Featured US greenlights Turkey-made attack helicopter sale to Philippines but not for Pakistan?

[araz]

Something which they should have done 4 years back atleast. But still they wont. Keep flogging the dead horse.

Do you ever wonder why???? Is it possible that the decision makers know something you dont???? I would advise patience in this matter amongst many others.

A

 

[313ghazi]

I hope we learn a lesson and stop creaming over the thought of more F-16s. Our relationship with the US has always been transactional. Now they don't need us anymore, they're going to start screwing us over again.

Looks like 6 ton ATAK-I is gone for Pak....

However, 10 ton ATAK -II with the Ukrainian engine -1st flight in 2023 - might be the replacement....

If urgent, Pak needs to get the Chinese choppers....

It is an option for us certainly. I guess we'll have to wait and see. Any new deal would also likely take time to mature. I'm not sure about Z-10. It all depends on it it was considered unsuitable, or other competitors were considered superior products. If it has met requirements, then I see no reason why not.

Pakistan should have gone for Rooivalk II coproduction a long time ago.

THIS. We aren't always very mature in the way we do military aquisitions and certainly don't behave very ambitiously. We've seen this model work wonders with the JF-17, we should be trying it out wherever we can. When we started on the Super-7 project nobody expected export orders for it 30 years ago. Today here we are.

Why blame USA and for that matter why blame Turkey. What has Pakistan Aviation industry been doing since past 74 years ?
7 decades and Pakistan cant even produce own modern helicopter. Shame on USA ? really ?

I agree. We didn't learn the hard lessons from Pressler. They've been forgotten or palms have been greased. It seems to be our self reliance drive was limited to when foreign markets were not open to us. Post 911 and the thaw in relations with the US, we've not bought any new big ticket items to market other than missiles. It's been ticking over, but compare it to the 90's when we started working on a Tank and a Fighter jet, assembly of submarines etc.

Shall we produce our own AWACs too? Our own Jumbo jets?

Perhaps not alone, but as mentioned earlier in my thread, we've been somewhat lax in our JV's and public/private partnerships.

What does Philippines have that Pakistan doesn’t in terms of relationship with the USA?

The fact that Pakistan can play such an important role in resolution of Afghan issue didn’t stop US from not allowing the sale of these helicopters.
US decision is either punitive or indicative of repercussions. Either way one thing is sure that Pakistan is unlikely to get any more military stuff from the US. Atleast in the near future.

This is how our relationship with them has been for a long time. Whilst they need Pakistan it's good, once that need is over it's bad.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The US is in the midst of a geopolitical shift towards the Asia pacific. To the US, Pakistan is no longer useful, so the US is throwing Pakistan away once again. it was quite clear that the US for the last 20 years does not know what its doing, and is once again making the same mistakes it made in the past. It continues to be run by idiots that do more to harm American influence on global politics. The president himself has aids and advisers that have zero clue as to how the world outside of Europe and the Americas works.

Meanwhile, the Great Game continues, and global powers continue their cold wars. Meanwhile, poor countries like Pakistan end up being a casualty of these imperialist nations.

Valid point but your post carries hint of victimhood which is not needed. US policy is largey driven by various interests groups pushing and shoving with the dominant theme gaining upper hand. Could it be that one very potent interest group, the Jews and the newly emerging interest group the Indian's who have gained lot of influence in the last two decades is influencing the decision with regards to Pakistan?

I would certainly expect the new NSA Moeed Yousef to understand this very well as he was a Washington man before his appointment with Pakistan government. He will be aware of the inner workings of US policy and his insight will be extrememly valuable.

Our relationship with the US has always been transactional.

In it's finality every relationship is transactional, even between parents and children although it may be dressed in emtional feelings.

What do you think the relationship between Britain and US is? Or between Japan and US? Or between Turkey and US? Interestingly Turks are far more harsh on the Americans but still keep to be America's darlings.

The clue in all this is how much value you bring to the table. That decides your bargaining power.

 

[araz]

Point is no country (apart from Super Powers) makes everything it uses, for some products where Pakistan's requirements are small it makes very little sense to produce small batches, unless you are 100% assured of large export orders.

I understand your point of view and sympathize with it as it is a realistic one. However, at critical junctures in Pakistan's history our leadership has dealt critical blows to our development. We have had an ongoing conflict with India over Kashmir but we did not have critical industries and ammunition production in spite of knowing fully well, India would never give us Kashmir on a plate without the fight (I fully understand the haramzadgi of the Kashmiri leadership in 1965 as well and the current argument that they actually want to be rid of both Pak and India and exist as an independent leadership). We were being offered small steel production units in the 50s and opted to but US made gas guzzlers in spite of having a surplus and cash available. We were offered tank production and did not go for it, What ever was left over was systematically destroyed by that idiot ZA Bhutto and Mubasshir Hassan with their ill thought out nationalization. The list goes on and on.
A comparative analysis of Bangladesh growth patterns and Pakistani growth patterns in spite of the war in our vicinity and blatant EU support with tarriff rebate for the Bangladeshis is clear for all to see. Even if we consider our growth stunted by 50 % we should still have been a 40- 50Billion export economy with a diversified portfolio of commodities and contacts world wide.
I think we have significant issues with our perception of the world politics, corruption galore chewing away at the carcass of a dying country ridden with debt and inefficiency.
A

 

[araz]

I hope we learn a lesson and stop creaming over the thought of more F-16s. Our relationship with the US has always been transactional. Now they don't need us anymore, they're going to start screwing us over again.



It is an option for us certainly. I guess we'll have to wait and see. Any new deal would also likely take time to mature. I'm not sure about Z-10. It all depends on it it was considered unsuitable, or other competitors were considered superior products. If it has met requirements, then I see no reason why not.



THIS. We aren't always very mature in the way we do military aquisitions and certainly don't behave very ambitiously. We've seen this model work wonders with the JF-17, we should be trying it out wherever we can. When we started on the Super-7 project nobody expected export orders for it 30 years ago. Today here we are.




I agree. We didn't learn the hard lessons from Pressler. They've been forgotten or palms have been greased. It seems to be our self reliance drive was limited to when foreign markets were not open to us. Post 911 and the thaw in relations with the US, we've not bought any new big ticket items to market other than missiles. It's been ticking over, but compare it to the 90's when we started working on a Tank and a Fighter jet, assembly of submarines etc.



Perhaps not alone, but as mentioned earlier in my thread, we've been somewhat lax in our JV's and public/private partnerships.



This is how our relationship with them has been for a long time. Whilst they need Pakistan it's good, once that need is over it's bad.

I see the PAF's policy for the 16s to be a very pragmatic one. Look at how things have panned out. It has been moves and countermoves and Pakistan has not played its cards incorrectly. There seems to be a very realistic decision that 16s will only be acceptable if they come in subsidized and from The monies owed to us. Other wise it is not acceptable. This cat and mouse game has been played out since the last decade with US offering and then reneging on the issue of the FMS and asking us to fork out monies from our sovereign funds. We have walked away from these deals as it does not suit us to commit our sovereign funds and curtail other projects.
So whatever happens in the future we are not harmed by it. Our core national interests and finances are preserved and we will continue to indegenize our defence needs. Rest will be mostly subsystem procurement and only systems which we cannot produce in house and needed direly.
A

 

[_NOBODY_]

Pakistan should get it’s hand on some juicy Apache machines.

May be if you were the president of United States then this may have been possible but right now we can't even get the AH-1Zs that we ordered.

 

[KAL-EL]

May be if you were the president of United States then this may have been possible but right now we can't even get the AH-1Zs that we ordered.

Aren’t those Chinese made? If so then why would there be a delay because the relationship is very close.

 

[_NOBODY_]

Aren’t those Chinese made? If so then why would there be a delay because the relationship is very close.

I am talking about your American Bell AH-1Z Viper not Chinese Z-10.

 

[KAL-EL]

I am talking about your American Bell AH-1Z Viper not Chinese Z-10.

Ahh ok, My bad, I had them confused

 

[notorious_eagle]

You might be surprised actually. There is currently a country with a near super sonic Copter.

code name “airwolf”

That reminds me of the TV Show, Air Wolf. Good memories

 

[VCheng]

May be if you were the president of United States then this may have been possible but right now we can't even get the AH-1Zs that we ordered.

Let us not forget that as with all military sales, Pakistan needs to make the case as to how giving it more helicopters serves US national interests and how they align with Pakistan's national interests. If it does not, it will not happen.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

Can we wait for a little more time ? I am sure Turkish officials are working on American approval day and night and that is why they requested us for 6 months extension before saying us sorry once for all. Philipines finally got their approval just now so lets keep our fingers crossed for few more months. Even in the article they have mentioned Pakistan's status as 'awaiting approval' not rejected.

 

[MMM-E]

What you've seen to far are drones being used against poorly equipped and funded armed forces around the world they won't have the kind of impact against the US army they did against Armenia's.

Drones have their own limitations and they may be the future but that future is a long ways away at least until they're operated by fully autonomous self contained AI and even then that may never happen as foreign nations step up their cyber attack capabilities.

why Attack Helicopters to hunt İndian Tanks ?

Turkey’s extensive deployment of Armed Drones in its fight against Syrian Regime Forces in Idlib province has put forward a "new military doctrine" in the world

UCAVs are more effective than Attack Helicopters to hunt Tanks
An 18 AKINCI UCAV battalion can carry 288 MIZRAK anti Tank missiles, each capable of destroying a Tank



AKINCI UCAV

Payload : 1350 kg
Max speed : 360 km/h
Combat Range : 2.000+ km
Endurance : 24 hours
Service ceiling : 40.000 feet

-- AESA Radar
-- SATCOM
-- 6 multi-core Artificial Intelligence Computers

-- 8 km MIZRAK anti Tank Missile with top attack capability
-- 25 km BOZDOGAN air to air Missile
-- 74 km KUZGUN joint strike Bomb with IIR seeker




AH-64D/E APACHE

Max speed : 293 km/h
Combat Range : 480 km
Endurance : 4 hours
Service ceiling : 20.000 feet

AN/APG-78 Longbow fire-control Radar

-- APKWS 70 mm Rockets
-- 8 km HELLFIRE air to surface Missile
-- 8 km AIM-92 Stinger air to air Missile



even MANPADS can hit Attack Helicopters

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

I think Washington is also afraid of Chinese gaining the knowhow of the helis through Pakistanis where the chinese influence is very strong. It's also very strong in Phillipines but they have US military bases and people on the ground in there. Might be also one more potential reason.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Let us not forget that as with all military sales, Pakistan needs to make the case as to how giving it more helicopters serves US national interests and how they align with Pakistan's national interests. If it does not, it will not happen.

I think the interests do align. You are aware that like any country America does make mistakes. Terrorism from the af-Pak region and Balochistan is a threat to US interests as much as Pakistan. Also a more prosperous Pakistan is of far more importance to USA then Greece or Slovakia. Yet US tends to give far more weight to some third bit European country then Pakistan. This is not about interest but the endemic nature of US society which is Eurocentric. Also what benefit does Israel provide. America pays 10 times more to Israel in treasure, blood and hatred it garners then what benefits it gains.

Those helis would be of enormous benefit for damping down the the terrorists. Helicopters are actually far more effective in terms of anti-terrorist operations then the F-16s US gave to Pakistan during WOT.

Let us not forget that as with all military sales, Pakistan needs to make the case as to how giving it more helicopters serves US national interests and how they align with Pakistan's national interests. If it does not, it will not happen.

I think the interests do align. You are aware that like any country America does make mistakes. Terrorism from the af-Pak region and Balochistan is a threat to US interests as much as Pakistan. Also a more prosperous Pakistan is of far more importance to USA then Greece or Slovakia. Yet US tends to give far more weight to some third bit European country then Pakistan. This is not about interest but the endemic nature of US society which is Eurocentric. Also what benefit does Israel provide. America pays 10 times more to Israel in treasure, blood and hatred it garners then what benefits it gains.

Those helis would be of enormous benefit for damping down the the terrorists. Helicopters are actually far more effective in terms of anti-terrorist operations then the F-16s US gave to Pakistan during WOT.

I think Washington is also afraid of Chinese gaining the knowhow of the helis through Pakistanis where the chinese influence is very strong. It's also very strong in Phillipines but they have US military bases and people on the ground in there. Might be also one more potential reason.

It might be possible but are those helis that hi-tec?

why Attack Helicopters

I personally think these are needed more for anti-terrorist operations then killing Indian tanks.