US Drone Strikes In Pakistan

[hasang20]

lets have some F-16s and Mirage on the sky and shot them before they even cross the border

 

[Prodigy17]

lets have some F-16s and Mirage on the sky and shot them before they even cross the border

I don't think they can be taken out with Mirage and F-16s ( we can ask some air expert to give us his opinion ) because these drones fly very high altitude. I got a better idea, if US can evoke self defense clause of UN charter to attack us why cant we go after the bases from where these drones are launched from Af-tan, i mean the base stations. Just one missile strike by us which we are much capable of, on the base housing these drones or to make it mild, around the base would be sufficient to convey the message.

 

[RabzonKhan]

If deterrent doesn't work then as last resort we dont lack the will to use these weapons, so IF WE GO DOWN, WE GO DOWN HONOURABLY AND WE TAKE MANY MORE WITH "US"

Please tell me you were joking.

 

[Always Neutral]

Ha Ha. Are you serious or delusional ? How will you buy food, petrol, arms etc if the US walks out. Worse you will have Mr Red Mosque sitting in Islambabad with his friends and the PA will not have the resources to fight them.[/I]

Can they afford a war with nuclear armed Pakistan or can they afford to 'take out' our nuclear assets.

They can but can Pakistan ? Are you planning to bomb Washington ?

just see how one warning by the military that any physical incursion will be retaliated by fire has resulted in no more nonsense.

Its not stopped USA firing a missile and killing 29 people as of yesterday ?

We can stop their logistic support and tell all tribesmen including those whom we are fighting that we will sort out our issues latter lets first teach these ignorant ppl a lesson.

Yes you can but that is the luxuary of a strong and rich nation or a defunct organisation like the Taliban. Pakistan just cannot afford it at this moment.

I mean, this is outrageous and ridiculous. Also see that it is US who needs us and we should be the ones periodically sending out demand lists but amazingly when our economy is in ruins, US is of no use to us.

The US needs you as much as you need them. The Pakistani taliban taking over pakistan will lead to ist balkanisation just like erstwhile Afghanistan. Please don't be shortsighted and wish bad for your country

Granted that it has become our own war for numerous reasons but does that justify such attacks ??? This war we should fight on our own terms and it should be the US who should be running around after us but unfortunately it is vice versa.

Off course you should fight it at your terms but to be able to dictate your terms you have to have a robust international economy not US aid centric.
Believe you me, in today's situation of america, they cant afford a venture against us let alone a full scale war in this region which american generals are smart enough to understand will be a two front war with one front facing us and formidable Taliban opponents at their back.

No one wants to invade fight or destroy Pakistan. The PA has very good Generals and they see the Taliban as a bigger threat than US Army. They have nearly captured Bajaur and soon should capture the other areas. Please donot demean their efforts by raving and ranting.

Now, some may also say that america can utilize its new ally india against us but then what for we have been preparing since last 60 years and why we have acquired nuclear technology. If deterrent doesn't work then as last resort we dont lack the will to use these weapons, so IF WE GO DOWN, WE GO DOWN HONOURABLY AND WE TAKE MANY MORE WITH "US" B]

WHAT IS SO HONOROBLE IN DESTROYING YOUR OWN COUNTRY, PEOPLE AND ALSO KILLING MORE INNOCENT PEOPLE IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD WHEN U STILL WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BOMB THE US ?

 

[third eye]

A truly insperational quote from one of Mr. Alama Iqbal's many contributions to Pakistan.

... and relevant across the world both in public & private affairs.

 

[RabzonKhan]

I could not agree more.


All Maula Jatt’s please read this.


Second Editorial: Converting passion into foreign policy reason

The Additional Secretary of the. Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Syed Hasan Javed, told a seminar held by Karachi’s Area Study Centre for Europe on Saturday that “we have to convert our abundance of emotionalism into intellectual capital” in order to have a rational foreign policy. He has put his finger on the strange process going on in Pakistan of creating policy in the streets of Pakistan and on the TV channels. For example, laymen on the streets are inclined to advise new foreign policy direction, mostly based on military action against states several times stronger in war capacity than Pakistan. Politicians and “men of opinion” also appear on the channels advising volte face in traditional policy postures to save the “ghairat” (honour) of Pakistan from being degraded.

While it is true that foreign policy must reflect the way people feel, foreign policy formulation is always left to specialists of the state. Foreign policy is often not the subject on which people in the advanced world fight in the streets. In Pakistan, however, people who admit knowing little about the economy often claim expertise in their understanding of world affairs and insist that their “forceful” solutions be followed. Because foreign policy is the domain where no real legal norms exist and the only principle that works is avoidance of isolation and promotion of national self-interest, it is often not possible to act on the rash advice of those who wax emotional about the “immorality” of world politics. So it is definitely time to intellectualise and “pragmatise” our thinking on foreign policy. *

 

[RescueRanger]

I could not agree more.


All Maula Jatt’s please read this.


Second Editorial: Converting passion into foreign policy reason

The Additional Secretary of the. Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Syed Hasan Javed, told a seminar held by Karachi’s Area Study Centre for Europe on Saturday that “we have to convert our abundance of emotionalism into intellectual capital” in order to have a rational foreign policy. He has put his finger on the strange process going on in Pakistan of creating policy in the streets of Pakistan and on the TV channels. For example, laymen on the streets are inclined to advise new foreign policy direction, mostly based on military action against states several times stronger in war capacity than Pakistan. Politicians and “men of opinion” also appear on the channels advising volte face in traditional policy postures to save the “ghairat” (honour) of Pakistan from being degraded.

While it is true that foreign policy must reflect the way people feel, foreign policy formulation is always left to specialists of the state. Foreign policy is often not the subject on which people in the advanced world fight in the streets. In Pakistan, however, people who admit knowing little about the economy often claim expertise in their understanding of world affairs and insist that their “forceful” solutions be followed. Because foreign policy is the domain where no real legal norms exist and the only principle that works is avoidance of isolation and promotion of national self-interest, it is often not possible to act on the rash advice of those who wax emotional about the “immorality” of world politics. So it is definitely time to intellectualise and “pragmatise” our thinking on foreign policy. *

Very good observation and well presented.

Thnks

 

[Prodigy17]

LOL! good one from Rabzon. But trust me, i'm no Maula jat or Sultan Rahi. First and foremost thing is that we have become so numb by these brazen violations by US that the condemnation of these attacks as u can feel is on the decline as they have become a matter of routine for us and secondly as you would see all diplomatic protests and denounciations at the even the highest level have yielded no result. This clearly proves that status quo is not the answer to this problem. So looking for a change of tactic is what i'm aiming for here on this discussion thread. Those who oppose my idea are welcome to do so but then they should spell out what is the solution in their view ???? Status quo, which means tolerating this nonsense despite the heroics of gallant soldiers in Bajuar and Swat ( mind you these missile strikes are hurting our standing in the comity of nations ) or the change of tactics. Clearly, latter option is what our 'foreign policy specialists' should be looking for. Frankly Rabzon, they seem to be sleeping over it.

Now, so many of you have talked about the need for having a strong economy to which i entirely agree. But how do we hope to have a strong economy sometime in near future with a lethal combination of US manipulated IMF helping our economy under the oversight of US cronies in the government. We heard the same thing back in 2001 that we need to build our economy to be independent and to have weight in international arena, after 7-8 years of wait, where do we stand ???? Now, we are again waiting for economy to grow strong under US control so that they can take the wind out of the sail when they want, frankly where it is leading us ??

The crux of whole argument is that i'm not propagating a war with US or a radical shift in policy instead i'm looking at exploiting a realistic and fleeting opportunity of an economically weak, militarily exhuasted and divided US to serve our intersest by showing a little belligerence. US will never fight a war with Pakistan in which case it will not only be the armed forces but entire 160 million population that it will have to fight with. If it were in a position to start war, rest assured Iran is their priority number one. All, i'm saying is that we have to raise the bar to get our demands from a position of strength as a partner not as some colony taken for granted. Remember, when Zia refused paltry US aid proposal for Afghan war dismissing it as " Peanuts", surely next time around, Reagen came up with a lucrative deal.
So if anyone of you have better proposal regarding how Pakistan should get these strikes ceased and get better deal from US, feel free to post.

 

[S-2]

"The crux of whole argument is that i'm not propagating a war with US or a radical shift in policy instead i'm looking at exploiting a realistic and fleeting opportunity of an economically weak, militarily exhuasted and divided US to serve our intersest by showing a little belligerence."

I'm sorry but just how will this perceived economically weak and militarily exhausted U.S. serve your interests again? Your rant has me a tad confused.

Do you wish to give us the ol' "what for" upside the head because we're your #1 trade partner- in spades and by far? I don't recall the large list of American goods being purchased by your nation so I can only presume that we've achieved such exalted status by virtue of that which we buy from you. Maybe that's important, maybe not.

Explain "belligerence" please? This deserves elaboration, don't you agree? You don't know squat about who's killed in these PREDATOR raids or from where they're launched. You're not there and nobody else on this board is either.

This issue of sovereignty is interesting. Americans face this daily along the Iraqi-Turkish border because of PKK activities against Turkey which eminate from KRG (Kurdish Regional Gov't) soil. Neither the Iraqi Army, Peshmerga, nor the U.S. Army (together or separately) have chosen to confront the PKK yet don't resist the periodic incursions of large forces as demanded by an outraged Turkish citizenry. The U.S. Army even helps by establishing a joint-intell cell and facilitating conflict resolution between the affected parties.

We'll see what happens with Kiyani and Petraeus chit-chatting here but I'm guessing that PREDATOR has never been more effective nor will be ceasing operations anytime soon- from wherever it launches...

 

[RescueRanger]

"The crux of whole argument is that i'm not propagating a war with US or a radical shift in policy instead i'm looking at exploiting a realistic and fleeting opportunity of an economically weak, militarily exhuasted and divided US to serve our intersest by showing a little belligerence."

I'm sorry but just how will this perceived economically weak and militarily exhausted U.S. serve your interests again? Your rant has me a tad confused.

Do you wish to give us the ol' "what for" upside the head because we're your #1 trade partner- in spades and by far? I don't recall the large list of American goods being purchased by your nation so I can only presume that we've achieved such exalted status by virtue of that which we buy from you. Maybe that's important, maybe not.

Explain "belligerence" please? This deserves elaboration, don't you agree? You don't know squat about who's killed in these PREDATOR raids or from where they're launched. You're not there and nobody else on this board is either.

This issue of sovereignty is interesting. Americans face this daily along the Iraqi-Turkish border because of PKK activities against Turkey which eminate from KRG (Kurdish Regional Gov't) soil. Neither the Iraqi Army, Peshmerga, nor the U.S. Army (together or separately) have chosen to confront the PKK yet don't resist the periodic incursions of large forces as demanded by an outraged Turkish citizenry. The U.S. Army even helps by establishing a joint-intell cell and facilitating conflict resolution between the affected parties.

We'll see what happens with Kiyani and Petraeus chit-chatting here but I'm guessing that PREDATOR has never been more effective nor will be ceasing operations anytime soon- from wherever it launches...

its not your fault, you were born in the land that brought us "TEAM AMERICA", keep policing the world eventually you will be consumed by your own folly!

Who is killed in these attacks? You want to see pictures of the innards’ of children and innocent women splashed about on the hot baking sands? Here you are the “Righteous” lecturing us on how we should understand our own affairs?

Also you mention that how can the states aid us? Well it’s a two way relationship my friend, there is no such thing as a free meal in this world. So go on deluding yourself just like your government, the path you all are headed down it will all implode anyway.

 

[S-2]

"its not your fault, you were born in the land that brought us "TEAM AMERICA", keep policing the world eventually you will be consumed by your own folly!"

Your anger is clear. Your point less so. Is this a rant too? It appears like one- lacking coherance primarily. As to "folly", will that be before or after the accumulated self-inflicted wounds by Pakistan rendered upon itself lay mortal claim?

"Who is killed in these attacks? You want to see pictures of the innards’ of children and innocent women splashed about on the hot baking sands?"

Start with the pictures of the targets. I'd like to think, though, that any self-respecting family man would fight to prevent the taliban and al Qaeda from seeking refuge in his home. Sadly, that's often not the case even though most of these homes have personal weapons but maybe it's different along the border. I know mistakes happen. So do patriotic Pakistanis who've read or witnessed the P.A.'s use of heavy weapons and bombing strikes in Bajaur. These are in residential areas where your enemy and ours persists in locating himself- for obvious reasons- one of which includes your presumed squeamishness. The lists of those eliminated recently by PREDATOR though seems to validate the efficacy of these targets, wouldn't you agree?

We must be improving.

"Here you are the “Righteous” lecturing us on how we should understand our own affairs?"

Do you mean me personally, or my government, or just- you know, all us gun-tottin', cowboy-hatted numbskulls on this side of the pond? Of which lecture were you referring? There are so many. Btw, do you have a lock on knowledge? You seem the "lecturing" sort yourself.

"Also you mention that how can the states aid us? Well it’s a two way relationship my friend, there is no such thing as a free meal in this world."

No kidding? Well, if it's two-way, when are you going to begin buying some of our products? We're your #1 trade partner and doing the vast bulk of that in purchases. Please explain as there's a suspiciously aggrieved and sanctimonious tone to your comment?

"So go on deluding yourself just like your government, the path you all are headed down it will all implode anyway."

Ah, but you've got the answers, eh? Well that does solve my earlier question about "knowledge". The evidence is scattered all around us.

 

[Prodigy17]

I'm sorry but just how will this perceived economically weak and militarily exhausted U.S. serve your interests again? Your rant has me a tad confused.

The sentence quoted by you is incomplete, the whole sentence once read carefully will convey the sense. As far as your point of weakness serving our interest is concerned, may i clarify that a) we would like to fight this war on our own terms based on sensitivity of our local populace and not tolerate this nonsense which if occassionally kills terrorists mostly kills civilians. You either don't know or dont care ( i believe the former personally knowing americans ) what our multifarious local and regional sensitivities are and lack ground knowledge of the area with the only source being the handful of CIA hawks. b) We don't need this nonsense of flipping support that every other day some senator gets up and starts talking against delivery of military hardware or funds for the war, we want unequivocal and across the board support if u want our support c) Our bad security and economic conditions are directly or indirectly attributed to this war and america so when we are in trouble i can't see the US being very forthright in its support and pushing us to IMF is part of the plan to keep us in check. Now, it may be ur interest to keep us that way but not ours so what i mean by that sentence is that we don't need peanuts in return for so much being done on ground already, yet you being impatient enough to go on your own.

Do you wish to give us the ol' "what for" upside the head because we're your #1 trade partner- in spades and by far? I don't recall the large list of American goods being purchased by your nation so I can only presume that we've achieved such exalted status by virtue of that which we buy from you. Maybe that's important, maybe not.

First quote a source. Second, does that give you the right to dictate us and go for unilateral strikes. What about the 80s and 90s, when you put us under sanctions after getting over with afghan war, we survived and we did go nuclear without your support. No favors here....

Explain "belligerence" please? This deserves elaboration, don't you agree? You don't know squat about who's killed in these PREDATOR raids or from where they're launched. You're not there and nobody else on this board is either.

Yeah, but i did explain it in one of my previous posts. In short, by drawing lines which are not to be crossed or you risk alienating yourself. Don't teach me Mr. Predator operator from Tampa Bay Fl, whether i know or not is irrelevant here what is relevant here is that those at higher echelones should be knowing and if they don't, there are numerous other ways to convey the point.

This issue of sovereignty is interesting. Americans face this daily along the Iraqi-Turkish border because of PKK activities against Turkey which eminate from KRG (Kurdish Regional Gov't) soil. Neither the Iraqi Army, Peshmerga, nor the U.S. Army (together or separately) have chosen to confront the PKK yet don't resist the periodic incursions of large forces as demanded by an outraged Turkish citizenry. The U.S. Army even helps by establishing a joint-intell cell and facilitating conflict resolution between the affected parties.

Wow, interesting....that says it all and confirms my observation in the above para that you don't know the sensitivities of other countries and people. I guess Team America reference is partially correct here. Are you suggesting that we go after Afghan army and NATO after these strikes ???? Your point doesn't make any sense

PREDATOR has never been more effective nor will be ceasing operations anytime soon- from wherever it launches...

Yeah, it is so hard to guess.......

Your anger is clear. Your point less so. Is this a rant too? It appears like one- lacking coherance primarily. As to "folly", will that be before or after the accumulated self-inflicted wounds by Pakistan rendered upon itself lay mortal claim?

Like they say, " Ignorance is blessing"...dont worry sunshine, your Gorbachef is also coming. How ironic, we were there when Soviet Union collapsed and then we are also part of the plot for your inevitable demise. We are like a magnet but a fatal one for that matter....

I'd like to think, though, that any self-respecting family man would fight to prevent the taliban and al Qaeda from seeking refuge in his home. Sadly, that's often not the case even though most of these homes have personal weapons but maybe it's different along the border. I know mistakes happen. So do patriotic Pakistanis who've read or witnessed the P.A.'s use of heavy weapons and bombing strikes in Bajaur.

Only serves to show your ignorance of the tribal customs and traditions It also proves that our masses support and can tolerate collateral damage at the hands of own military and not unilateral strikes by US so why dont u give PA the tech and support to do the job.

 

[S-2]

"...the whole sentence once read carefully will convey the sense."

Said with certainty. Left out "divided". Silly me. Doesn't help the clarity one bit.

"First quote a source."

O.K.

WTO Trade Profiles

Data is for 2007. Only E.U. exceeds U.S. Next closest country is the U.A.E. I can offer C.I.A. statistics too. They show a slightly smaller margin between the U.S. and the U.A.E.

"Second, does that give you the right to dictate us and go for unilateral strikes."

Get a grip. Your leaders and ours talk every day. If they're being "dictated", then elect stronger leaders or pull out the ol' standby and have another coup. Kiyani and Petraeus are likely speaking as we write. We do what we must and have needed to for some time. Let's hope more of the same isn't as necessary as time marches on.

"What about the 80s and 90s, when you put us under sanctions after getting over with afghan war, we survived and we did go nuclear without your support. No favors here...."

Congratulations...and you're still doing just peachy.

"In short, by drawing lines which are not to be crossed or you risk alienating yourself."

We understand you so much better than you think. America is under no illusion that you're our friends. As such, we risk nothing by your "alienation". That's long since largely occurred among the rank n' file for a variety of reasons that we do and don't have much control over. It won't keep us out of Afghanistan. It won't likely stop PREDATOR. It likely won't stop supplies. If so, we've other options which are sustainable.

"Are you suggesting that we go after Afghan army and NATO after these strikes ???? Your point doesn't make any sense"

No. Sorry for the confusion. I really am. I wasn't suggesting that you attack NATO and the Afghan army at all. I was suggesting that you put up with PREDATOR as long as necessary.

Hope that helps clarify things.

"It also proves that our masses support and can tolerate collateral damage at the hands of own military and not unilateral strikes by US so why dont u give PA the tech and support to do the job."

Counter-intuitive and renders your WHOLE point as an exercise in duplicity. It's not about dead babies. It's all about who's tossing the ordnance around. Guess that would make you "TEAM PAKISTAN".

Funny enough, given the chance to go "softly, softly" both the Brits and you have found an enemy that's not listening. So now you're tossing the big stuff with some interesting collateral effects now and again. People in glass houses shouldn't toss bombs maybe? In any case, you haven't impressed me with your simple love of life.

Nope. It's my mighty suspicion that some real good stuff was shared following the Kabul bombing. Odd and dramatic events began to occur. ISI changeover. Key generals passed over. Active combat operations in Bajaur. Something was said that proved very compelling to your leaders-either out on the U.S.S. Roosevelt or in Washington D.C.

 

[fatman17]

there u go guys its a done deal......so chill!

A Quiet Deal With Pakistan

By David Ignatius

Tuesday, November 4, 2008; Page A17

Pakistan is publicly complaining about U.S. airstrikes. But the country's new chief of intelligence, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, visited Washington last week for talks with America's top military and spy chiefs, and everyone seemed to come away smiling.

They could pat themselves on the back, for starters, for the assassination of Khalid Habib, al-Qaeda's deputy chief of operations. According to Pakistani officials, he was killed on Oct. 16 by a Predator strike in the Pakistani tribal area of South Waziristan. Habib, reckoned by some to be the No. 4 leader in al-Qaeda, was involved in recruiting operatives for future terrorist attacks against the United States.

The hit on Habib attests to the growing cooperation -- in secret -- between the United States and Pakistan in the high-stakes war along Pakistan's border with Afghanistan, which U.S. intelligence officials regard as the crucial front in the war on terrorism.

The CIA had been gunning for Habib for several years, including a January 2006 Predator attack that produced false reports that he had been killed. The agency has needed better human intelligence on the ground, and improved liaison with Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, may help.


Behind the stepped-up Predator missions in recent weeks is a secret understanding between the United States and Pakistan about the use of these drones. Given Pakistani sensitivities about American meddling, this accord has been shielded in the deniable world of intelligence activities. Officially, the Pakistanis oppose any violation of their airspace, and the Pakistani defense minister issued a public protest yesterday about the Predator raids. But that's not the whole story.

The secret accord was set after the September visit to Washington by Pakistan's new president, Asif Ali Zardari. It provided new mechanics for coordination of Predator attacks and a jointly approved list of high-value targets. Behind the agreement was a recognition by the Zardari government, and by Pakistan's new military chief, Gen. Ashfaq Kiyani, that the imminent threat to Pakistan's security comes from Islamic terrorists rather than from arch-rival India.

The approved target list includes, in addition to al-Qaeda operatives, some Afghan warlords who were once sheltered by the ISI, including Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, the Haqqani family network and Taliban leader Mohammad Omar. Also on the target list is Baitullah Mehsud, often described as the leader of the Pakistani Taliban.

The ground war in the tribal areas is the Pakistanis' responsibility, and they report some recent success. The most aggressive campaign has been in the district of Bajaur, just east of the Afghan province of Kunar. In August, the Pakistani military began attacking al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters there. When troops were stymied by a network of tunnels, the Pakistanis called in their own air attacks.

Tribal leaders in Bajaur, angered by the fighting, began turning against the militants, according to Pakistani officials. The Pakistanis claim similar success in mobilizing local tribes in the border districts of Dir and Kurram. Next, they say, they plan to take the ground war into North and South Waziristan, where al-Qaeda has its most important refuges.

A confidential Pakistani military report on the recent fighting in Bajaur and neighboring provinces counted 1,140 insurgents killed or wounded and 197 captured. Civilian casualties totaled 848 killed or wounded, plus 400,000 refugees.

The United States is quietly helping by sending at least 25 Special Forces soldiers to train Pakistan's Frontier Corps. But the Americans, recognizing public sensitivity to foreign interference, are keeping a low profile.

What's different on the Pakistani side isn't just the secret cooperation with America. There was lots of that under the previous president, Pervez Musharraf. What's new is that Zardari and Kiyani are working openly to build popular support for their operations against the Muslim militants. An example was testimony on the terrorism threat last month to a secret session of the Pakistani parliament by Pasha, the new ISI chief, which was widely reported.

And Kiyani seems determined to stop Musharraf's practice of using the ISI to maintain contact with the Afghan warlords. He has cleaned house by appointing new heads for the service's four main directorates, in addition to the new chief.

U.S. military and intelligence chiefs applaud Pakistan's cooperation. But they're still nervous. The U.S.-Pakistan relationship hangs by a slender thread; Pakistani pride sometimes prevents officials from taking full advantage of the relationship, and America's embrace has sometimes been politically fatal for pro-American leaders, such as Musharraf.

And it's an inherently unstable arrangement: Pakistan's leaders publicly decry U.S. attacks, and the United States, with a wink and a nudge to its ally, keeps on attacking.

The writer is co-host ofPostGlobal, an online discussion of international issues. His e-mail address isdavidignatius@washpost.com.

 

[Always Neutral]

Time to re-evaluate war on terror.

And the do what ? The people killed were damaging Pakistan and have no allegiance to Pakistan so you should be happy someone else is doing your dirty job.

Regards