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US carried out madrasah bombing

http://www.hal-india.com/su-30-mki.asp
This is with reference to various reports that appeared in a section of Press over Sukhoi (Su-30 MKI) production. The reports, quoting a Russian newspaper, are completely incorrect.

It is hereby clarified that the production of Su-30 MKI aircraft continues in HAL. Total technology is getting established in HAL as planned. In order to complete the programme by 2015 instead of 2018, as required by the Indian Air Force, certain components and systems are being procured from Russia. This decision was taken to optimize the investments in HAL.

The programme of indigenous production of Su-30 MKI aircraft in HAL is continuing at an accelerated pace as compared to earlier plan
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My point was with regards to the challenges with assembly in India, same sort of issues could crop up with a LM assembly line pushing things out further or making others averse to sending their own aircraft to India for overhaul as was being suggested earlier.


US weaponry will bolster the Indian military but certainly not form the mainstay of it. India's imports will be similar to Pakistan's who relies on China primarily. India relies on Russia and Israel mainly. US arms exports to India will be high-end force-multiplier type not the mainstay of the forces.

Being a democracy India doesn't have to toe the US line. The left who's support is crucial for the present govt. will make sure we aren't overly dependant on the US for anything.
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Well what do you think happens to a compliment of 125-200 aircraft of US origin when subjected to sanctions? That is a HUGE chunk of your airforce and if that capability is not your mainstay then you gotta have an airforce with more than a thousand combat aircraft to not feel their being grounded.

India was a democracy when it buckled under US pressure and sided against Iran even though bilaterally India has excellent relations with Iran...India's left is like Pakistan's religious right...they are against US hegemony and expansion and meddling, but in the end, its the ruling goverment that makes the call....the way the BJP and now Congress is embracing the US, does have some implications...(I am not saying that India should stay away from the US, simply pointing out that when you deal with the US, you will give up some of your geo-political flexibility).
 
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Hey guys this thread isnt abt india.So discuss this elsewhere please.
Now coming bact to topic.No matter who bombed that madrassa one thing is clear.That place was being used as a training ground for terrorists and it had to go one way or the other. trouble is terrorists in pakistan have an easy way of escaping the authorities. Go to kashmir (pakistani side) and they automatically become freedom fighters.Now they can get full help to cross over.
 
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Hey guys this thread isnt abt india.So discuss this elsewhere please.
Now coming bact to topic.No matter who bombed that madrassa one thing is clear.That place was being used as a training ground for terrorists and it had to go one way or the other. trouble is terrorists in pakistan have an easy way of escaping the authorities. Go to kashmir (pakistani side) and they automatically become freedom fighters.Now they can get full help to cross over.

Lets not mix things up now. The folks in FATA are not the same people who have faught against the Indian occupation in Kashmir. The people in FATA include a lot of outsiders like Arabs, Chechens, Turkmen etc. Leftover from the Afghan jihad and the Taliban days. Their own countries do not want them back so they live in the FATA and wage influence over the locals. The vast majority of people fighting in Kashmir include local Kashmiris and then their supporters from mainland Pakistan. Their struggle predates the FATA issue by far and will go on even if OBL and his cronies are killed or captured simply because its a legitimate struggle for self determination.

And you are being less than honest when you say "Now they can get full help to cross over." There is no or very little assistance (if any) for people fighting in Kashmir. There is nothing going on across the LoC any more and even then you guys label it as help to cross over....maybe its time to look inward and figure out that Kashmiris may not want you guys around.....in the good old days, the charge used to be that under Artillery cover, outsiders are sent across....well there is no way that Pakistan could sustain that kind of operation now, but even then the liberation movement goes on...I think there is considerable local support and by blaming outside intervention, you guys as usual want to downplay the strong local desire to get away from India.
 
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Pakistan has been saying this all along.That there is no CBT.BUT THEN U GUYS ALSO CLAIMED THERE WERE NO PAKISTANI ARMY MEN INVOLVED IN THE kARGIL WAR FOR LIKE 6 YEARS before u'r president acknowledged that kargil was planned by the PA in his book. So he was clearly lying b4. And he's lying now abt absence of cross border terrorism.
 
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Pakistan has been saying this all along.That there is no CBT.BUT THEN U GUYS ALSO CLAIMED THERE WERE NO PAKISTANI ARMY MEN INVOLVED IN THE kARGIL WAR FOR LIKE 6 YEARS before u'r president acknowledged that kargil was planned by the PA in his book. So he was clearly lying b4. And he's lying now abt absence of cross border terrorism.

Yes and you guys are the ever-angellic Indians who never lie, deceive, go back on your word. Give me a break please! You guys laid the foundation of a dishonest relationship between the two countries by going back on your word about the Kashmir plebescite. So please lets not go off crying about Kargil as a big stab in the back....how about Indian intervention in East Pakistan? We crossed the LoC during the Kargil crises and you guys cry about not respecting the "sanctity" of it....in 1971, you guys invaded an "Independent" country by crossing over the IB...so don't play innocent here....where was the sanctity of IB then???

You guys lie to fend off criticism about your forced occupation of Kashmir. The Kashmiris hate the Indian occupation and cant stand being a part of the Indian union and no amount of lying or support from Pakistan can change that reality.
 
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Again another piece of overt jingoism....an overtly rosey picture about India...reality is quite different.

Pakistani F-16s would NEVER go to India even if you have an assembly line in India....there is considerable avionics and propulsion knowhow in Pakistan and we have and will work with Turkey and even Egypt since they already have the setup in place for major re-work and overhauling (Pakistani MLU work will be done in Turkey).

Complete technology transfer is an oft-touted deal but means very little when India would be getting assembly rights for a 70s design.

I know the Pak F-16's wont come to India, it was just an expression, that all other nations will send their planes here.
And their MRO facility would not be limited to just F-16's. It represents all other things by Lockheed in the Region obviously. It would be Lockheed's base. They wont make an entire MRO facility for Asia for JUST F-16's.

Oh! and btw, you are now calling an F-16 blk 70 a old design???
Dude!!, its an awsome machine! You feel so piped up with your F-16 blk 52!!, blk 70 is a different league altogether, aka F-16NG! The blk 50's are oldies LOL.:P


In any case, with the MKI work being pushed back to Russia, there are many questions with regards to how such a assembly/support/repair facility would be setup

What do you mean set up? A new factory/assembly line would be setup by Lockheed the way it wants it , the way it has in US or other nations.

Btw, the facility would be maintained by Lockheed and not the HAL, so your statement that there would be problems etc dont even have a base. They will operate out of India like any other company. Cuz McDonalds is working in India, does not mean it is different here. Go anywhere in the world and you will find the same McDonalds/KFC. It will be run by Lockheed.

The MKI's that are being outsourced to Russia is ONLY AND ONLY to accomodate the govt's wishes that the entire batch be delivered earlier than scheduled so that there is no shortage of planes. It is costing the govt extra, but they are still going thru it. There was also a press release stating that more stuff is being brought from Russia just so that work can be completed earlier than scheduled and there are no production issues in the HAL plant. So again, what you are saying has absolutely no base.

....I wager a bet that by the time something like this is setup, many countries like Pakistan would be self sufficient in the upkeep of our F-16s (we already do the engine-overhauls and structural upgrades ourselves). So I would say at least on this count, its wishful thinking.

Now, that you are saying that even if the MRO comes up, by that time, many countries would be self sufficient in keepong their F-16's. Let me tell you, this is not something you learn. There are contracts. Pakistan DOES NOT HAVE TOT with its F-16's. It has to send them somewhere else like Turkey or US or wherever, so that it can be modified and/or upgraded. Its not something you 'learn'. That in time you can do this and that. What you could do 5 years back is the same you will be able to do 5 years from now, unless you purchased the TOT, with which you can do stuff on your own.

In terms of traps, you only had to listen to the hearings on the hill wrt the Indian nuclear deal. Many of the folks on the hill said that India actually has to take sides if it wants this deal....this meant that they already exert influence on your foreign policy....a case in point is the Iranian referral to the UNSC...the GoI sold out like a champ. Secondly, with the major weapons purchases, India will be subject to US restrictions just like all of the other countries (even Israel has been impacted by US pressures).

So the only way to get around this problem is by totally aligning your interests with those of the US...in reality this is not easily doable given the regional compulsions. So slowly there are things that are happening...I see the tools that have been used to pressurize Pakistan being given off to India as well...so while not overtly alarmed at this time, I would not be very comfortable with the situation either.

With regards to you stating that India can go either way, well that is easier said than done one you have invested in something....US weaponry is not cheap, it usually forms the mainstay of many countries using it and India would not be an exception...the US may pressurize India down the road since it will not dump Pakistan for India...it can drive mileage out of both so it would be a foolish thing to take sides with one only...so the US is gaining leverage in India and that cannot be denied. This is the way the puppeteer makes inroads.

As regards to US weaponry, we are developing our own weaponry with Russia and Israel. I dont need to give you examples, you already know them. We also have Israel, Ru, for our main needs. US stuff is only the force multiplier stuff. That too we will co-develoop with Ru, or Israel in the future.

I told you earlier, India is a democracy, parties like the left wont let India be tied to the US. They will raise hell in India. India is not dependent on 1 man like Manmohan that if he feels, India has to do whatever US says. There is a very comprehensive system.

Oh also , your statement that how would we feel if our 200 planes were grounded?
Well, 2 things:
1. There are gonna be most certainly 2 types of plane ordered.
MiG 35 + F/A-18E/F OR Rafale. So only a part of the fleet is american.

2. That is why all the concerned parties are offering us ToT. We dont buy without ToT unless in very exceptional cases. And atleast in teh MRCA deal, there is ToT for all the above mentioned planes including the F-16's. So even if the US sanctions us, it does not matter. There is atleast this much foresight in teh Indian Govt that they are not taking any chances. What happened to the PAF fleet will not happen with the IAF. We will manufacture the plane as well as its compenents ourselves.

Also, just to allay such fears of what happened with Pakistan in the Indian govt, the US, is constantly giving statements that it will be a reilable and stable arms partner for India. Their ambassador giving statements that the US will be a partner in the long run, just to allay these very specific fears. Mind you this is all apart from the ToT dealings.

This is also apart from the offset policy that all the companies involved are only too happy to participate in. This way 30% of whatever we buy comes back in the Indian economy and there is high defence technology in the civilian sector.

Indeed, Boeing has already stated its plans to build an MRO facility in Nagpur for ENTIRE ASIA. All the Boeing planes will come here.
 
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Also, just to allay such fears of what happened with Pakistan in the Indian govt, the US, is constantly giving statements that it will be a reilable and stable arms partner for India. Their ambassador giving statements that the US will be a partner in the long run, just to allay these very specific fears. Mind you this is all apart from the ToT dealings.

Yeah now we hear that all that time too and you know what, we get a sense of deja vu simply because we heard the same thing in the 60s and then in the 80s...so I take it all with a grain of salt..be it for Pakistan or India....keep one thing in mind that US will never drop Pakistan for India....there is a strategic importance of the country and it will remain so with some intervals of dis-interest.

I will respond to the other points in a bit.

Regards
 
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Bull,

Take your time in responding, i know your busy typing in the office. :D

Dont get too excited.
 
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great discussion thanks to balin
so i wont interfere till therez some silly comment:P
Keep it Blain
 
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Yeah now we hear that all that time too and you know what, we get a sense of deja vu simply because we heard the same thing in the 60s and then in the 80s...so I take it all with a grain of salt..be it for Pakistan or India....keep one thing in mind that US will never drop Pakistan for India....there is a strategic importance of the country and it will remain so with some intervals of dis-interest.

I will respond to the other points in a bit.

Regards

yeah but like i mentioned. There is ToT. We aint dependent on them. They cant ground our fleet, they are offering us ToT. We can produce whatever we want here, like we do with the Su-30MKI.
 
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yeah but like i mentioned. There is ToT. We aint dependent on them. They cant ground our fleet, they are offering us ToT. We can produce whatever we want here, like we do with the Su-30MKI.

Only for the F-16s.

Boeing is not a big fan of giving away a huge chunk from their market. :angel:
 
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U.S puppet?

Too bad, that same puppet is probably smarter than all of what you Indians got.
Webby
Can you figure out five things that may prove Mush is not a puppet of USA? :) :lol:
And yes name a few 'SMART MOVES' (So called) by the same puppet that put my country in any trouble. (You would probably mention Kargil :) Right? ) :lol:
He is a puppet, every body knows it. His masters sit in white house and a hot-line is open all the time between Islamabad and white-house masters. :)
Kashif
 
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Only for the F-16s.

Boeing is not a big fan of giving away a huge chunk from their market. :angel:

Boeing has also offered ToT, licensed production in India. And also an excellent plan for offsetting. They said that this offset clause would be very ideal for them as they are already gonna invest in India(all the other companies have said this too :lol: ).:cool:

They are are making heaven and earth meet so that they can win this competition.
 
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In terms of traps, you only had to listen to the hearings on the hill wrt the Indian nuclear deal. Many of the folks on the hill said that India actually has to take sides if it wants this deal....this meant that they already exert influence on your foreign policy....a case in point is the Iranian referral to the UNSC...the GoI sold out like a champ. Secondly, with the major weapons purchases, India will be subject to US restrictions just like all of the other countries (even Israel has been impacted by US pressures).


Well its no secret, that US attaches a lot of strings to its military sale,for them its got a diplomatic tone too.Well i think the guys sitting in south block are aware of it and thats the main reason why they havnt yet deicded on it yet.

So the only way to get around this problem is by totally aligning your interests with those of the US...in reality this is not easily doable given the regional compulsions.

The only comulsion are domestic,communists are a party to the ruling coalation and they wud make a meal out of such a indian alignment with US.

So slowly there are things that are happening...I see the tools that have been used to pressurize Pakistan being given off to India as well...so while not overtly alarmed at this time, I would not be very comfortable with the situation either.

Well pakistan was more susepctable,as they didnt have access to russian weapons so had to go with US only.India has more choices.
 
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My point was with regards to the challenges with assembly in India, same sort of issues could crop up with a LM assembly line pushing things out further or making others averse to sending their own aircraft to India for overhaul as was being suggested earlier.

HAl has its hands full with projects,so any new assembly will have to have fresh investments on production/assembly lines

Well what do you think happens to a compliment of 125-200 aircraft of US origin when subjected to sanctions? That is a HUGE chunk of your airforce and if that capability is not your mainstay then you gotta have an airforce with more than a thousand combat aircraft to not feel their being grounded.

When you are buying,you carry that risk.the only way to avoid such a situation is by getting a ToT and having facility to make it(parts) domestically.

India was a democracy when it buckled under US pressure and sided against Iran even though bilaterally India has excellent relations with Iran...

Well india will get the nuke deal and probably got the arrow system from US for that.So the pros outweighed the cons.

India's left is like Pakistan's religious right...they are against US hegemony and expansion and meddling,

and both sucks
 
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