US Government vs Congress: Sale of F16s to Pakistan

[Wolf]

Bravado aside, It is a tricky situation for Pakistan, one that needs to be handled with a lot of care. let's not forget that the only front-line fighter that PAF is the F-16. These airplanes still need up-gradation and spares. Yes spares can be sourced from other countries but then if this is your only front-line fighter there is peace-of-mind when you know you can get them whenever you need them.

the lollywood dialogues don't help. U.S did it's part in offering the planes, if Pak doesn't have the money, politely decline the offer. All this drama may and talk about getting it from some where else is counter productive.

Depending on the package these 8 may still be a good deal. I don't think Pakistan has the money to induct a new platform and the logistics involved. Even if Pakistan has the money, there is no option at the moment other than the Chinese.

Classic case of not letting go f16. To hell with f16, if we cant have steady supply of spare parts. Since when you will learn that cost of discontinuity of logistics is much more than cost of inducting a new platform from reliable partner with steady supply of spare parts and logistics available as in case of J 10s, J 16s.

How much does Lockheed Martin really care about missing out on 8 F-16s? They're getting paid, a lot right now and are gearing up for an increase in production of these:

The way people are talking about this F-16 saga is as if Lockheed Martin's going out of business without this deal. Save your countdown for something else, Lockheed's going to be just fine.

And you think F35 can be as successful as F16 with 3 times or may be more price as compared to F16. F16 was accessible to many countries. It won't be the case for f35. So job cuts.

 

[Quwa]

I remember when we paid $1.4bn for 18 F-16s and then began complaining about not being able to fund the JF-17 Block-I without a Chinese loan. What is it now? We'll pay $700mn for 8 F-16s and then complain about having to cut back the TRMs on the JF-17's AESA radar? If we are a poor nation, then we shouldn't be buying clipped birds from the U.S., we should be investing in our own domestic industry and capitalizing upon the cost savings of a domestically produced and supported fighter - i.e. JF-17.

 

[Dalit]

Classic case of not letting go f16. To hell with f16, if we cant have steady supply of spare parts. Since when you will learn that cost of discontinuity of logistics is much more than cost of inducting a new platform from reliable partner with steady supply of spare parts and logistics available as in case of J 10s, J 16s.


And you think F35 can be as successful as F16 with 3 times or may be more price as compared to F16. F16 was accessible to many countries. It won't be the case for f35. So job cuts.

The F-35 is a failed aircraft despite being technologically superior. Its production cost has become out of control. So much that some members of the consortium participants were seriously considering withdrawing at one stage. Even today their participation is a hotly contested issue in the domestic scene. Not to even mention how delayed the project is due to major technological hitches and problems. Still, it will take years before this fighter is even properly inducted by its intended users.

I remember when we paid $1.4bn for 18 F-16s and then began complaining about not being able to fund the JF-17 Block-I without a Chinese loan. What is it now? We'll pay $700mn for 8 F-16s and then complain about having to cut back the TRMs on the JF-17's AESA radar? If we are a poor nation, then we shouldn't be buying clipped birds from the U.S., we should be investing in our own domestic industry and capitalizing upon the cost savings of a domestically produced and supported fighter - i.e. JF-17.

Very well said and that is exactly my point. It seems we're focused on too many things at once. Although, the Americans have a habit of throwing in such deals at critical times. Top priority should be JF-17. The F-16 doesn't even figure in any of this. The F-16 has just come out of the blue after the Obama proposal. It is a major distraction and we don't need it.

 

[Quwa]

If there were no restrictions on weapon systems (e.g. AIM-9X and JSOW), upgrades (e.g. SABR AESA radar), etc, then the F-16s are a superb, absolutely superb option. They would easily drive our qualitative capacity up, and would long remain the standard to reach for decades to come. Unfortunately, we have restrictions at one too many levels when it comes to upgrading and equipping our F-16s at will. Last I checked, it was the JF-17 Block-III that has an AESA radar in the pipeline, not the F-16. It is the JF-17 that will assuredly get a HOBS AAM of some kind, not the F-16 (even though the AIM-9X has been sold to a number of countries since we ordered the F-16C/D). And so on.

 

[Wolf]

The F-35 is a failed aircraft despite being technologically superior. Its production cost has become out of control. So much that some members of the consortium participants were seriously considering withdrawing at one stage. Even today their participation is a hotly contested issue in the domestic scene. Not to even mention how delayed the project is due to major technological hitches and problems. Still, it will take years before this fighter is even properly inducted by its intended users.



Very well said and that is exactly my point. It seems we're focused on too many things at once. Although, the Americans have a habit of throwing in such deals at critical times. Top priority should be JF-17. The F-16 doesn't even figure in any of this. The F-16 has just come out of the blue after the Obama proposal. It is a major distraction and we don't need it.

From here onwards future of PAF is JF 17 and it's advanced blocks to be further translated into two indigenous fighters with medium and heavy combat category incorporating stealth and latest avionics. Regards

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Right on the money. Investing in the F-16s is tantamount to signing your own death warrant. The Americans needed Pakistan during the Cold War and hence provided the F-16s back then. Even during that time they were highly reluctant. Although, back then, the acquisition of F-16 made sense. Today, the acquisition of F-16 is foolhardy. It is an investment with only negative returns.

Some of us here are under the illusion that papa Yank is an ally. Well, papa Yank is far from being an ally. It doesn't take Nostradamus to predict this. The writing is on the wall and has been for a very long time. Unfortunately, we don't have honest and patriotic leaders who would understand such a thing because they only care about their short-term gains if you can even call it that. Political leadership in Pakistan is all about survival and stealing from the poor. The leadership doesn't care about the well-being and interests of the nation.

Oh, and another important thing. It wouldn't take a Trump for a rude awakening. Mark my words. Hillary would be an even bigger problem for Pakistan.

It is very simple, the U.S. does not want a war between Pakistan and India,
and is not going to support an arnament race with this goal.
They apparently see Pakistan as the aggressor here.
They will support efforts to suppress the Taliban.
Don't expect anything else.

 

[Dalit]

It is very simple, the U.S. does not want a war between Pakistan and India,
and is not going to support an arnament race with this goal.
They apparently see Pakistan as the aggressor here.
They will support efforts to suppress the Taliban.
Don't expect anything else.

LOL the Americans don't want war between Pakistan and India? The Americans have committed the ultimate cardinal sin by providing cutting edge nuclear tech which the Indians undoubtedly will use for military application. Not to even mention the countless advanced military hardware it is blatantly providing to India.

That is not what you term as working for peace. On the contrary, it is fueling an arms race and the Americans are fully responsible for any devastating outcome. Be rest assured.

There is no bigger aggressor and occupier than America I'm afraid. I don't even have to explain this. The countless failed wars and occupations speak volume.

The Americans are angry at everything and everyone. From Mexicans to Muslims. They need scapegoats for their failures and anger.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

And who is going to provide spareparts for them once sanctions come up, you?
The point you and people like you fail to understand is that its not the capability of the Jet we question, its rather the duplicity of the supplier who at any point in time can choke the life out of these machines and make no mistake about it, sooner or latter we Pakistanis are up for a rude awakening more so if the likes of Trump make it to the white house.

The issue is not just sanctions because PAF was able to keep their F-16 in the Air during the 90's.

One must also look from the angle of the US.
1) US economy is at rock bottom.
2) US Tax payers are loosing tax benefits.
3) Job in the US have hit rock bottom.
4) Experiences have increased.
5) Ordinary tax payers are getting involved in home and International Politics which was once out of question.
6) Agitation among different class of people is growing.
7) More and more Military equipment is being bought by the local police which is a big cause of concern. When people ask explanation they are given a very patriotic answer "we do not leave behind our dead and equipment".

Trump of who ever is going to win must make sure that his country men are provided their basic need for this He \ She is going to go to whichever length it may take.

They have to secure the Homeland
1) To do the in the safest way is to reduce the number of migrants that enter.
2) Make arrangements to monitor activities of those who they think can cause trouble.

 

[Skyliner]

A No with a smiling face
We are paying a big amount in billions to IMF this year so no way 750mill $ would be spared for these AF SOLA even if the decision makers are dying to get them ... That Us attitude is only because of our totally reliance on f16 so let's move on with the other options and give UNCLE SAM the time to get normal!

 

[Sage]

You are living in a fools paradise. First, let's get your facts right. The Obama administration is the one which proposed the F-16 deal. Yes, Pakistan has previously asked for F-16s, but in this instance the offer directly came from the Obama administration. The Obama administration has even clarified this proposal to win or rather bribe the support of Pakistan in the failed war in Afghanistan. This is an established fact. The original subsidized Obama deal changed as soon as the congress stepped in. Therefore, expecting Pakistan to pay the entire sum is simply put garbage and atrocious.

Tricky situation? You make it sound like as if F-16 is the only fighter on the planet available to PAF. You need a reality check. Sooner or later the PAF is going to have replace its aging fleet. The induction argument doesn't hold at all. The PAF is going to have to deal with this fact anyway. Whether the PAF starts this process incrementally at this stage doesn't really matter.

Just because the Indians are in denial regarding the Russian option doesn't mean that this really is the case. Contrary to Indian disbelief, Pakistan has held talks with Russian counterparts. This has been confirmed by various credible sources. We don't know where the talks are at the moment, but we cannot rule out anything. Then, of course we have other Chinese alternatives which easily surpass the F-16. In other words, the F-16 is a highly sanction prone fighter with no dividends for the PAF. It made sense during the Cold War, but today it is a liability.

Pakistan isn't going to pay 700 million dollars for 8 F-16s and some spares. Pakistan has much much better options for that kind of money. This deal might be good for you, but for Pakistan it is not done. Pakistan has rightfully protested the change of the initial terms of conditions. The Americans can set all the conditions they like. We're not going to buy this aircraft without any subsidizing. Period. We can live without the F-16.

What is that much much better option than F-16s ?

 

[airmarshal]

Too many sentimental comments here.

I think Congress decision has more to do with domestic American politics as well. Republicans control the House and they want to embarrass Obama all the time. Not this issue, every other minuscule issue, Republican controlled Congress is aggressive against Obama.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

All your arguments on F16 being prone to sanction is correct, but everything Pakistan has purchased from abroad is prone to sanctions. Why single out the US product? The US product, and for that matter all their products, work as designed and to expectations. This cannot be said for kit from other countries. Pakistan is so deeply vested into the F16 program that there are no easy ways out. It is golden and hot handcuffs.

 

[mingle]

Pakistan is in Talks with Poland and Netherlands for F16s already ...................

Poland jets r very new Dutch r very old with lot hrs plus Maritime use .

 

[Viper 94]

Let india waste money on buying expensive military hardware.
We should invest this money on education and improve our domestic industries so we don't have to ask anyone to subsidize any purchases

 

[Genghis khan1]

Israel is paying $110 million for F-35A while Pakistan is paying almost $90 million for a F-16.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...lear-weapons-if-no-f16s.429197/#ixzz47dlqfao7