Urdu is not our language: Mahmood Khan Achakzai in PDM's Karachi gathering.

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

I fully understood you, I am trying to point out that we cannot have everything, hence the cauldron reference, there is so much you can put in a pot, before it spoils. That will be the end result of keeping on yearning for this and that, then it will never stop. You have your wishes for your reasons, someone else will have their wishes for their reasons, and on it goes.

Like you say, Pakistani nation has happily accepted Urdu, from day one. There is no need to complicate the issue. There is a national language and regional one, some people have two regional languages as heritage, as I do, and English is a global language so nothing wrong with keeping it, although two languages are sufficient, a national one and a regional one, adding another is spoiling the pot.

I couldn't care less about sucking up to the Afghans, they should be sucking up to us if anything, we are 8 times bigger, and have been looking after their sorry ungrateful asses for 40 years. Honestly i rather not have them suck up to us, just live their lives and leave us alone. To the East or West, they can all go to hell, it is time to spend time on ourselves. The only thing that matters is what is good for Pakistan, we have the right balance, nothing more is needed.

The kind of thinking you are presenting, brings a person to them or us cliffhanger, sorry but it is true. Please do not complicate settled issues, if you and others have a desire for a certain language, great, I just don't see the point of complicating a settled issue. Dari maybe a beautiful language, and have links to Urdu like other languages, but it is alien to the vast majority of Pakistanis. Enjoy it, love it, but keep it at that.

I am only discussing this because I know you understand what I am saying. This here is a bigger debate and people reading your views will take away that there is discord among Pakistani regarding Urdu. I know you are not saying that, but it is how it has come across. And, it is being fed, because it is encouraging trolls to add their bits.

I read your post, and honestly brother I disagree.

Pakistan must spread, expand, and aggressively put its ideology out there. For that end, Dari is important so that we can keep Afghanistan free and out of enemy propaganda. Also there is our brotherly nation of Tajikstan, which has rejected Indian bases on its territory.

I will respond further in a bit.

 

[peagle]

I read your post, and honestly brother I disagree.

Pakistan must spread, expand, and aggressively put its ideology out there. For that end, Dari is important so that we can keep Afghanistan free and out of enemy propaganda. Also there is our brotherly nation of Tajikstan, which has rejected Indian bases on its territory.

I will respond further in a bit.

Bro, you cannot learn every language in the world, just so you can have some influence. This is starting to go off the thread subject so lets not go too deeply on this aspect. But, if those ungrateful so n so's do not care about us after us looking after them for 40 years, and helping them defeat the Soviets, at great cost to ourselves, they will never care for us.

Still the basic point is you cannot make friends by bending over, we'll appear pathetic, I've seen it.

I'll give you an example, I think you'll probably enjoy it.
One of my closest friend is a Greek Cypriot, a proud Greek, served in the Cypriot army, and the army even paid for his masters. Still has family there, and land dispute stuck on the Turkish side. So, as deep in that conflict as it goes.

We met just over 12 years ago, at a point when we were still becoming good friends, Turkish issue came up, not negatively, just a discussion, at that point I didn't know much about Turkey, except the love I felt for the people. I told him, that "I feel for you, and hope you guys sort it out soon, but Turkey is close to my heart, I could never oppose Turkey or its people", many many years later we are in the best friends category. Simple rule of life is, you do what's best for you, and stay honest with the ones you care about, you cannot bend in the hope of their goodwill, it has never worked and cannot work.

Too many examples to ignore. We cannot learn languages for the sake of making friends. No other language has anything it can offer to the nation and people of Pakistan. Unless, it is a global language.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Bro, you cannot learn every language in the world, just so you can have some influence. This is starting to go off the thread subject so lets not go too deeply on this aspect. But, if those ungrateful so n so's do not care about us after us looking after them for 40 years, and helping them defeat the Soviets, at great cost to ourselves, they will never care for us.

Still the basic point is you cannot make friends by bending over, we'll appear pathetic, I've seen it.

I'll give you an example, I think you'll probably enjoy it.
One of my closest friend is a Greek Cypriot, a proud Greek, served in the Cypriot army, and the army even paid for his masters. Still has family there, and land dispute stuck on the Turkish side. So, as deep in that conflict as it goes.

We met just over 12 years ago, at a point when we were still becoming good friends, Turkish issue came up, not negatively, just a discussion, at that point I didn't know much about Turkey, except the love I felt for the people. I told him, that "I feel for you, and hope you guys sort it out soon, but Turkey is close to my heart, I could never oppose Turkey or its people", many many years later we are in the best friends category. Simple rule of life is, you do what's best for you, and stay honest with the ones you care about, you cannot bend in the hope of their goodwill, it has never worked and cannot work.

Too many examples to ignore. We cannot learn languages for the sake of making friends. No other language has anything it can offer to the nation and people of Pakistan. Unless, it is a global language.

I shared my thoughts above brother, I don't have any more to say on the matter.

I have a positive view of Afghan people, I grew up with them in Central Punjab. I also greatly admire Pukhtoon culture, esp of former FATA. I share those views openly here.

As far as the views of others, plenty of Indians get irritated when I talk about an Afghanistan-Pakistan merger, and many on this forum will start becoming openly hostile and abusive towards me for my views.

What is most interesting is that this topic was in discussion between our two countries in 1999.

 

[peagle]

I shared my thoughts above brother, I don't have any more to say on the matter.

I have a positive view of Afghan people, I grew up with them in Central Punjab. I also greatly admire Pukhtoon culture, esp of former FATA. I share those views openly here.

As far as the views of others, plenty of Indians get irritated when I talk about an Afghanistan-Pakistan merger, and many on this forum will start becoming openly hostile and abusive towards me for my views.

What is most interesting is that this topic was in discussion between our two countries in 1999.

I used to believe in that, in my youth I even imagined a flag for the two countries, the same flag as Pakistan with either a black border or a black stripe between the white and the green to signify the merger lol. But reality bites, and now I would never want to see such a thing. Anyway, that's another topic.

The purpose of me raising my point was, your views were coming across as a bit confused, you are one person I have interacted with the most here, also Magnus, and a couple of others to a lesser degree. You also have provided some guidance to me on my first experience with online forums, so I understand your views, and I think I know where you are coming from. Someone who doesn't and reads your comments would have gone away with a different message.

It is one thing to say clearly that you wish Dari to be the third official language,
or you wish English to be replaced with Dari, so Urdu and Dari become official languages.

But, you were saying Urdu is great, but also you wish it was Dari, which means you wish Urdu to be replaced with Dari as national language, someone reading this would think that Urdu is not an accepted language in Pakistan and that you hate Urdu, if that is the case then that is your right, I have no problem with that, believe what you wish. If that is not the case, then you should know that is how it was coming across. I think it was not the case.

As a brother, I merely stepped in so the message does not get confused for readers, if in fact there is no hate towards Urdu.

Just the messaging was unclear, and I was trying to clarify the situation. Hope you understand.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

But, you were saying Urdu is great, but also you wish it was Dari, which means you wish Urdu to be replaced with Dari as national language, someone reading this would think that Urdu is not an accepted language in Pakistan and that you hate Urdu, if that is the case then that is your right, I have no problem with that, believe what you wish. If that is not the case, then you should know that is how it was coming across. I think it was not the case.

When Pakistan was being made, we had to choose a national language. We chose Urdu, regardless of our personal opinions, it was the best choice as there is alot of history there with the ML and to assimilate a large population coming from what is now India, and eventually Biharis/Bengalis from BD around 1970s.

Urdu is not going away anytime soon, nor should it, as it is the reality and a national pride of all Pakistanis. Most Pakistanis can speak their native tongues fluently, but everything, outside of English, is written in Urdu almost.

I love Urdu also because of its tremendous borrowing and use of Arabic, Farsi, and Turkish words, almost every word has 3 or more synonyms. This makes Pakistani Urdu a very versatile language, as it has evolved with the Pakistani people.

The case in 1947 could have been made for Farsi as well, but it would have presented different problems.

Now that the Pakistani state is more or less consolidated under an almost one party government, it time to move forward. in sha Allah with PPP and N out, we will no longer have to look behind our backs.

For Pakistan to survive, we must expand. We can no longer afford to be an isolationist state. We saw that with the WoT. Once we plan to look outwards for the first time in several decades, we see that Urdu is not incredibly useful anymore. Its use is only in Pakistan (and Kashmir.)

We can see India, but you know that our ties won't improve anytime soon, and Indian Muslims would rather we not involve ourselves in their affairs (it is a death sentence for them.) Bangladesh also has rejected Urdu, in favor of their native language, so there is no use there as well. Our Eastern relations do not inspire any confidence, where Urdu may have been useful.

If we look to our North, we see two Farsi dialect speaking states, Afghanistan with Dari and Tajikistan with Tajiki. Looking further north, we see Turkic languages, which are close to Turkish. There is a lot of scope for development in this direction.

To our West, we have Iran, which is at best neutral towards us and at times extremely hostile. Then there are Arab states who have their own problems and demands of us, none of which we want to get too involved in.

Then beyond Iran, we have our best friends Turkey and Azerbaycan, two Turkish speaking countries.

To our Southwest, maybe there may be some room for influence later on in Africa (Somalia,) or Southern Arabia (Yemen, Oman) in the future, but not now.

 

[EGalois]

It wasn't the language of the Muslim courts on any Muslim rulership in the subcontinent, Persian, or more correctly, Afghan Persian was the language of the Muslim courts all around Indian subcontinent. Urdu, or Lashkari as it was more commonly known, was a hybrid colloquial form of speech that developed around Delhi and What is now Utter Pradesh, Bihar and Deccan respectively.

This was true before 1837, when the British banned Persian and promoted Urdu (and later Hindi). But Persian still held cultural sway. Allama Iqbal wrote most of his works in Persian. Some of the greatest South Asian poets wrote in Persian.
In 1947, Persian could be used alongside Urdu, or at least be taught as a classical language linked with South Asian Muslim heritage.

 

[peagle]

When Pakistan was being made, we had to choose a national language. We chose Urdu, regardless of our personal opinions, it was the best choice as there is alot of history there with the ML and to assimilate a large population coming from what is now India, and eventually Biharis/Bengalis from BD around 1970s.

Urdu is not going away anytime soon, nor should it, as it is the reality and a national pride of all Pakistanis. Most Pakistanis can speak their native tongues fluently, but everything, outside of English, is written in Urdu almost.

I love Urdu also because of its tremendous borrowing and use of Arabic, Farsi, and Turkish words, almost every word has 3 or more synonyms. This makes Pakistani Urdu a very versatile language, as it has evolved with the Pakistani people.

The case in 1947 could have been made for Farsi as well, but it would have presented different problems.

Now that the Pakistani state is more or less consolidated under an almost one party government, it time to move forward. in sha Allah with PPP and N out, we will no longer have to look behind our backs.

For Pakistan to survive, we must expand. We can no longer afford to be an isolationist state. We saw that with the WoT. Once we plan to look outwards for the first time in several decades, we see that Urdu is not incredibly useful anymore. Its use is only in Pakistan (and Kashmir.)

We can see India, but you know that our ties won't improve anytime soon, and Indian Muslims would rather we not involve ourselves in their affairs (it is a death sentence for them.) Bangladesh also has rejected Urdu, in favor of their native language, so there is no use there as well. Our Eastern relations do not inspire any confidence, where Urdu may have been useful.

If we look to our North, we see two Farsi dialect speaking states, Afghanistan with Dari and Tajikistan with Tajiki. Looking further north, we see Turkic languages, which are close to Turkish. There is a lot of scope for development in this direction.

To our West, we have Iran, which is at best neutral towards us and at times extremely hostile. Then there are Arab states who have their own problems and demands of us, none of which we want to get too involved in.

Then beyond Iran, we have our best friends Turkey and Azerbaycan, two Turkish speaking countries.

To our Southwest, maybe there may be some room for influence later on in Africa (Somalia,) or Southern Arabia (Yemen, Oman) in the future, but not now.

You started off extremely well, but then I lost you.
I agree with much of what you said, but on Urdu, it was again confusing, Again you said it is great it defines us and so on, but then you went onto say It won't be useful in future? Why would it become less useful in few decades, I don't understand.
You do realise that in a few decades Pakistan will be a country of around 400 million, That's no tiny country. That's a giant.

In one of our previous discussions, I mentioned Economic C0-operation Organisation (ECO),
it consists of all the Central Asian states, plus Afghanistan, Iran, Azerbaijan and Turkey, all the countries you mentioned.
Total population almost 500 million,
Pakistan 230 million, Pakistan is almost 50% of that community, We need to recognise our importance, and stop pleasing others.

A country with a population of 400 million, and the single largest Muslim population on earth, the Language Pakistan speaks is going to matter, Urdu is going to matter, especially if we manage to get our economy in shape. They will need to learn our language, not the other way round.

But the purpose of this thread need not become lost, and I think it has,
either Urdu is our language or it isn't.
I have never seen any opposition to Urdu in real life or in writing. A love for a historical mother tongue is not opposition to Urdu, Love for Dari also need not be opposition to Urdu, but a message needs to be clear.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Urdu is different in the sense that it was brought forth as a communication device between multi-ethnic soldiery and thus was able to become more rooted amongst the populace than persian and while persian heavily influenced the languages of the empires it was administered in, Urdu was formed from the very languages that were found in the region or were being brought forth. It is not an Indian construct.

Like most languages, Urdu was never 'brought forth'; it evolved on its own, and its name reflects the origins of the patois that became a language.

Second, there were cogent reasons why it became rooted amongst the 'populace', whatever that term is supposed to convey in the 11th century. The most prominent reason will become apparent when you make a list of the verbs used; the patois was based on an existing structure, and while I deeply sympathise with the impulse that sees it as a language with roots equally validated by two linguistic poles, that is clearly not what happened; the bipolar reconstruction that is constantly referenced by those commenting on it here is wishful thinking.

Third, your point about Persian is valid, and so too the points about it made by earlier comments. However, what @Indus Pakistan was suggesting, I think, was the use of a language neutral to the components of the Pakistani population, so that nobody would either gain or lose by its general use.

Fourth, being an Indian construct is not original sin; many useful things have been Indian constructs. While your assertion is pertinent, it is also excessively defensive; there is no BJP cell for the imposition of the idea of Indian origins of Pakistani culture - as yet. If there are sustained attempts at shrugging off these currently non-existent burdens, it will attract attention. By this you will deduce that my toe is hurting.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I think, was the use of a language neutral to the components of the Pakistani population, so that nobody would either gain or lose by its general use.

Official languages are a highway to jobs, influence, media, prestige, social value and when a choice is made the danger is it will confer advantage to some whilst placing others at a disadvantage. And with regards to India it is no sin to have aspects derived from that country - all neighbours across the globe tend to share some aspects. But what I find amusing is the notion of "two nations" or "two cultures" who were apparently not able to fit ended up with official languages which are exactly the same coin but each picks the obverse or reverse.

Over the last decade my Urdu has improved vastly. Mostly because I began to take interest in Pakistani politics and often watched political debates and or speaches by PTI leaders etc. One of the interesting consequences has been I now often end up watching Indian news or discussion channels and even when they speak Hindi I can keep up ~ although sometimes I might use context to figure out a word. As a lay observor I can thus conclude that whatever is spoken in mainstream Pakistani and Indian media is 99% mutually intelligible.

I have also come across Bengali, Tamil channels and I must admit I am entirely lost as my ears cannot decypher anything. These indeed are separate languages.

The Hindi versus Urdu fight notwithstanding ....

 

[Imad.Khan]

I'm not sure about your etymology lesson, but you have to admit, your people did indeed make plunder and loot of the wealth east of the Indus a way of life.

I never claimed to be an expert in etymology but those meanings were told to me by an Indian Punjabi. However that is besides the point, everyone's ancestors have a history, you don't see me calling everyone whos ancestors were hindus "peshabkhor"

So going back to my original reply, please don't call us Pathans.

Pathan Name Meaning, Family History, Family Crest & Coats of Arms

Learn about the Pathan Family Crest, its Origin and History. Where did the Pathan surname come from? Where did the family branches go?

www.houseofnames.com

You do realize that this has nothing to do with us Pukhtoons, right?

Would all Urdu haters including Mr. Achkazai tell me and the rest of the nation what should be the national language that all the units of the Federation would accept? If not then all should shut up and accept whatever has been agreed by the people a lot wiser than the current lot of politicians and all the members of this forum.

I am not a hater of the language but my vote is for Klingon

 

[Imad.Khan]

On a more serious note, does it really make a difference what is the national language of Pakistan? Its not like we use it for anything anyway. Our preferred mode of education is English (unless ofcourse someone belongs to a poor family and then has to go to a public school). Majority of the people speak their own native tongues. Even people that speak Urdu nowadays speak a distorted version of it, either a mish-mash of Urdu & English or an extremely distasteful version of bollywood underworld hindi mix, especially in Karachi and it sounds horrible.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Again you said it is great it defines us and so on, but then you went onto say It won't be useful in future?

No, bhai, I didn't say this.

I said the utility of Urdu outside of Pakistan is limited for us.

We need to elevate and popularize Farsi in Pakistan to appreciate our literary, religious, and historical traditions mainly.

Influence in Afghanistan is an additional advantage.

You do realize that this has nothing to do with us Pukhtoons, right?

Yes, that is my point exactly.

I have never seen any opposition to Urdu in real life or in writing. A love for a historical mother tongue is not opposition to Urdu, Love for Dari also need not be opposition to Urdu, but a message needs to be clear.

Yes, we Pakistanis love Urdu, especially our unique version of the language, full of the flair of Punjabi, Pukhto, etc.

We love the heavy infusion of Farsi and Arabic words, which makes it very easy for us to relate to Islamic and Sufi concepts.

If you speak Urdu like Shah Mahmood Qureshi or our Ulema, you are a stone throw from Dari anyway.

 

[Cherub786]

I never claimed to be an expert in etymology but those meanings were told to me by an Indian Punjabi.

Okay well take this lesson from a Pakistani Punjabi: "Indian Punjabis especially the Sardars are brainless idiots, take everything they say with a grain of salt"

 

[Imad.Khan]

Okay well take this lesson from a Pakistani Punjabi: "Indian Punjabis especially the Sardars are brainless idiots, take everything they say with a grain of salt"

that is a very sweeping statement, which i do not agree with.

 

[fitpOsitive]

Did not know Bollywood makes movies for a small elite and foreign people in Karachi. Last time I heard Bollywood made fairy tale movies for the semi-literate masses if India.
There are millions more and certainly in greater numbers then you lot but who don't have access to internet. Otherwise you would get to see the real picture. You think PDF demographic represents Pakistan?

OK you suggest a national language of Pakistan? By God we will follow, even if it's Mongolian.
Urdu was not mother tongue of most Karachiites. When my forefathers came to Pakistan, they were speaking Haryanvi. Now we are speaking Urdu, because Qauid said so.
Even in the country, where you live, English has engulfed Irish, Scottish and various other smaller local languages.
So what do you say we should do, or is it even our fault? We obeyed what Qauid said, and we will continue to do that.