist with a slave mentality and western pirated intellect are convinced they should always be salve to western hegemony.

Our elites and in fact the army reinforces this role by interfering in the political system for its own petty benefits and has not let the people come out of this cycle where they realize that no one from outside is coming in to help us.

Army is the prime contractor of US in Pakistan. Army should defend the borders and mind its own business. Military Dictators have ruined Pakistan. At least the current COAS gives me some hope.


it is not the role of the army to do this and the political system needs to flush out or down the refuse it has collected over the last 4-5 decades of off again on again democracy, before people will come round to this idea.

Will you stop the next Military dictator? People are against it but trigger happy generals with US backing have always played with Pakistan.

it is interesting that even Pseudoislamists like Zia and even Mr notso Sharif have inspite of their ranting not tackled the one problem which could have turned this country around

Blame is equally shared by liberal Fascist like Zulfiqar and Baby Bhutto and Busharraf.
 
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qsaark;534930

Who wants to leave his family, his friends, his country behind? When I left Pakistan back in 2001, I was left with not but this option. I did my MSc in Biochem with distinction, had five first author publications, three in the international Journals including Am. J. Trop. Med. Hyg (those who work in the field of parasitology, AJTMH needs no introduction) and several awards. I wanted to do PhD yet wanted to remain in Pakistan with my family and friends. I was forced to waste three years of my life shuttling between HEJ and KRL while published only one international paper. By the end of 1999, I was so frustrated that I left my PhD in the middle and joined AKU. Because of my not so bad CV, I had no problem joining AKU where within the first year, my supervisors asked me to leave Pakistan for good and do PhD abroad. I listened to them and did my PhD abroad. My Dad has recently diagnosed with a tumor in his throat, and I wanted to go back. I have over 20 publications with two highly competitive NIH research grants as a PI, and over two dozen awards. Guess what? I am not getting a position in major Pakistani Universities. Living in US, is this my choice? I know my father needs me, but my wife and two very young kids also need me. I will go to Pakistan on my heart beat, but how will I support my kids there, this is a big question. I personally know a number of Pakistanis who have shared similar stories with each other. We all think about Pakistan every day, we all miss families and friends, we all want to go back; but what next? Frustration, frustration and frustration
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So who is responsible for that my friend? You can not blame this on Pakistan. It is your fault that you are faster then the system. The system will shape its self the way it wants to or you have to contribute something your self otherwise to make it run faster. Simply going abroad wont help it (i am not against going abroad, but if your concerns are genuine for Pakistan then your not doing good for the same). Charity begins at home.

I was having same situation in India, i was simply; selfish, too scared to enter into the system to contribute for a change and absconded.

I know few people living back home will criticize me but i developed an excuse myself that they are jealous of me cause they were not having the same opportunity as i was having.

We who are residing abroad do our best to represent our homeland.

No we are not, If you are accepted back home which you are not as you said then your representation in foreign land is negligible.


And those of us who are granted some opportunity by Allah, do our level best to help Pakistan and Pakistanis in every possible way. We prefer to hire Pakistani nationals on research positions so that they could come over here, get themselves trained and do the same. We try to establish collaborations with groups and individuals working in Pakistan so that they could also benefit. But I am so sorry to say that these folks are more interested in making a trip to US and Europe waste money and go back only to pay a second visit as soon as possible. I have been to several big Science meetings around the world in past 7 years, and never once did I see more than a couple of Pakistanis presenting their work in those meetings. On the other hand, you find number of Chinese and Indians. Just last year I was presenting in Keystone symposium at Banff, Alberta. Not one Scientists of Pakistani origin was there will you believe, not a single one other than me. This is where we are standing and we complaint about God knows what.

Your criticism will not help at all. Your are further discouraging people back home. Keep doing whatever you are doing. (neeki kar kuyean main daal)

What I wrote above was not for self-praising but only to show that how difficult it is made for many of us to come back and to serve our country.

Yes it is very difficult but not impossible. As far as India is concerned i personally know many who left abroad and are now contributing heaps back home. i don't think Pakistan will be an exception or your are too impatient to wait.
 
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The current US policy is

Give cash + F16 gifts , as long as the job is getting done, when there is hinderance , then use the Kerry Lugar Bill to blackmail the gov and army

This is the US policy - :undecided::azn: I don't know , them educated folks up in Congress play hard ball.

Not supporting dictators lol hahahahahahaah what about Karzai lol
man ... this is like a joke dude rigs election and then his opponents , says he does not wants to participate in elections as the elections were rigged lol they mutted his words or did not do real time translation lol on CNN. Just a quick translation summary
 
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Deleting messages toeing your own line.

You have all the traits of a self hating Pakistani.
I have no clue what you're talking about but, I'd have no qualms in shipping you out of here if you don't start talking on topic... NOW!
 
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Sir
Are these not the elites whose sons and daughters are residing and willing to do anything to reside in US.The problem is a complex one and pertains to the way we have had dual educational system. As a consequence we are generating fodder(excuse the pun and it includes myself as well) for the developed markets. The rest is who so ever is good enough follows the leaders. it is interesting that even Pseudoislamists like Zia and even Mr notso Sharif have inspite of their ranting not tackled the one problem which could have turned this country around__ the way we educate our young.
If only Bhutto had any shred of nationalism in his heart.
Araz

A very astute point there, as usual Araz bhai. But see the thing is that we're talking about the intentions as well as the actions. My point is that even normal people, and yes I do realize the vagueness of this line, should they be given the capacity will not hesitate to affiliate with the US to the point of swearing loyalty. In my view there is nothing wrong with, but I do feel its inaccurate to imply that the Pakistani populace other than the ruling elites are absolutely repulsed with the US, or that they don't have or want anything to do with it. Indulging in fashionable rhetoric is one thing, we all do it, including me. You're absolutely right about the brain-drain, we need to work on that. A very important discussion, for another perhaps time sir.
 
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Let's see for how long obama administration can stand on their words..The way zardari adminstation is working i see something will happen soon..:bounce:
 
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Before presenting your arguments can someone please tell me what was the need for H. Clinton to make such comments(Pakistan specific)?

I think the answer will help to proceed ahead.
Regards.
May be that was the reason US making such comments?
Pak generals trying to dislodge Zardari: US
Posted: Tuesday , Nov 03, 2009 at 1218 hrs

Washington: Fearing that Obama Administration wants Pakistan Army to be brought under effective civilian control, the military generals are conspiring to dislodge President Asif Ali Zardari through democratic means and political channels.

The fear, among the generals, who have ruled Pakistan for majority of years after independence is also that Zardari with his enhanced powers of presidency might appoint generals of his choice, when the Army's present top hierarchy comes up for retirement in October next year, according to a leading US intelligence think tank.

The Pakistan military, the think tank Stratfor said sees the alignment of the Obama Administration with Zardari as further undermining its position at a time when its power within the country already has weakened because of the rise of civilian forces and a raging Taliban insurgency.

Noting that both this domestic situation and pressure from Washington have placed considerable limits on the ability of the military to dislodge civilian government, Stratfor said the military was now using its influence to help align forces against the president, to force him out of office with a veneer of legality.

"The goal is thus not to unseat the current government, but to get rid of Zardari in such a way that looks like the byproduct of a constitutional process rather than of a coup -- a return to the times when the military dismissed four different governments between 1985 and 1999," Stratfor said.

Riling up the opposition against the controversial National Reconciliation Ordinance (NRO) is thus a means of forcing Zardari into a corner, it said. Stratfor said the Obama administration feels that unless the army is brought under civilian control, Washington cannot deal with the region's Taliban problem.

This is because the Pakistani security establishment draws a distinction between "good" Taliban that fight in Afghanistan and "bad" Taliban that wage war in Pakistan, it argued.

Also what has antagonised the Army is the aid package for Pakistan recently signed into law recently, which calls for civilian supremacy over the military in Pakistan, and represents a bid by Washington to work with the Zardari government to rein in the Pakistani military. Stratfor said the Pakistani military as an institution has remained deeply opposed to Zardari, though it has continued to work with him.

"This is due to the fact that the army and the Inter-Services Intelligence directorate feel no good alternative to Zardari exists capable of leading Pakistan. PML-N leader Nawaz Sharif is seen as unreliable given his past struggles with the army and his recent moves to emerge as the torchbearer for democracy," it said.

Noting that one key power of the enhanced presidency is the ability to appoint high-level army officials, the think-tank said this power will come into play when current army chief General Ashfaq Kayani retires in October 2010.

Pakistan's other four-star general, Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen Tariq Majid, is due to retire at the same time, and current ISI chief Lt Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha could retire as early as March 2010.

"The Zardari government would like to use this opportunity to appoint generals of its own choice to these top military and intelligence posts, something the armed forces deem extremely unacceptable.

The military thus would like to see Zardari's departure from office before that can happen," Stratfor said.
 
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Democracy by some famous Westerners

Some snippets of wisdom from their own mouths.
George Bernard Shaw - Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the few.
Oscar Wilde - Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people, by the people, for the people.
HL Mencken stated that Democracy is also a form of religion it is the worship of jackals by jackasses.
 
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Araz Bhai,

Who wants to leave his family, his friends, his country behind? When I left Pakistan back in 2001, I was left with not but this option. I did my MSc in Biochem with distinction, had five first author publications, three in the international Journals including Am. J. Trop. Med. Hyg (those who work in the field of parasitology, AJTMH needs no introduction) and several awards. I wanted to do PhD yet wanted to remain in Pakistan with my family and friends. I was forced to waste three years of my life shuttling between HEJ and KRL while published only one international paper. By the end of 1999, I was so frustrated that I left my PhD in the middle and joined AKU. Because of my not so bad CV, I had no problem joining AKU where within the first year, my supervisors asked me to leave Pakistan for good and do PhD abroad. I listened to them and did my PhD abroad. My Dad has recently diagnosed with a tumor in his throat, and I wanted to go back. I have over 20 publications with two highly competitive NIH research grants as a PI, and over two dozen awards. Guess what? I am not getting a position in major Pakistani Universities. Living in US, is this my choice? I know my father needs me, but my wife and two very young kids also need me. I will go to Pakistan on my heart beat, but how will I support my kids there, this is a big question. I personally know a number of Pakistanis who have shared similar stories with each other. We all think about Pakistan every day, we all miss families and friends, we all want to go back; but what next? Frustration, frustration and frustration.

We who are residing abroad do our best to represent our homeland. And those of us who are granted some opportunity by Allah, do our level best to help Pakistan and Pakistanis in every possible way. We prefer to hire Pakistani nationals on research positions so that they could come over here, get themselves trained and do the same. We try to establish collaborations with groups and individuals working in Pakistan so that they could also benefit. But I am so sorry to say that these folks are more interested in making a trip to US and Europe waste money and go back only to pay a second visit as soon as possible. I have been to several big Science meetings around the world in past 7 years, and never once did I see more than a couple of Pakistanis presenting their work in those meetings. On the other hand, you find number of Chinese and Indians. Just last year I was presenting in Keystone symposium at Banff, Alberta. Not one Scientists of Pakistani origin was there will you believe, not a single one other than me. This is where we are standing and we complaint about God knows what.

What I wrote above was not for self-praising but only to show that how difficult it is made for many of us to come back and to serve our country.
My Brother My sincere saympathies with you.Believe me We are all in the same boat..My point was not about the few like you but the majority who are the product of a system which generates people for the US and UK. Will explain later
Araz
 
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A very astute point there, as usual Araz bhai. But see the thing is that we're talking about the intentions as well as the actions. My point is that even normal people, and yes I do realize the vagueness of this line, should they be given the capacity will not hesitate to affiliate with the US to the point of swearing loyalty. In my view there is nothing wrong with, but I do feel its inaccurate to imply that the Pakistani populace other than the ruling elites are absolutely repulsed with the US, or that they don't have or want anything to do with it. Indulging in fashionable rhetoric is one thing, we all do it, including me. You're absolutely right about the brain-drain, we need to work on that. A very important discussion, for another perhaps time sir.

Please see your PM. Talk later
Araz
 
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