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US approves air-to-air missile deal for Saudi Arabia

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The Pentagon: The US State Department approves the sale of air-to-air missiles to Saudi Arabia, worth up to $650 million

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has requested to buy two hundred eighty (280) AIM-120C-7/C-8 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) and five hundred ninety-six (596) LAU-128 Missile Rail Launchers (MRL). Also included are containers; weapon support and support equipment; spare and repair parts; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support. The total estimated cost is $650 million..

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/ma...advanced-medium-range-air-air-missiles-amraam

hd-aspect-1489434086-advancedeaglegraphite-1531940364.jpg



* Advanced Electronics Co.
It manufactures, repairs and inspects the electronics for AMRAAM & ASRAAM missiles
- It is also developing the Air Force's stockpile of missiles

1568408655262.png


https://thedefencejournal.blogspot.com/2013/09/saudis-aec-to-develop-f-15sa-sub.html
 
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It is good to focus on air-to-air munitions, since KSA do not fully manufacture th..Unlike air-to-ground munitions!
- The Saudi stockpile from the air - land, very massive and it is unexpected it needs replenishment.. Only in 2017, a deal was signed for 104,000 air-to-ground bombs of various types, from the US alone .. It was preceded and followed by several other deals in 2020, 2019, 2018, and 2016!

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-raytheon-saudi-munitions-idUSKBN1DM2XC

There were other deals with Spain and Britain, for example..
There are local lines for the production of air-ground munitions as well..

504283934_qS4Bbn0EXdxoB1EE-mFJLf0Xyn7mh715mUyu2OdrFWY.jpg
 
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five hundred ninety-six (596) LAU-128 Missile Rail Launchers

That's crazy that they would need so many of these. That must be because they never received them with the aircrafts they bought?! But that doesn't make any sense, either, unless they never received enough of the LAU-128s which are also used as triple wracks in the F-15's case. But something is a bit strange that they either never had enough of them, or the launchers, for some strange reason have a life expectancy and need to be overhauled because of their electronics and/or the extreme heat in Saudiya has some impact on them? Or once a certain amount of missiles are fired from them, the initial flaming of the missile's rocket engine impacts the launcher to a certain degree that eventually destroys it and its internal electronics or mechanisms. It's just weird that they need almost 600 of those launchers/pylons. Sounds like a complete overhaul.

I also can't help call out the hypocrisy of the US when it comes to certain Arab countries and even non-Arab countries as far as allowing the AIM-120C-7/8 (in this case) to be sold to, while others like Egypt and Iraq aren't allowed. You take some of the main reasoning such as probably the number 1 reason for permitting the sale of the missile is the cancer's (Usrael as you like to always use lol which I think it brilliant) security.

The other reasons down the list after that number 1 (in no particular order) are 3rd party technology sharing/infractions and the recipient's human rights records, just to name the main ones. So the 3 in probably this order are Usrael's security, 3rd party technology sharing/infractions & human rights.

Of course, not to ever knock on Saudiya ever, as it is the biggest brotherly country to Egypt and this brotherhoods dates back to the days of the Prophet's [SallAllahu Aleihi WaSalam] times and there is no other relationship like this anywhere else in the world. That said, the reason I bring this up is, again, the hypocrisy of the US when it comes to its conditions and arms sales. The fact that it tries to hog world military sales while in the same breath, do whatever it can to exclude Russia and China from its own world arms monopoly, but also limit many countries it has a grip on to arms it would or would not sell to.

So a country like Egypt, has a peace treaty with Israel since 1979 and has never violated it in any way, and uses exorbitant amounts of US military hardware including being the 4th largest operator of the F-16, gets accused of 3rd party technology transfer violations, but those are certainly arguable as the more variety weapons one has, the more potential there is for representatives of other nations to inadvertently come across this equipment in Egypt which was in the last case, Hillary Clinton almost blew a gasket about.

And then, of course, there's the human rights issue where the US leverages against Egypt to its fullest capacity. Yet there are many instances that tally more abuses to citizens at the hands of police, government officials and the judicial system in the US than in Egypt in all its years of existence combined. And back to the disclaimer of brotherly love of Saudiya and this is no intention of throwing the finger at it or anything of the sort, but to expose the US' hypocrisy and for the longest time, the murder & disappearance of Gamal Hashoggshi was a HUGE highlighted reason the US would bring up to temporarily halt any weapon's purchases by Saudiya. Several members of congress would bring up other perceived human rights abuses and use them as well but in the end, the US would turn a blind eye to all these issues and go through with the sale of these weapons. And between all the fighter jets in F-15s, armor of all sorts from the best versions of Abram tanks to personnel carriers etc., and to SAM systems which are some of the best in the world between the Patriot PAC-III to of course, the THAAD anti ballistic missile defense system set up by the US to protect Saudiya. All terrific stuff and well deserved are all permitted including this new purchase by Saudiya for almost 300 AIM-120C-7/8s and the 600 launchers.

Then you have poor old Egypt lol and the measly AIM-120 which it cannot acquire for the reasons listed above. Despite having a major peace treaty agreement signed for well over 40 years and abided by to the fullest, and the incomparable human rights abuses which could be and have been argued till the cows come home as well as the 3rd party tech transfer infractions which were briefly explained due to the variety of differently sourced equipment which risks the run-in of different personnel getting close to US weapons in Egypt and nowhere near the extent needed to classify as a violation and yet, after all that, the advanced medium range A2A munition is closely kept away from Egypt despite the CISMOA treaty being signed by Egypt after refusing to do so for well over 3 decades if I'm not mistaken. That alone should be a green light along with the peace treaty to ease the critical acquisition of the BVR missile by Egypt. But sadly, it's still off limits.

Even Pakistan, a sworn an actual enemy of Israel and a nuclear state which scares the living daylights out of the US that it spies on it and all the movements the Pakistan military does relocating its nuke stockpiles from different areas to new ones for secrecy and none of this is used by the US as a reason to deny the advanced weapon.

Taking all of these matters into consideration and the picture is certainly much clearer as it is full of shameless hypocrisy to no end. The bias the US holds against Egypt is phenomenally ridiculous to no end. Watered-down jets (until the batch of 20 block 52s in 2013) and no AIM-120 while other countries such as Saudiya and Pakistan whom technically have absolutely no peaceful, economic or even diplomatic relationships with Israel (one of them actually being contentious) are allowed to purchase these advanced weapons.

See anything wrong with this entire picture? And now Egypt has to deal with CAATSA on a $2.5 billion deal it made for 26/30 Su-35S fighter jets from Russia which would be Egypt's first heavy, air superiority fighter to ever be in its inventory and which would also open the door for the best eastern BVR missiles to compensate for the lack of US ones and would raise the EAF's capabilities to another level never seen before. But here is the US again putting the sticks into Egypt and trying everything it can to prevent this from happening.

Perhaps (and I did bring this up before) is that most, if not all US made weapons in Egypt's arsenal are acquired through the US' foreign military aid package also guaranteed as part of the Egypt/Israel/US peace process that maybe if Egypt would offer to purchase some of these various systems instead of using the "aid coupon," that it might help a little. But for some reason, based on previous experience and familiarity with the situation is that it wouldn't help in the initial phase.

A big reason why this meeting coming up on November 8th-9th between Egypt's foreign minister and Anthony Blinken as well as the US DoD is very important. Quite possibly the most important meeting regarding the sale/purchase of US weapons and the avoidance of CAATSA in the insistence by Egypt to go through the Su-35S acquisition in every possible way, despite the economic sanctions that could be imposed. This is a huge deal.

It also begs the question if there is any action from Saudiya and/or the UAE in support of Egypt in this go-around as that would help quite a bit. Perhaps some back-channel phone calls to Biden and Blinken from the Crown Prince that would indicate Saudiya's full support of increasing Egypt's fighter jets' advanced air to air weaponry. A theory thrown out there would be the upgrade would help the coalition increase its strength in the region as well as compatibility with the US as well. So much can be done here in this ever so critical phase that needs to neutralize the US' huge level of hypocrisy and its control over the EAF's F-16s. We can only hope and SC, bro, sorry for the slight off-topic and the long post, my brother.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the launchers, and from this site: A VERY interesting paragraph that we should figure out what exactly are they talking about in relation to these launchers.

A Middle Eastern nation which tends to heavily modify and customize its U.S. aircraft fleet asked that the launcher integrated with their aircraft be modified to support the carriage and release of an indigenous air-to-air missile.

The MRL family of aircraft missile launchers consists of the LAU-127, LAU-128 and LAU-129, designed to safely carry and release the AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) on the F/A-18, F-15 and F-16 aircraft respectively. These single-rail launchers exist in multiple configurations, with the primary differences typically being related to the coatings used, as many parts are common throughout the series.

Based on the 1st paragraph where it mentions a Middle Eastern nation, I think it's pretty safe to assume they're talking about one of two nations in this case which are either Saudi Arabia or the UAE.
The former using one of its locally produced indigenous air-to-air missile we might've seen on SC's "Made in KSA" thread and the latter could certainly be the main culprit in this case based on the statement of heavily modifying its aircraft which the UAE has certainly done with its F-16 block 60 that we've seen quite a few of those mods. The supplier most certainly would be HALCON in the UAEs case. But what is this indigenous Air-to-Air missile from either HALCON or one from Saudi Arabia they're referring to? Any ideas, SC or Phillip?

 
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The Pentagon: The US State Department approves the sale of air-to-air missiles to Saudi Arabia, worth up to $650 million

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has requested to buy two hundred eighty (280) AIM-120C-7/C-8 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) and five hundred ninety-six (596) LAU-128 Missile Rail Launchers (MRL). Also included are containers; weapon support and support equipment; spare and repair parts; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support. The total estimated cost is $650 million..

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/ma...advanced-medium-range-air-air-missiles-amraam

hd-aspect-1489434086-advancedeaglegraphite-1531940364.jpg



* Advanced Electronics Co.
It manufactures, repairs and inspects the electronics for AMRAAM & ASRAAM missiles
- It is also developing the Air Force's stockpile of missiles

1568408655262.png


https://thedefencejournal.blogspot.com/2013/09/saudis-aec-to-develop-f-15sa-sub.html

Oh Oh Oh
Tell Immy to run back to Saudia pronto.
Maybe we can convince them to deposit half of those AIM 120's in State Bank of Pakistan for safe keeping 😁
 
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But what is this indigenous Air-to-Air missile from either HALCON or one from Saudi Arabia they're referring to? Any ideas, SC or Phillip?
It could be Israel they are referring to, but I'm really not sure to be honest.

If it is the UAE it may be based off the A-Darter or Marlin missile. It could also be a new design but I'm not sure yet.

1636136261844.png



Halcon wants to demonstrate the air to air capacity by 2025 meaning it's likely already in development right now. There is a possibility we see the air-to-air missile under development at the Dubai Airshow very shortly.
 
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That's crazy that they would need so many of these. That must be because they never received them with the aircrafts they bought?! But that doesn't make any sense, either, unless they never received enough of the LAU-128s which are also used as triple wracks in the F-15's case. But something is a bit strange that they either never had enough of them, or the launchers, for some strange reason have a life expectancy and need to be overhauled because of their electronics and/or the extreme heat in Saudiya has some impact on them? Or once a certain amount of missiles are fired from them, the initial flaming of the missile's rocket engine impacts the launcher to a certain degree that eventually destroys it and its internal electronics or mechanisms. It's just weird that they need almost 600 of those launchers/pylons. Sounds like a complete overhaul.

I also can't help call out the hypocrisy of the US when it comes to certain Arab countries and even non-Arab countries as far as allowing the AIM-120C-7/8 (in this case) to be sold to, while others like Egypt and Iraq aren't allowed. You take some of the main reasoning such as probably the number 1 reason for permitting the sale of the missile is the cancer's (Usrael as you like to always use lol which I think it brilliant) security.

The other reasons down the list after that number 1 (in no particular order) are 3rd party technology sharing/infractions and the recipient's human rights records, just to name the main ones. So the 3 in probably this order are Usrael's security, 3rd party technology sharing/infractions & human rights.

Of course, not to ever knock on Saudiya ever, as it is the biggest brotherly country to Egypt and this brotherhoods dates back to the days of the Prophet's [SallAllahu Aleihi WaSalam] times and there is no other relationship like this anywhere else in the world. That said, the reason I bring this up is, again, the hypocrisy of the US when it comes to its conditions and arms sales. The fact that it tries to hog world military sales while in the same breath, do whatever it can to exclude Russia and China from its own world arms monopoly, but also limit many countries it has a grip on to arms it would or would not sell to.

So a country like Egypt, has a peace treaty with Israel since 1979 and has never violated it in any way, and uses exorbitant amounts of US military hardware including being the 4th largest operator of the F-16, gets accused of 3rd party technology transfer violations, but those are certainly arguable as the more variety weapons one has, the more potential there is for representatives of other nations to inadvertently come across this equipment in Egypt which was in the last case, Hillary Clinton almost blew a gasket about.

And then, of course, there's the human rights issue where the US leverages against Egypt to its fullest capacity. Yet there are many instances that tally more abuses to citizens at the hands of police, government officials and the judicial system in the US than in Egypt in all its years of existence combined. And back to the disclaimer of brotherly love of Saudiya and this is no intention of throwing the finger at it or anything of the sort, but to expose the US' hypocrisy and for the longest time, the murder & disappearance of Gamal Hashoggshi was a HUGE highlighted reason the US would bring up to temporarily halt any weapon's purchases by Saudiya. Several members of congress would bring up other perceived human rights abuses and use them as well but in the end, the US would turn a blind eye to all these issues and go through with the sale of these weapons. And between all the fighter jets in F-15s, armor of all sorts from the best versions of Abram tanks to personnel carriers etc., and to SAM systems which are some of the best in the world between the Patriot PAC-III to of course, the THAAD anti ballistic missile defense system set up by the US to protect Saudiya. All terrific stuff and well deserved are all permitted including this new purchase by Saudiya for almost 300 AIM-120C-7/8s and the 600 launchers.

Then you have poor old Egypt lol and the measly AIM-120 which it cannot acquire for the reasons listed above. Despite having a major peace treaty agreement signed for well over 40 years and abided by to the fullest, and the incomparable human rights abuses which could be and have been argued till the cows come home as well as the 3rd party tech transfer infractions which were briefly explained due to the variety of differently sourced equipment which risks the run-in of different personnel getting close to US weapons in Egypt and nowhere near the extent needed to classify as a violation and yet, after all that, the advanced medium range A2A munition is closely kept away from Egypt despite the CISMOA treaty being signed by Egypt after refusing to do so for well over 3 decades if I'm not mistaken. That alone should be a green light along with the peace treaty to ease the critical acquisition of the BVR missile by Egypt. But sadly, it's still off limits.

Even Pakistan, a sworn an actual enemy of Israel and a nuclear state which scares the living daylights out of the US that it spies on it and all the movements the Pakistan military does relocating its nuke stockpiles from different areas to new ones for secrecy and none of this is used by the US as a reason to deny the advanced weapon.

Taking all of these matters into consideration and the picture is certainly much clearer as it is full of shameless hypocrisy to no end. The bias the US holds against Egypt is phenomenally ridiculous to no end. Watered-down jets (until the batch of 20 block 52s in 2013) and no AIM-120 while other countries such as Saudiya and Pakistan whom technically have absolutely no peaceful, economic or even diplomatic relationships with Israel (one of them actually being contentious) are allowed to purchase these advanced weapons.

See anything wrong with this entire picture? And now Egypt has to deal with CAATSA on a $2.5 billion deal it made for 26/30 Su-35S fighter jets from Russia which would be Egypt's first heavy, air superiority fighter to ever be in its inventory and which would also open the door for the best eastern BVR missiles to compensate for the lack of US ones and would raise the EAF's capabilities to another level never seen before. But here is the US again putting the sticks into Egypt and trying everything it can to prevent this from happening.

Perhaps (and I did bring this up before) is that most, if not all US made weapons in Egypt's arsenal are acquired through the US' foreign military aid package also guaranteed as part of the Egypt/Israel/US peace process that maybe if Egypt would offer to purchase some of these various systems instead of using the "aid coupon," that it might help a little. But for some reason, based on previous experience and familiarity with the situation is that it wouldn't help in the initial phase.

A big reason why this meeting coming up on November 8th-9th between Egypt's foreign minister and Anthony Blinken as well as the US DoD is very important. Quite possibly the most important meeting regarding the sale/purchase of US weapons and the avoidance of CAATSA in the insistence by Egypt to go through the Su-35S acquisition in every possible way, despite the economic sanctions that could be imposed. This is a huge deal.

It also begs the question if there is any action from Saudiya and/or the UAE in support of Egypt in this go-around as that would help quite a bit. Perhaps some back-channel phone calls to Biden and Blinken from the Crown Prince that would indicate Saudiya's full support of increasing Egypt's fighter jets' advanced air to air weaponry. A theory thrown out there would be the upgrade would help the coalition increase its strength in the region as well as compatibility with the US as well. So much can be done here in this ever so critical phase that needs to neutralize the US' huge level of hypocrisy and its control over the EAF's F-16s. We can only hope and SC, bro, sorry for the slight off-topic and the long post, my brother.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the launchers, and from this site: A VERY interesting paragraph that we should figure out what exactly are they talking about in relation to these launchers.

A Middle Eastern nation which tends to heavily modify and customize its U.S. aircraft fleet asked that the launcher integrated with their aircraft be modified to support the carriage and release of an indigenous air-to-air missile.

The MRL family of aircraft missile launchers consists of the LAU-127, LAU-128 and LAU-129, designed to safely carry and release the AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) on the F/A-18, F-15 and F-16 aircraft respectively. These single-rail launchers exist in multiple configurations, with the primary differences typically being related to the coatings used, as many parts are common throughout the series.

Based on the 1st paragraph where it mentions a Middle Eastern nation, I think it's pretty safe to assume they're talking about one of two nations in this case which are either Saudi Arabia or the UAE.
The former using one of its locally produced indigenous air-to-air missile we might've seen on SC's "Made in KSA" thread and the latter could certainly be the main culprit in this case based on the statement of heavily modifying its aircraft which the UAE has certainly done with its F-16 block 60 that we've seen quite a few of those mods. The supplier most certainly would be HALCON in the UAEs case. But what is this indigenous Air-to-Air missile from either HALCON or one from Saudi Arabia they're referring to? Any ideas, SC or Phillip?

They say better red than dead.. KSA can not play the US political game as they play it.. delaying, revising and all that stuff doesn't look good and in time of peace on top of that.. imagine in time of a serious conflict!?.. so there is no chance to take.. Quantity is very important due to these games..

Also to get the most TOT from the US you need to buy big quantities..

Remember that the US is the mother of capitalism.. monopoly in the armed' industry among others.. is a principle for them to maximize their profit and kill the competition or at least dominate it.. That is the main purpose of CAATSA and such laws and policies.. Dominating can be political too not just financial as we see with the US law.. so any mean is justifiable for them to keep monopoly and control of some fields.. Like in the case of Egypt it is obvious that it is more political then anything else.. and we know the cause...

As for that paragraph you've mentioned.. it is most likely if not for sure referring to Usrael.. The UAE also modifies its systems .. but not at the scale of Usrael who modifies very heavily everything they get from the US and Europe.. the last examples can be seen with the F-35.. and the Dolphin submarines or the SAAR corvettes..

You know the US makes it so complicated even for KSA and the UAE to get the weapon systems they have even signed for and were approved.. I believe the delaying and the games are on purpose.. So if they were pushing for Egypt they'll get disappointed with their own deals.. so the whole thing is to about delaying and creating stress for them so they do not push anything on the US.. and to feel happy just to get their own weapons they have purchased.. It is a psychological game.. So most likely they were pushing for Egypt.. and they will continue., since they have some good friends and influence in the US.. Egypt too.. so the weight is heavier..
 
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It could be Israel they are referring to, but I'm really not sure to be honest.

If it is the UAE it may be based off the A-Darter or Marlin missile. It could also be a new design but I'm not sure yet.

View attachment 790451


Halcon wants to demonstrate the air to air capacity by 2025 meaning it's likely already in development right now. There is a possibility we see the air-to-air missile under development at the Dubai Airshow very shortly.

Totally didn't count that cancer as part of the ME when I was reading that. Amazing how the subconscious chooses to work in certain ways sometimes. lol.

They say better red than dead.. KSA can not play the US political game as they play it.. delaying, revising and all that stuff doesn't look good and in time of peace on top of that.. imagine in time of a serious conflict!?.. so there is no chance to take.. Quantity is very important due to these games..

Also to get the most TOT from the US you need to buy big quantities..

Remember that the US is the mother of capitalism.. monopoly in the armed industry among others.. is a principle for them to maximize their profit and kill the competition or at least dominate it.. That is the main purpose of CAATSA and such laws and policies.. Dominating can be political too not just financial as we see with the US law.. so any mean is justifiable for them to keep monopoly and control of some fields.. Like in the case of Egypt it is obvious that it is more political then anything else.. and we know the cause...

As for that paragraph you've mentioned.. it is most likely if not for sure referring to Usrael.. The USE also modifies its systems .. but not at the scale of Usrael who modified very heavily everything they get from the US and Europe.. the last examples can be seen with the F-35.. and the Dolphin submarines or the SAAR corvettes..

You know the US makes it so complicated even for KSA and the UAE to get the weapon systems they have even signed for and were approved.. I believe the delaying and the games are on purpose.. So if they were pushing for Egypt they'll get disappointed with their own deals.. so the whole thing is to about delaying and creating stress for them so they do not push anything on the US.. and to be feel happy if they get their weapons.. It is a psychological game.. So most likely they were pushing for Egypt.. and they will continue., since they have some good friends and influence in the US.. Egypt too.. so the weight is heavier..

You nailed it, as usual.
 
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@Gomig-21
It would be interesting if Halcon A2A missiles can be integrated on EAF F-16s instead of AMRAAMs to reach a compromise with America.

If it is a BVR missile they are developing which there is quite a good chance of happening it would likely be equivalent to AIM-120C at least. I dont know the feasibility of that especially because it would need LM support throughout the whole process especially dealing with the radar systems.

WVR should be equivalent to AIM-9X or ASRAAM hopefully.

Personally I believe the UAE is only going to use them on the Mirages which only have MICAs which unfortunately lack the kinematics to match the AMRAAM or other BVR missiles. It will basically give them the ability to take on other fighters at much farther ranges.
 
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@Gomig-21
It would be interesting if Halcon A2A missiles can be integrated on EAF F-16s instead of AMRAAMs to reach a compromise with America.

Hey, that might just be what they end up doing if the crap hits the fan this week in Washington.

If it is a BVR missile they are developing which there is quite a good chance of happening it would likely be equivalent to AIM-120C at least. I dont know the feasibility of that especially because it would need LM support throughout the whole process especially dealing with the radar systems.

I'm pretty sure that the upgrade of all the F-16s block 32 and under included the radars which were upgraded to block 40 C/D models which included the APG-68, well capable of handling the AIM-120 and BVR missile ranges. The EAF pilots actually underwent conversion training due to that upgrade. The block 52s have the APG-68(V), which if I'm not mistaken handles the latest AIM-120 specs. So there were no more Falcons under block 40 in the EAF's inventory. But 2-way data linking and GPS guidance and all that stuff would at least need to be looked at as we don't really have enough accurate information on current configurations to know what exactly is needed. But I do think that GPS guidance is there because of all the precision guided air to ground munition and also because it's just part of the system package. I'm also pretty sure they're equipped with Link-16 data links which is what made the Rafale purchase that much of the ideal acquisition, the compatibility with all the F-16s and the E-2C Hawkeyes using link-16 and link 9 or 11, I forget exactly. The only extra needed work would be software related upgrades.

And as far as needing LM for any integration, we saw the Al-Tariqs on there and so maybe it is a bit premature to assume the EAF has the source codes for integration, but you could be right when you mentioned that it might've been an integration that didn't require software reworking and was just operated using an I-Pad lool. I love that. What a way to get around all the bull crap royale, maan!
 
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That's crazy that they would need so many of these. That must be because they never received them with the aircrafts they bought?! But that doesn't make any sense, either, unless they never received enough of the LAU-128s which are also used as triple wracks in the F-15's case. But something is a bit strange that they either never had enough of them, or the launchers, for some strange reason have a life expectancy and need to be overhauled because of their electronics and/or the extreme heat in Saudiya has some impact on them? Or once a certain amount of missiles are fired from them, the initial flaming of the missile's rocket engine impacts the launcher to a certain degree that eventually destroys it and its internal electronics or mechanisms. It's just weird that they need almost 600 of those launchers/pylons. Sounds like a complete overhaul.

I also can't help call out the hypocrisy of the US when it comes to certain Arab countries and even non-Arab countries as far as allowing the AIM-120C-7/8 (in this case) to be sold to, while others like Egypt and Iraq aren't allowed. You take some of the main reasoning such as probably the number 1 reason for permitting the sale of the missile is the cancer's (Usrael as you like to always use lol which I think it brilliant) security.

The other reasons down the list after that number 1 (in no particular order) are 3rd party technology sharing/infractions and the recipient's human rights records, just to name the main ones. So the 3 in probably this order are Usrael's security, 3rd party technology sharing/infractions & human rights.

Of course, not to ever knock on Saudiya ever, as it is the biggest brotherly country to Egypt and this brotherhoods dates back to the days of the Prophet's [SallAllahu Aleihi WaSalam] times and there is no other relationship like this anywhere else in the world. That said, the reason I bring this up is, again, the hypocrisy of the US when it comes to its conditions and arms sales. The fact that it tries to hog world military sales while in the same breath, do whatever it can to exclude Russia and China from its own world arms monopoly, but also limit many countries it has a grip on to arms it would or would not sell to.

So a country like Egypt, has a peace treaty with Israel since 1979 and has never violated it in any way, and uses exorbitant amounts of US military hardware including being the 4th largest operator of the F-16, gets accused of 3rd party technology transfer violations, but those are certainly arguable as the more variety weapons one has, the more potential there is for representatives of other nations to inadvertently come across this equipment in Egypt which was in the last case, Hillary Clinton almost blew a gasket about.

And then, of course, there's the human rights issue where the US leverages against Egypt to its fullest capacity. Yet there are many instances that tally more abuses to citizens at the hands of police, government officials and the judicial system in the US than in Egypt in all its years of existence combined. And back to the disclaimer of brotherly love of Saudiya and this is no intention of throwing the finger at it or anything of the sort, but to expose the US' hypocrisy and for the longest time, the murder & disappearance of Gamal Hashoggshi was a HUGE highlighted reason the US would bring up to temporarily halt any weapon's purchases by Saudiya. Several members of congress would bring up other perceived human rights abuses and use them as well but in the end, the US would turn a blind eye to all these issues and go through with the sale of these weapons. And between all the fighter jets in F-15s, armor of all sorts from the best versions of Abram tanks to personnel carriers etc., and to SAM systems which are some of the best in the world between the Patriot PAC-III to of course, the THAAD anti ballistic missile defense system set up by the US to protect Saudiya. All terrific stuff and well deserved are all permitted including this new purchase by Saudiya for almost 300 AIM-120C-7/8s and the 600 launchers.

Then you have poor old Egypt lol and the measly AIM-120 which it cannot acquire for the reasons listed above. Despite having a major peace treaty agreement signed for well over 40 years and abided by to the fullest, and the incomparable human rights abuses which could be and have been argued till the cows come home as well as the 3rd party tech transfer infractions which were briefly explained due to the variety of differently sourced equipment which risks the run-in of different personnel getting close to US weapons in Egypt and nowhere near the extent needed to classify as a violation and yet, after all that, the advanced medium range A2A munition is closely kept away from Egypt despite the CISMOA treaty being signed by Egypt after refusing to do so for well over 3 decades if I'm not mistaken. That alone should be a green light along with the peace treaty to ease the critical acquisition of the BVR missile by Egypt. But sadly, it's still off limits.

Even Pakistan, a sworn an actual enemy of Israel and a nuclear state which scares the living daylights out of the US that it spies on it and all the movements the Pakistan military does relocating its nuke stockpiles from different areas to new ones for secrecy and none of this is used by the US as a reason to deny the advanced weapon.

Taking all of these matters into consideration and the picture is certainly much clearer as it is full of shameless hypocrisy to no end. The bias the US holds against Egypt is phenomenally ridiculous to no end. Watered-down jets (until the batch of 20 block 52s in 2013) and no AIM-120 while other countries such as Saudiya and Pakistan whom technically have absolutely no peaceful, economic or even diplomatic relationships with Israel (one of them actually being contentious) are allowed to purchase these advanced weapons.

See anything wrong with this entire picture? And now Egypt has to deal with CAATSA on a $2.5 billion deal it made for 26/30 Su-35S fighter jets from Russia which would be Egypt's first heavy, air superiority fighter to ever be in its inventory and which would also open the door for the best eastern BVR missiles to compensate for the lack of US ones and would raise the EAF's capabilities to another level never seen before. But here is the US again putting the sticks into Egypt and trying everything it can to prevent this from happening.

Perhaps (and I did bring this up before) is that most, if not all US made weapons in Egypt's arsenal are acquired through the US' foreign military aid package also guaranteed as part of the Egypt/Israel/US peace process that maybe if Egypt would offer to purchase some of these various systems instead of using the "aid coupon," that it might help a little. But for some reason, based on previous experience and familiarity with the situation is that it wouldn't help in the initial phase.

A big reason why this meeting coming up on November 8th-9th between Egypt's foreign minister and Anthony Blinken as well as the US DoD is very important. Quite possibly the most important meeting regarding the sale/purchase of US weapons and the avoidance of CAATSA in the insistence by Egypt to go through the Su-35S acquisition in every possible way, despite the economic sanctions that could be imposed. This is a huge deal.

It also begs the question if there is any action from Saudiya and/or the UAE in support of Egypt in this go-around as that would help quite a bit. Perhaps some back-channel phone calls to Biden and Blinken from the Crown Prince that would indicate Saudiya's full support of increasing Egypt's fighter jets' advanced air to air weaponry. A theory thrown out there would be the upgrade would help the coalition increase its strength in the region as well as compatibility with the US as well. So much can be done here in this ever so critical phase that needs to neutralize the US' huge level of hypocrisy and its control over the EAF's F-16s. We can only hope and SC, bro, sorry for the slight off-topic and the long post, my brother.

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Back to the launchers, and from this site: A VERY interesting paragraph that we should figure out what exactly are they talking about in relation to these launchers.

A Middle Eastern nation which tends to heavily modify and customize its U.S. aircraft fleet asked that the launcher integrated with their aircraft be modified to support the carriage and release of an indigenous air-to-air missile.

The MRL family of aircraft missile launchers consists of the LAU-127, LAU-128 and LAU-129, designed to safely carry and release the AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) on the F/A-18, F-15 and F-16 aircraft respectively. These single-rail launchers exist in multiple configurations, with the primary differences typically being related to the coatings used, as many parts are common throughout the series.

Based on the 1st paragraph where it mentions a Middle Eastern nation, I think it's pretty safe to assume they're talking about one of two nations in this case which are either Saudi Arabia or the UAE.
The former using one of its locally produced indigenous air-to-air missile we might've seen on SC's "Made in KSA" thread and the latter could certainly be the main culprit in this case based on the statement of heavily modifying its aircraft which the UAE has certainly done with its F-16 block 60 that we've seen quite a few of those mods. The supplier most certainly would be HALCON in the UAEs case. But what is this indigenous Air-to-Air missile from either HALCON or one from Saudi Arabia they're referring to? Any ideas, SC or Phillip?

Nothing to be proud of -"So a country like Egypt, has a peace treaty with Israel since 1979".
Egypt shouldn't take it personally. The US buys oil from KSA and the money it pays it gets back by providing goods and services to KSA. It's a fair deal. The only thing Egypt could provide was peace with Israel so unless they rack up tensions they don't have that card to play.
 
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Nothing to be proud of -"So a country like Egypt, has a peace treaty with Israel since 1979".
Egypt shouldn't take it personally. The US buys oil from KSA and the money it pays it gets back by providing goods and services to KSA. It's a fair deal. The only thing Egypt could provide was peace with Israel so unless they rack up tensions they don't have that card to play.

"Pride" in the treaty was not the point at all. You misunderstood or I didn't make my point clearly enough. The point was that Egypt held up its commitment to all the conditions of the treaty -- and then some -- trough the 40 years of its existence so far, despite the recent very difficult times and internal conflict of the Arab Spring and so with that, it has certainly earned a huge amount of trust that there wouldn't be any sense of violating it. Hence there shouldn't be any apprehension that the particular weapon in question would be a threat to Israel. That was the point.

Also, if the IDF has such a great reputation that they're even a better air force than the venerable United States (and they do proclaim that actually), then what is the fear of the lowly and incompetent EAF being any sort of threat, even with possession of such a weapon? :lol: Or are they actually afraid of the EAF? With all that bravado and self aggrandizing, what's the issue?

EDIT: Also, an extension to that point is that other countries which I mentioned, not only don't have any diplomatic or economic relationships with Israel, but are actually considered "enemies" to a certain degree, yet they're able to acquire the missiles. Singling out Egypt for so many decades (and now Iraq but that's a whole other ball game) gives Egypt more legitimacy that it's being being done for no practical or legitimate reasons. And if you think Egypt doesn't have a leg to stand on, you're sadly mistaken as it has quite a bit. People like yourself (no offense) are just used to not hearing much belligerence from Egypt in decades, and so you take that as a sign of weakness. That's why we always hear ignorant nonsense like "in bed with so & so", or "slave to so & so" lmfao. People who don't examine the entire picture or understand the history end up thinking that way. Nothing could be more misleading. The only determining factor is if the leadership thinks it's worth it. That's it.
 
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They should hire Squadron leader Noman Ali Khan and Squadron leader Hasan siddiqui. The only two people in the world who have scored an actual combat kill, for like to like or superior enemy aircrafts, with this missile .
 
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Salaam


That's crazy that they would need so many of these. That must be because they never received them with the aircrafts they bought?! But that doesn't make any sense, either, unless they never received enough of the LAU-128s which are also used as triple wracks in the F-15's case. But something is a bit strange that they either never had enough of them, or the launchers, for some strange reason have a life expectancy and need to be overhauled because of their electronics and/or the extreme heat in Saudiya has some impact on them? Or once a certain amount of missiles are fired from them, the initial flaming of the missile's rocket engine impacts the launcher to a certain degree that eventually destroys it and its internal electronics or mechanisms. It's just weird that they need almost 600 of those launchers/pylons. Sounds like a complete overhaul.

I also can't help call out the hypocrisy of the US when it comes to certain Arab countries and even non-Arab countries as far as allowing the AIM-120C-7/8 (in this case) to be sold to, while others like Egypt and Iraq aren't allowed. You take some of the main reasoning such as probably the number 1 reason for permitting the sale of the missile is the cancer's (Usrael as you like to always use lol which I think it brilliant) security.

The other reasons down the list after that number 1 (in no particular order) are 3rd party technology sharing/infractions and the recipient's human rights records, just to name the main ones. So the 3 in probably this order are Usrael's security, 3rd party technology sharing/infractions & human rights.

Of course, not to ever knock on Saudiya ever, as it is the biggest brotherly country to Egypt and this brotherhoods dates back to the days of the Prophet's [SallAllahu Aleihi WaSalam] times and there is no other relationship like this anywhere else in the world. That said, the reason I bring this up is, again, the hypocrisy of the US when it comes to its conditions and arms sales. The fact that it tries to hog world military sales while in the same breath, do whatever it can to exclude Russia and China from its own world arms monopoly, but also limit many countries it has a grip on to arms it would or would not sell to.

So a country like Egypt, has a peace treaty with Israel since 1979 and has never violated it in any way, and uses exorbitant amounts of US military hardware including being the 4th largest operator of the F-16, gets accused of 3rd party technology transfer violations, but those are certainly arguable as the more variety weapons one has, the more potential there is for representatives of other nations to inadvertently come across this equipment in Egypt which was in the last case, Hillary Clinton almost blew a gasket about.

And then, of course, there's the human rights issue where the US leverages against Egypt to its fullest capacity. Yet there are many instances that tally more abuses to citizens at the hands of police, government officials and the judicial system in the US than in Egypt in all its years of existence combined. And back to the disclaimer of brotherly love of Saudiya and this is no intention of throwing the finger at it or anything of the sort, but to expose the US' hypocrisy and for the longest time, the murder & disappearance of Gamal Hashoggshi was a HUGE highlighted reason the US would bring up to temporarily halt any weapon's purchases by Saudiya. Several members of congress would bring up other perceived human rights abuses and use them as well but in the end, the US would turn a blind eye to all these issues and go through with the sale of these weapons. And between all the fighter jets in F-15s, armor of all sorts from the best versions of Abram tanks to personnel carriers etc., and to SAM systems which are some of the best in the world between the Patriot PAC-III to of course, the THAAD anti ballistic missile defense system set up by the US to protect Saudiya. All terrific stuff and well deserved are all permitted including this new purchase by Saudiya for almost 300 AIM-120C-7/8s and the 600 launchers.

Then you have poor old Egypt lol and the measly AIM-120 which it cannot acquire for the reasons listed above. Despite having a major peace treaty agreement signed for well over 40 years and abided by to the fullest, and the incomparable human rights abuses which could be and have been argued till the cows come home as well as the 3rd party tech transfer infractions which were briefly explained due to the variety of differently sourced equipment which risks the run-in of different personnel getting close to US weapons in Egypt and nowhere near the extent needed to classify as a violation and yet, after all that, the advanced medium range A2A munition is closely kept away from Egypt despite the CISMOA treaty being signed by Egypt after refusing to do so for well over 3 decades if I'm not mistaken. That alone should be a green light along with the peace treaty to ease the critical acquisition of the BVR missile by Egypt. But sadly, it's still off limits.

Even Pakistan, a sworn an actual enemy of Israel and a nuclear state which scares the living daylights out of the US that it spies on it and all the movements the Pakistan military does relocating its nuke stockpiles from different areas to new ones for secrecy and none of this is used by the US as a reason to deny the advanced weapon.

Taking all of these matters into consideration and the picture is certainly much clearer as it is full of shameless hypocrisy to no end. The bias the US holds against Egypt is phenomenally ridiculous to no end. Watered-down jets (until the batch of 20 block 52s in 2013) and no AIM-120 while other countries such as Saudiya and Pakistan whom technically have absolutely no peaceful, economic or even diplomatic relationships with Israel (one of them actually being contentious) are allowed to purchase these advanced weapons.

See anything wrong with this entire picture? And now Egypt has to deal with CAATSA on a $2.5 billion deal it made for 26/30 Su-35S fighter jets from Russia which would be Egypt's first heavy, air superiority fighter to ever be in its inventory and which would also open the door for the best eastern BVR missiles to compensate for the lack of US ones and would raise the EAF's capabilities to another level never seen before. But here is the US again putting the sticks into Egypt and trying everything it can to prevent this from happening.

Perhaps (and I did bring this up before) is that most, if not all US made weapons in Egypt's arsenal are acquired through the US' foreign military aid package also guaranteed as part of the Egypt/Israel/US peace process that maybe if Egypt would offer to purchase some of these various systems instead of using the "aid coupon," that it might help a little. But for some reason, based on previous experience and familiarity with the situation is that it wouldn't help in the initial phase.

A big reason why this meeting coming up on November 8th-9th between Egypt's foreign minister and Anthony Blinken as well as the US DoD is very important. Quite possibly the most important meeting regarding the sale/purchase of US weapons and the avoidance of CAATSA in the insistence by Egypt to go through the Su-35S acquisition in every possible way, despite the economic sanctions that could be imposed. This is a huge deal.

It also begs the question if there is any action from Saudiya and/or the UAE in support of Egypt in this go-around as that would help quite a bit. Perhaps some back-channel phone calls to Biden and Blinken from the Crown Prince that would indicate Saudiya's full support of increasing Egypt's fighter jets' advanced air to air weaponry. A theory thrown out there would be the upgrade would help the coalition increase its strength in the region as well as compatibility with the US as well. So much can be done here in this ever so critical phase that needs to neutralize the US' huge level of hypocrisy and its control over the EAF's F-16s. We can only hope and SC, bro, sorry for the slight off-topic and the long post, my brother.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the launchers, and from this site: A VERY interesting paragraph that we should figure out what exactly are they talking about in relation to these launchers.

A Middle Eastern nation which tends to heavily modify and customize its U.S. aircraft fleet asked that the launcher integrated with their aircraft be modified to support the carriage and release of an indigenous air-to-air missile.

The MRL family of aircraft missile launchers consists of the LAU-127, LAU-128 and LAU-129, designed to safely carry and release the AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) on the F/A-18, F-15 and F-16 aircraft respectively. These single-rail launchers exist in multiple configurations, with the primary differences typically being related to the coatings used, as many parts are common throughout the series.

Based on the 1st paragraph where it mentions a Middle Eastern nation, I think it's pretty safe to assume they're talking about one of two nations in this case which are either Saudi Arabia or the UAE.
The former using one of its locally produced indigenous air-to-air missile we might've seen on SC's "Made in KSA" thread and the latter could certainly be the main culprit in this case based on the statement of heavily modifying its aircraft which the UAE has certainly done with its F-16 block 60 that we've seen quite a few of those mods. The supplier most certainly would be HALCON in the UAEs case. But what is this indigenous Air-to-Air missile from either HALCON or one from Saudi Arabia they're referring to? Any ideas, SC or Phillip?


You've made some Interesting points.

If my memory serves me correctly, Pakistan wasn't offered any BVRs by the US until it became clear that Pakistan had other options namely Chinese. I remember, general musharraf said that Pakistan had money at a certain time and wanted to buy advanced planes and such but no one wanted to sell.

Egypt is a country with much potential and I think that is why even after it had recognised Israel and has been playing good, the US isn't willing to arm it beyond a certain point. Ultimately, Egypt would need to move towards improving its own industry if it wants to be a real player on the regional stage. I don't mean it isn't currently, but a morerobust economy with a good domestic defence industry would make a big difference.

I think the Israelis, regardless of how many peace agreements you sign with them, would not be happy with a militarily strong Egypt. From the Israeli perspective, it makes sense given the size difference.

It may even be that the Egyptian planners realize this fact and aren't trying to hard to acquire that sort of tech simply because they do not feel an urgent need vs the potential cost (of a worried Israel).

It's like why Pakistan does not test ballistic missiles beyond a certain range even though it likely poses the tech and maybe even the actual capacity. You have to justify capabilities and maybe if the Egyptians have a similar issue. Who do the Egyptians need the Aim120s for? The Egyptians lack an excuse like Pakistan has India: an open enemy. The Israelis are not open enemies of Egypt. Even the Saudis and UAE have the Iranian excuse.
Also, if the IDF has such a great reputation that they're even a better air force than the venerable United States (and they do proclaim that actually), then what is the fear of the lowly and incompetent EAF being any sort of threat, even with possession of such a weapon? :lol: Or are they actually afraid of the EAF? With all that bravado and self aggrandizing, what's the issue?


Exactly my point. The Israelis are trying to ensure their own safety. It's not a matter of sportsmanship or being honourable. They are too small to afford to mess up.

They want to ensure maximum advantage for themselves and that means trying to keep the EAF as underequiped and weak as possible. Its not about fighting fair rather about winning.
 
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Saudi Air Force is the most Powerful in the region... their rich pockets really pays off as they have some of the best fighters the world can offer.
 
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Salaam




You've made some Interesting points.

If my memory serves me correctly, Pakistan wasn't offered any BVRs by the US until it became clear that Pakistan had other options namely Chinese. I remember, general musharraf said that Pakistan had money at a certain time and wanted to buy advanced planes and such but no one wanted to sell.

Egypt is a country with much potential and I think that is why even after it had recognised Israel and has been playing good, the US isn't willing to arm it beyond a certain point. Ultimately, Egypt would need to move towards improving its own industry if it wants to be a real player on the regional stage. I don't mean it isn't currently, but a morerobust economy with a good domestic defence industry would make a big difference.

I think the Israelis, regardless of how many peace agreements you sign with them, would not be happy with a militarily strong Egypt. From the Israeli perspective, it makes sense given the size difference.

It may even be that the Egyptian planners realize this fact and aren't trying to hard to acquire that sort of tech simply because they do not feel an urgent need vs the potential cost (of a worried Israel).

It's like why Pakistan does not test ballistic missiles beyond a certain range even though it likely poses the tech and maybe even the actual capacity. You have to justify capabilities and maybe if the Egyptians have a similar issue. Who do the Egyptians need the Aim120s for? The Egyptians lack an excuse like Pakistan has India: an open enemy. The Israelis are not open enemies of Egypt. Even the Saudis and UAE have the Iranian excuse.

You have mentioned something Egypt is well aware of they have their own defense industry coming along well. Aside from that I don't understand the insertion of Israel into all Egyptian posts. This is not the 50 or 60s where Egypt's population was less than 15m but not now Egypt is over 100m it can't really be compared to Israel even without nukes it is just to big for them. The reality is Egypt doesn't view Israel as existential threat or rival but it views larger coalition as existential threat so the repeated Israel insertion is getting tiring because it really doesn't touch upon realistic geopolitics. Egypt has reached long time ago a certain level where it doesn't view Israel as threat, rival or security issue but Egypt does view NATO existential threat however this is ground reality and it doesn't mean there is rivalry between NATO and Egypt in fact they are close allies but they remain sort of the only existential threat to Egypt militarily.

Egypt path way excuse will be Iran who will reach break-out point in 2031 but the key is for them to build up or prepare it until 2031 where Iran announces break-out point to go Nuclear technically Iran is doing everyone a favor because it will enforce the region to arm themselves responsible but the Iranians won't reach break-out point until 2031 but either way would have been better around 2025 but all the same. The announcements will come immediately after that
 
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