Unanswered Israeli Air Strikes Against Syria Raise S-400 Questions

[F-22Raptor]

TEL AVIV: Israeli air strikes against targets in Syria may be one of the main reasons for the growing crisis between Russia and Turkey since they’re highlighting the Russian-made S-400 air defense systems may not be as effective as Turkey believed.

The first signs of dissatisfaction with the Russian air defense systems came on May 1 when the Syria Direct websiteran a story quoting what was described as a Syrian military source who criticized the S-300 air defense systems supplied by Russia. The source pointed to the repeated failures of the Russian-made systems to protect sites in Syria from the Israeli strikes. The comments by the apparent Syrian military official was the first clear sign of a big dispute between Moscow and Ankara related to the operational efficiency of the air defense systems.



Turkey has signed a deal with Russia to purchase S-400 systems in a deal worth more than $1 billion. The first systems have already been supplied to Turkey but they are not operational yet.

Last year, the Israeli air force hit more than 200 targets in Syria connected to the Iranian effort to upgrade Hezbollah’s rockets. Some of those attacks have been reported to involve Israeli F-35s. The attacks continue apace this year with Syrian air defense forces having launched more than 1,000 surface-air missiles to try and foil the repeated Israeli attacks. They’ve had little effect so far.

The latest attack was Thursday. According to the Syrian Center for Human Rights, at least nine people were killed, four of them Syrians and five of whom are unknown at this time. Reportedly, the number may go up. The Lebanese Al-Miyadin channel, which is close to Hezbollah, reported that Israeli planes attacked four targets and returned to Israel. Israeli aircraft attacked Syrian regime security factories and destroyed weapons depots, according to the Syrian Center for Human Rights.


Washington ejected Turkey from the F-35 program because of President Erdogan’s decision to go ahead with the S-400 deal. While it accepted delivery of at least one, Turkey has delayed ordering additional S-400 batteries.

An Israeli expert who spoke on condition of anonymity said the U.S has been put in an almost impossible situation.

“The Turkish government spat in the face of the U.S by buying the Russian-made missiles. The retaliation was fast. But the reality these days is very complicated, a fact that forces Washington to make two steps backward. When you have nuclear weapons on Turkish soil, a request for Patriot missiles (made by Erdogan in March) cannot be turned down.” Syria did manage to down an Israeli F-16 in February 2018, but the Israeli military later said the crew made an error when threatened.

Tal Inbar, an Israeli defense analyst, told Breaking Defense that the S-300 and S-400 have never been proved in action against advanced fighters. “In addition the S-400s in Turkey are not operational,” he noted, “so Ankara asked for the Patriots.”

https://breakingdefense.com/2020/06...4.1570839083.1591641270-2058618215.1563220009

 

[F-22Raptor]

I know the Israelis are thrilled with their F-35s.

Turkey, on the other hand, are absolute imbeciles for going with S-400s when you could have had the dominant F-35.

 

[zectech]

junk article. For starters S-400s are not there to protect Assad, they are there to defend the Russian base and Russian assets.

So jews are saying that their agent putin would fire at Isreali F-35s.

 

[Philosopher]

The assertions made by such articles are based on the assumption that the S-400s attempted to counter the aerial threats but were not successful. There is no evidence to suggest such systems were even attempted to be used, on the other hand, there is a plenitude of cases involving the use of lower tier systems. Follow this logical line of reasoning then hopefully you'll understand that the relative "silence" from these S-300/400 has most probably nothing to do with their capability but rather due to an obvious reluctance to use them. Now, having said that, whether the S-300/400 will be as effective as advertised is another matter. I am not surprised media propaganda machines are either spreading misinformation due to ignorance, or deliberately posting disinformation.

On a general note, I think it is important for people to realise long range systems such as S-300/400, Patriot, Bavar-373 et cetra are not "do it all" systems. Used in a solitary sense, they are highly vulnerable. Their capability truly shines when used in a proper integrated air defence (IAD) network, something which the Syrians lack.

 

[Stannis Baratheon]

I know the Israelis are thrilled with their F-35s.

Turkey, on the other hand, are absolute imbeciles for going with S-400s when you could have had the dominant F-35.

S-400 hasn't been used in Syria and even the S-300 are not active as Assad fears Israeli attack. Turkey on the other hand should've definitely given up on the S-400 for F-35 and gone for domestic SAM systems. Turkey even has an aircraft carrier for possible F-35bs.

 

[bsruzm]

when you could have had the dominant F-35.

No, thanks.

 

[-SINAN-]

The assertions made by such articles are based on the assumption that the S-400s attempted to counter the aerial threats but were not successful. There is no evidence to suggest such systems were even attempted to be used, on the other hand, there is a plenitude of cases involving the use of lower tier systems. Follow this logical line of reasoning then hopefully you'll understand that the relative "silence" from these S-300/400 has most probably nothing to do with their capability but rather due to an obvious reluctance to use them. Now, having said that, whether the S-300/400 will be as effective as advertised is another matter. I am not surprised media propaganda machines are either spreading misinformation due to ignorance, or deliberately posting disinformation.

Can you open up this "obvious reluctance"?

I too, have questions about S400/S300 effectiveness. It doesn't makes much sense that you are not using your high tier AD systems and take a pounding every single month.

No, thanks.

 

[Philosopher]

Can you open up this "obvious reluctance"?

From what I can see, these systems are under the control of the Russians. Unless the Russian assets are being targeted, then I do not see these systems being used to target the Israelis on the behalf of the Syrians. If we had cases of these systems attempting to counter air strikes and failing, then we could start to question their capabilities. As mentioned previously, the fact that the Syrian systems are constantly attempting to engage the Israelis and contrasting this to the utter silence from the S-300/400 points to a deliberate decision not to use them. Whether the Russians are not using them for a political reason (due to to an agreement with Israelis) or military reason or perhaps a combinations of both is not something we will be privy to here.

I would be very cautious in trying to judge the capability of the S-300/400 based on their performance in the Syrian theater, this is assuming they start being used. Why do I say this? Because outside of a proper integrated air defence network, these systems are highly vulnerable. Of course they can still cause damage, but misunderstanding their actual utility and the context they should be used will not be a "fair" assessment of their capability.

 

[Mithridates]

Can you open up this "obvious reluctance"?

if s-300/400 target any Israeli or Turkish plane, it's like an invitation card to NATO/US to intervene. or at least gives a green light for turkey and Israel to support terrorists on the ground. support we saw in the beginning of civil war before Russia intervene. media propaganda and tons of weapons and intel.
it's kinda like operation praying mantis, we could establish no fly zone over Persian gulf and Arabian sea with f-14s but... it was a political decision so as this one.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Considering IDF never attacks SAA anyway so why bother use S-400?

 

[-SINAN-]

if s-300/400 target any Israeli or Turkish plane, it's like an invitation card to NATO/US to intervene. or at least gives a green light for turkey and Israel to support terrorists on the ground. support we saw in the beginning of civil war before Russia intervene. media propaganda and tons of weapons and intel.
it's kinda like operation praying mantis, we could establish no fly zone over Persian gulf and Arabian sea with f-14s but... it was a political decision so as this one.

Still makes no sense. So it is okay to fire with all other AD systems but not S-300 and S-400...what's logic behind that.

 

[Beny Karachun]

Considering IDF never attacks SAA anyway so why bother use S-400?

This claim is false and illogical eitherway.

Still makes no sense. So it is okay to fire with all other AD systems but not S-300 and S-400...what's logic behind that.

They just don't want sales to plummit after S-400 and S-300 get humiliated.

 

[-SINAN-]

From what I can see, these systems are under the control of the Russians. Unless the Russian assets are being targeted, then I do not see these systems being used to target the Israelis on the behalf of the Syrians. If we had cases of these systems attempting to counter air strikes and failing, then we could start to question their capabilities. As mentioned previously, the fact that the Syrian systems are constantly attempting to engage the Israelis and contrasting this to the utter silence from the S-300/400 points to a deliberate decision not to use them. Whether the Russians are not using them for a political reason (due to to an agreement with Israelis) or military reason or perhaps a combinations of both is not something we will be privy to here.

I would be very cautious in trying to judge the capability of the S-300/400 based on their performance in the Syrian theater, this is assuming they start being used. Why do I say this? Because outside of a proper integrated air defence network, these systems are highly vulnerable. Of course they can still cause damage, but misunderstanding their actual utility and the context they should be used will not be a "fair" assessment of their capability.

Syria has 3 Battalions of S-300, in total 24 launchers, approximately 100 missiles according to Russians.
https://tass.com/defense/1025020

I mean Syrian Arab Army has S-300. So, some guys saying Syria never used S-300 although it got hit by Israel for 200 times.....

Sorry, but this sounds like a pure propaganda. Similar to what we heard when TB-2s decimated Russian ADs both in Libya and Syria.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Syria has 3 Battalions of S-300, in total 24 launchers, approximately 100 missiles according to Russians.
https://tass.com/defense/1025020

I mean Syrian Arab Army has S-300. So, some guys saying Syria never used S-300 although it got hit by Israel for 200 times.....

Sorry, but this sounds like a pure propaganda. Similar to what we heard when TB-2s decimated Russian ADs both in Libya and Syria.

Israel never hit SAA.

 

[Beny Karachun]

if s-300/400 target any Israeli or Turkish plane, it's like an invitation card to NATO/US to intervene. or at least gives a green light for turkey and Israel to support terrorists on the ground. support we saw in the beginning of civil war before Russia intervene. media propaganda and tons of weapons and intel.
it's kinda like operation praying mantis, we could establish no fly zone over Persian gulf and Arabian sea with f-14s but... it was a political decision so as this one.

Why bring the S-300 and S-400 into Syria then?
ISIS has no airforce, they're clearly meant for airforces like Israel and Turkey.