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UN, Indian Officials Agree India Worse Than Pakistan, Bangladesh in Food, Hygiene

Riaz

If you started this thread with this post, you probably would have got some constructive and supportive posts from Indian members as well and the thread would have lasted a couple of pages. Unfortunately your message came out only on the 6th page.
 
Pakistan is better than India in many aspects.

(01) Food
(02) Hygiene
(03) Poverty
(04) Missile technology
(05) Sports Goods
(06) Leather products
(07) Carpets
......................

I can go on and on.

Great Articles Riaz.:pakistan:
 
This entire piece is based on the writer's own incorrect perceptions rather than any credible data from international sources. It fails even the very basic fact checks.

The facts show that the vast majority of Indians are significantly worse off than Pakistanis.

Here's the real comparisons between the two neighbors:

One out of every three illiterate adults in the world is an Indian, according to UNESCO.

One out of very two hungry persons in the world is an Indian, according to World Food Program.

Almost one out of two Indians lives below the poverty line of $1.25 per day.

And yet, India spends $30 billion on defense, and just increased the defense budget by 32% last year.

Poverty:

Population living under $1.25 a day - India: 41.6% Pakistan: 22.6% Source: UNDP

Population living under $2 a day - India: 76%, Pakistan: 60% Source: UNDP

Underweight Children Under Five (in percent) Pakistan 38% India 46% Source: UNICEF

Life expectancy at birth (years), 2007 India: 63.4 Pakistan: 66.2 Source: HDR2009

Education:

Youth (15–24 years) literacy rate, 2000 to 2007, male Pakistan: 80% India 87% Source: UNICEF

Youth (15–24 years) literacy rate, 2000 to 2007, female Pakistan 60% India 77% Source: UNICEF

Economics:

GDP per capita (US$), 2008 Pak:$1000-1022 India $1017-1100

Child Protection:

Child marriage under 15-years ; 1998–2007, total Pakistan - 32% India - 47% Source: UNICEF

Under-5 mortality rate per 1000 live births (2007), Value Pakistan - 90 India 72 Source: UNICEF

Haq's Musings: Food, Clothing and Shelter in India and Pakistan

You rubbish Yadger Zaveri’s Article in The Express Tribune for the simple that it exposes the true conditions in Pakistan. Please correspond with him and let us know of his reaction!

BTW : The Express Tribune is connected to the Internationally respected Publication "The International Herald Tribune" and not some street rag. So please give Mr. Zaveri and The Express Tribune the respect they very well deserve!

You mention about India’s Defence Budget of US$ 30 Billion but do not mention Pakistan’s Defence Budget of USD 8 Billion which Pakistan’s Defence Secretary Lt-Gen (retd) Syed Athar Ali seemingly finds insufficient.

Some Comparisons of India and Pakistan :

- Economy : Indian Economy is over Seven Times that of Pakistan

- Coast Line : Seven Times that of Pakistan

- Air Space : Both for Coast Line and Land Borders : 5 to 6 Times that of Pakistan

- E E Z : India 2,305,143 sq. km Pakistan 201,520 sq. km i.e. India’s EEZ is over 11 Times that of Pakistan.

As such India’s Defence Budget should be at Least Seven Times that of Pakistan ALTERNATIVELY Pakistan’s Defence Budget should be at the Most One-Seventh that of India.

Here is the Article in respect of Pakistani Defence Budgetary requirements needing to be “enhanced” :

Falling reserves may harm war on terror

Khawar Ghumman

Friday, 18 Jun, 2010

ISLAMABAD: Defence Secretary Lt-Gen (retd) Syed Athar Ali informed the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) of the National Assembly on Thursday that financial reserves of armed forces were depleting fast because of the ongoing military operations near or along the western border.

He warned that if the funds required were not provided to the military it would be forced to ‘reprioritise’ its options, possibly affecting Pakistan’s cooperation in the war on terror.

The PAC was discussing the accounts of defence services for 2007-08 at a meeting chaired by Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan.

Lt-Gen Ali told the meeting that armed forces’ personnel remained heavily engaged in operations in Malakand division and South Waziristan which required an uninterrupted supply of funds.

“During my recent meeting with US defence secretary, I raised the issue of delays in release of money under the Coalition Support Fund (CSF), telling him that in the absence of necessary support we won’t be able to maintain high level of cooperation,” he said.

After a lot of bickering some funds were finally released under the CSF, he said.

The CSF pertains to expenditures incurred on the troops’ food, clothing, transportation, communications and medical care, besides helicopter operations and repair and maintenance of equipment.

Answering questions, the defence secretary said the armed forces demanded Rs530 billion for the next financial year. However, the government agreed to provide only Rs488 billion, forcing the security establishment to dig into development funds and other reserves set aside for contingencies and emergencies.

At this, Auditor-General Tanvir Ali Agha said it wasn’t possible for the government to meet budgetary estimates proposed by every government department.

“Here come in good financial practices. You people have to readjust your priorities according to the funding available,” he said.

Chaudhry Nisar said the so-called war on terror had been imposed on the poor nation, “turning everything into a mess”.

India is indeed a “Poor” Country but is making economic headway though not as “quickly” as its people aspire. However I am sure that the Indian Economic Engine is well on the path of expansion thereby improving – not as fast as you would like – but surely so that the benefits will permeate down to the common Indian Citizen.

In this respect I would point out to to you that the Indian Automobile Industry MANUFACTURES ANNUALLY TWICE AS MANY UNITS as are Registered in Pakistan. The figures are :

India Manufactured 14,049,830 units in 2009-2010 and 11,172,275 units in 2008-2009

Pakistan’s NUMBER OF MOTOR VEHICLES REGISTERED in 2009 was 6,435,538 Units

Mr. Haq do let us know of the number of Automobile Units Manufactured – not assembled - in Pakistan in the Financial Year ending June 2010.
 
Talking about newspaper articles, here is one I saw recently in the Hindu Business line by Mohan Murti, former Europe Director, CII. It is based on some serious reporting in European newspapers, not based on hearsay or unsupported data like Zaveri's piece:

A few days ago I was in a panel discussion on mergers and acquisitions in Frankfurt, Germany, organised by Euroforum and The Handelsblatt, one of the most prestigious newspapers in German-speaking Europe.

The other panellists were senior officials of two of the largest carmakers and two top insurance companies — all German multinationals operating in India.

The panel discussion was moderated by a professor from the esteemed European Business School. The hall had an audience that exceeded a hundred well-known European CEOs. I was the only Indian.

After the panel discussion, the floor was open for questions. That was when my “moment of truth” turned into an hour of shame, embarrassment — when the participants fired questions and made remarks on their experiences with the evil of corruption in India.

The awkwardness and humiliation I went through reminded of The Moment of Truth, the popular Anglo-American game. The more questions I answered truthfully, the more the questions get tougher. Tougher here means more embarrassing.

European disquiet

Questions ranged from “Is your nation in a coma?”, the corruption in judiciary, the possible impeachment of a judge, the 2G scam and to the money parked illegally in tax havens.

It is a fact that the problem of corruption in India has assumed enormous and embarrassing proportions in recent years, although it has been with us for decades. The questions and the debate that followed in the panel discussion was indicative of the European disquiet. At the end of the Q&A session, I surmised Europeans perceive India to be at one of those junctures where tripping over the precipice cannot be ruled out.

Let me substantiate this further with what the European media has to say in recent days.

In a popular prime-time television discussion in Germany, the panellist, a member of the German Parliament quoting a blog said: “If all the scams of the last five years are added up, they are likely to rival and exceed the British colonial loot of India of about a trillion dollars.”

Banana Republic

One German business daily which wrote an editorial on India said: “India is becoming a Banana Republic instead of being an economic superpower. To get the cut motion designated out, assurances are made to political allays. Special treatment is promised at the expense of the people. So, Ms Mayawati who is Chief Minister of the most densely inhabited state, is calmed when an intelligence agency probe is scrapped. The multi-million dollars fodder scam by another former chief minister wielding enormous power is put in cold storage. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh chairs over this kind of unparalleled loot.”

An article in a French newspaper titled “Playing the Game, Indian Style” wrote: “Investigations into the shadowy financial deals of the Indian cricket league have revealed a web of transactions across tax havens like Switzerland, the Virgin Islands, Mauritius and Cyprus.” In the same article, the name of one Hassan Ali of Pune is mentioned as operating with his wife a one-billion-dollar illegal Swiss account with “sanction of the Indian regime”.

A third story narrated in the damaging article is that of the former chief minister of Jharkhand, Madhu Koda, who was reported to have funds in various tax havens that were partly used to buy mines in Liberia. “Unfortunately, the Indian public do not know the status of that enquiry,” the article concluded.

“In the nastiest business scam in Indian records (Satyam) the government adroitly covered up the political aspects of the swindle — predominantly involving real estate,” wrote an Austrian newspaper. “If the Indian Prime Minister knows nothing about these scandals, he is ignorant of ground realities and does not deserve to be Prime Minister. If he does, is he a collaborator in crime?”

The Telegraph of the UK reported the 2G scam saying: “Naturally, India's elephantine legal system will ensure culpability, is delayed.”

Blinded by wealth

This seems true. In the European mind, caricature of a typical Indian encompasses qualities of falsification, telling lies, being fraudulent, dishonest, corrupt, arrogant, boastful, speaking loudly and bothering others in public places or, while travelling, swindling when the slightest of opportunity arises and spreading rumours about others. The list is truly incessant.

My father, who is 81 years old, is utterly frustrated, shocked and disgruntled with whatever is happening and said in a recent discussion that our country's motto should truly be Asatyameva Jayete.

Europeans believe that Indian leaders in politics and business are so blissfully blinded by the new, sometimes ill-gotten, wealth and deceit that they are living in defiance, insolence and denial to comprehend that the day will come, sooner than later, when the have-nots would hit the streets.

In a way, it seems to have already started with the monstrous and grotesque acts of the Maoists. And, when that rot occurs, not one political turncoat will escape being lynched.

The drumbeats for these rebellions are going to get louder and louder as our leaders refuse to listen to the voices of the people. Eventually, it will lead to a revolution that will spill to streets across the whole of India, I fear.

Perhaps we are the architects of our own misfortune. It is our sab chalta hai (everything goes) attitude that has allowed people to mislead us with impunity. No wonder Aesop said. “We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to high office.”

The Hindu Business Line : Is the nation in a coma?
 
Talking about newspaper articles, here is one I saw recently in the Hindu Business line by Mohan Murti, former Europe Director, CII. It is based on some serious reporting in European newspapers, not based on hearsay or unsupported data like Zaveri's piece:

A few days ago I was in a panel discussion on mergers and acquisitions in Frankfurt, Germany, organised by Euroforum and The Handelsblatt, one of the most prestigious newspapers in German-speaking Europe.

The other panellists were senior officials of two of the largest carmakers and two top insurance companies — all German multinationals operating in India.

The panel discussion was moderated by a professor from the esteemed European Business School. The hall had an audience that exceeded a hundred well-known European CEOs. I was the only Indian.

After the panel discussion, the floor was open for questions. That was when my “moment of truth” turned into an hour of shame, embarrassment — when the participants fired questions and made remarks on their experiences with the evil of corruption in India.

The awkwardness and humiliation I went through reminded of The Moment of Truth, the popular Anglo-American game. The more questions I answered truthfully, the more the questions get tougher. Tougher here means more embarrassing.

European disquiet

Questions ranged from “Is your nation in a coma?”, the corruption in judiciary, the possible impeachment of a judge, the 2G scam and to the money parked illegally in tax havens.

It is a fact that the problem of corruption in India has assumed enormous and embarrassing proportions in recent years, although it has been with us for decades. The questions and the debate that followed in the panel discussion was indicative of the European disquiet. At the end of the Q&A session, I surmised Europeans perceive India to be at one of those junctures where tripping over the precipice cannot be ruled out.

Let me substantiate this further with what the European media has to say in recent days.

In a popular prime-time television discussion in Germany, the panellist, a member of the German Parliament quoting a blog said: “If all the scams of the last five years are added up, they are likely to rival and exceed the British colonial loot of India of about a trillion dollars.”

Banana Republic

One German business daily which wrote an editorial on India said: “India is becoming a Banana Republic instead of being an economic superpower. To get the cut motion designated out, assurances are made to political allays. Special treatment is promised at the expense of the people. So, Ms Mayawati who is Chief Minister of the most densely inhabited state, is calmed when an intelligence agency probe is scrapped. The multi-million dollars fodder scam by another former chief minister wielding enormous power is put in cold storage. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh chairs over this kind of unparalleled loot.”

An article in a French newspaper titled “Playing the Game, Indian Style” wrote: “Investigations into the shadowy financial deals of the Indian cricket league have revealed a web of transactions across tax havens like Switzerland, the Virgin Islands, Mauritius and Cyprus.” In the same article, the name of one Hassan Ali of Pune is mentioned as operating with his wife a one-billion-dollar illegal Swiss account with “sanction of the Indian regime”.

A third story narrated in the damaging article is that of the former chief minister of Jharkhand, Madhu Koda, who was reported to have funds in various tax havens that were partly used to buy mines in Liberia. “Unfortunately, the Indian public do not know the status of that enquiry,” the article concluded.

“In the nastiest business scam in Indian records (Satyam) the government adroitly covered up the political aspects of the swindle — predominantly involving real estate,” wrote an Austrian newspaper. “If the Indian Prime Minister knows nothing about these scandals, he is ignorant of ground realities and does not deserve to be Prime Minister. If he does, is he a collaborator in crime?”

The Telegraph of the UK reported the 2G scam saying: “Naturally, India's elephantine legal system will ensure culpability, is delayed.”

Blinded by wealth

This seems true. In the European mind, caricature of a typical Indian encompasses qualities of falsification, telling lies, being fraudulent, dishonest, corrupt, arrogant, boastful, speaking loudly and bothering others in public places or, while travelling, swindling when the slightest of opportunity arises and spreading rumours about others. The list is truly incessant.

My father, who is 81 years old, is utterly frustrated, shocked and disgruntled with whatever is happening and said in a recent discussion that our country's motto should truly be Asatyameva Jayete.

Europeans believe that Indian leaders in politics and business are so blissfully blinded by the new, sometimes ill-gotten, wealth and deceit that they are living in defiance, insolence and denial to comprehend that the day will come, sooner than later, when the have-nots would hit the streets.

In a way, it seems to have already started with the monstrous and grotesque acts of the Maoists. And, when that rot occurs, not one political turncoat will escape being lynched.

The drumbeats for these rebellions are going to get louder and louder as our leaders refuse to listen to the voices of the people. Eventually, it will lead to a revolution that will spill to streets across the whole of India, I fear.

Perhaps we are the architects of our own misfortune. It is our sab chalta hai (everything goes) attitude that has allowed people to mislead us with impunity. No wonder Aesop said. “We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to high office.”

The Hindu Business Line : Is the nation in a coma?

One does not dispute the above Article.

I repeat the last portion from my previous post and now request you to please answer my Question therein :

In this respect I would point out to to you that the Indian Automobile Industry MANUFACTURES ANNUALLY TWICE AS MANY UNITS as are Registered in Pakistan. The figures are :

India Manufactured 14,049,830 units in 2009-2010 and 11,172,275 units in 2008-2009

Pakistan’s NUMBER OF MOTOR VEHICLES REGISTERED in 2009 was 6,435,538 Units

Mr. Haq do let us know of the number of Automobile Units Manufactured – not assembled - in Pakistan in the Financial Year ending June 2010.

Also please justify Pakistan's Defence Budget being Over One Fourth that of India when the Pakistani Economy is One-Seventh of India and that such Heavy Defence spending does not adversely affect Poverty in Pakistan.
 
Only those unable to afford two meals a day in India are defined as poor...as if humans have no other basic needs such as clothing, housing, sanitation, etc.

India's official poverty measure has long been based solely upon the ability to purchase a minimum recommended daily diet of 2,400 kilocalories (kcal) in rural areas where about 70 percent of people live, and 2,100 kcal in urban areas. Rural areas usually have higher kcal requirements because of greater physical activity among rural residents. The National Planning Commission, which is responsible for the estimate, currently estimates that a monthly income of about Rs. 356 (about US$7.74) per person is needed to provide the required diet in rural areas and Rs. 539 in urban areas. Factors such as housing, health care, and transportation are not taken into account in the poverty estimates, according to demographers Carl Haub and O.P Sharma.

World Bank estimates are used for comparative purposes. The World Bank estimates that 41.6 percent of India's population% of (vs 22 percent Pakistanis) lives below $1.25 per day and 75.6 percent of Indians live below $2 per day (versus 60% in Pakistan).

Haq's Musings: Grinding Poverty in Resurgent India

What Is Poverty, Really? The Case of India - Population Reference Bureau

The belief in change

Urban/urbane

Friday, June 18, 2010
Ahmad Rafay Alam

The Economic Survey 2009-2010 is available and online for all to access. It paints a startling picture of this Islamic Republic and presents ground realities that cannot be ignored. And if one cares to compare what it says with the recent budget, the mismatch between what people need and what the government has proposed to meet those needs reveals itself in sharp relief.

At almost 170 million (officially), Pakistan is the world's sixth most populous country. With a population growth rate of 2.1 per cent (the highest amongst the nine other countries compared with, including the SAARC countries, China, Malaysia, the Philippines, Thailand and Indonesia), our population is expected to reach some 300 million by 2050. For those young enough to expect to live so long, pause for a second and consider: there will be twice as many Pakistanis as they are now. If you think the government can barely handle the existing problems, well, double the problems and see if the government has any chance.

As things stand, nearly 62 per cent of the population lives in what are categorised as rural areas (conversely, over 35 per cent of the population lives in cities, making the Islamic Republic the most urbanised country in South Asia). The large rural population is primarily engaged in the agriculture sector, which employs 45 per cent of the workforce. Over half of this work is engaged in livestock and, even though our crop productivity is less than China, India, Brazil and the USA, 21 per cent of the country's GDP comes from the agriculture.

That said, the Agriculture chapter of the Economic Survey states that "without major investments, it is unclear how Pakistan will tackle the emerging challenges such as declining water availability and climate change." Pakistan is already a water-stressed country, and with our population expected to double in the next forty years, the existing per capita water resources will be halved at the very least. Climate change means, eventually, a decrease in glacial melt (which forms over 90 per cent of Pakistan's water resources) and heralds a food security crisis.

Now go and check the budgets for investments or programmes to expand water resources. Mangla Dam is being raised, as are the Gomal Zam and Satpara Dam. According to our federal finance minister, these should be completed in 2010-2011. And the Daimir-Bhasha Dam, which is to be launched as a mega project in the coming financial year, will have a storage capacity of 6,450 MAF. Of course, there is no law, policy or political will dictating that we save or conserve water resources. All efforts are being put into increasing water storage for food production. Meanwhile, as news reports indicate that most of the water in Lahore contains arsenic and the Economic Survey itself states that every other Pakistani in hospital today is there because of contaminated drinking water. Meanwhile, the sahib log keep on washing their cars with drinking water and the faithful perform wu'zu five times a day.

Our health indicators (life expectancy 66.5 years; infant mortality of 65.1 per 1000 and child mortality under 5 years of 95.2 per 1000 are the highest amongst the nine other countries surveyed (i.e not the world) and, in any case, scandalously shocking.

Now go check the budgets to examine what sort of money the federal and provincial governments are setting aside for the healthcare of its citizens and compare it with the 17 per cent increase in the defence budget (this does not represent the hidden allocations for salaries and pensions made to the military under the "General Public Services" category). What use is it, I ask, to spend money protecting the Fortress of Islam when its inhabitants are literally wasting away because of dirty drinking water and a lack of healthcare resources.

Poverty in Pakistan is defined by calorie intake. The cost of 2350 calories per day is quantified and this, along with some other inputs, gives one where the poverty line is drawn. In other words, poverty is not about not having money; it's about not having enough money to buy food. The Economic Survey tries to obfuscate what the poverty rate in Pakistan is. This is because of an unresolved tussle between the ministry of finance and the Planning Commission. But, depending on who you ask, anywhere between 20 to 35 per cent of Pakistanis live below the poverty line. But regardless where this line is drawn, the Economic Survey is clear on one thing: it states that simply "Accelerating economic growth…is not sufficient to bring down poverty levels."

With the population expected to double and with urbanisation set to rise to well over 50 per cent, what we will see happening is the rise of instances of urban poverty. This is an entirely new problem. Currently, poverty is thought of as a rural phenomenon that can be worked on by – and here's the rub – accelerating economic growth. It's essentially a development issue. Urban poverty, on the other hand, will not be a development issue. It will be a health issue.

With most of the people in Pakistan expected to live in cities, there will be huge pressures on safe housing, clean and efficient sewage and sanitation infrastructure, healthcare facilities, job opportunities and recreational spaces. Without these facilities, the issue most pressing will be the effect the water, air and noise pollution will have on the incomes of people. If an urban worker loses a week a month to illness, that's a quarter of his wages lost (with the remainder spent on medicine). At some point, the government must appreciate that cleaning up drinking water isn't merely something the Environment Department should be doing (though, for their part, they don't have National Environmental Quality Standards to enforce. These standards are meant to set by the Pakistan Environment Protection Council, which has met only once since this government was formed). Clean drinking water will actually reduce the incidents of urban illness and will translate into more income for families.

Now go and check the budgets to see what the federal and provincial governments are planning to do about this.

It's becoming painfully clear that the issues we face on a day-to-day basis are linked not just to development but to the state of the environment and the effect of climate change as well. However, it seems that the government has not made this connection. Most debate still revolves around things like the VAT and security. No doubt these things are important (especially the VAT, because reform has to start somewhere), but they cannot be looked at in isolation from the existential problems faced by Pakistanis. Nowhere is the discussion, let alone budget allocation, on how to prioritise the mainstream environmental concerns into budget discussions. The Economic Survey's chapter on the Environment paints a bleak picture of what's going on in Pakistan, yet the list of the federal government's programmes to combat these challenges is negligible (having the Guinness Record for the most number of trees planted in a day is not something a federal government should consider a landmark achievement).

In the chapter on Poverty, the Survey candidly states: "Periods of growth that have occurred at periods of macro-economic stability do not tend to produce desired outcomes regards poverty." It is time for our government and the politicians in it to understand that Pakistan's current and future problems can't be solved by existing thinking. We've got to start thinking outside the box. Of course, the great challenge here is to start believing that we have the ability and capacity to undertake this thinking and bring the change. But then again, it's the job of the leaders to give their people that confidence.

The writer is an advocate of the high court and a member of the adjunct faculty at LUMS. He has an interest in urban planning. Email: ralam@nexlinx.net.pk
 
A sad little thread...started by an author with an unhealthy fixation with India though he is not from there and retaliation by a bunch of Indians pointing out how Pakistan is worse than India.

:hitwall:
 
A sad little thread...started by an author with an unhealthy fixation with India though he is not from there and retaliation by a bunch of Indians pointing out how Pakistan is worse than India.

:hitwall:

Unhealthy fixation? What is unhealthy about drawing attention to the hungry and the poor who get little or no attention? Is it too uncomfortable for you?

Should we ignore and leave the poor and hungry to themselves?

Unless well-fed people are shamed into action, nothing will change.

The best way is to recognize the seriousness of the problem and build pressure on Indian and Pakistani governments to invest in South Asia's children.

The next best thing is to volunteer for organizations helping the poor and the hungry.

At a minimum, such posts should send us all to the websites like Akshaya Patra or Edhi Foundation to donate and help improve the situation.

Another way is to go to places like kiva.org and lend small amounts to those trying to improve their lives.
 
India was under foreign occupation for long time. Happy that we have made progress in last 60 yrs.

Look at other colonized countries, they have changed their national language(Brazil, Maxico etc).
India and pakistan should be happy that we still have identity even after long foreign occupation.
 
Unhealthy fixation? What is unhealthy about drawing attention to the hungry and the poor who get little or no attention? Is it too uncomfortable for you?

Should we ignore and leave the poor and hungry to themselves?

Unless well-fed people are shamed into action, nothing will change.

The best way is to recognize the seriousness of the problem and build pressure on Indian and Pakistani governments to invest in South Asia's children.

The next best thing is to volunteer for organizations helping the poor and the hungry.

At a minimum, such posts should send us all to the websites like Akshaya Patra or Edhi Foundation to donate and help improve the situation.

Another way is to go to places like kiva.org and lend small amounts to those trying to improve their lives.


You are from Pakistan..so you should be trying to make Pakistan better not trying to show how bad India is. India's problems are for Indians,it is not your business.(The same with the Indians here posting articles about how bad Pakistan is..pretty juvenile)
 
You are from Pakistan..so you should be trying to make Pakistan better not trying to show how bad India is. India's problems are for Indians,it is not your business.(The same with the Indians here posting articles about how bad Pakistan is..pretty juvenile)

This is just your opinion. Going by your logic, no Indian or non-Pakistan should be on this site expressing their opinions because it has the word Pakistan in it.

It's like saying no Americans or Europeans should ever talk about other nations outside their regions. It's just not going to happen in this globalized world. After all, it's called world wide web for a reason...it knows no national boundaries and allows people to share their thoughts about any subject with each other, including the problems they see.
 
This is just your opinion. Going by your logic, no Indian or non-Pakistan should be on this site expressing their opinions because it has the word Pakistan in it.

It's like saying no Americans or Europeans should ever talk about other nations outside their regions. It's just not going to happen in this globalized world. After all, it's called world wide web for a reason...it knows no national boundaries and allows people to share their thoughts about any subject with each other, including the problems they see.

I was bemused by Riaz's arguments. So, I ended up browsing a bit on what Indian government programs are out there to help the poor and attain social justice. India's situation is tricky. But this is what I found:

1. There seems to be a Rural employment guarantee Act, which seems to have provided jobs and payment to rural employees as guaranteed. The Act also seems to have judicial mechanisms to address payment redressals.
2. There is a Right to Information Act (RTI INDIA - RTI INDIA: Right to Information Community Portal), which Indian citizens have been using to expose corruption. This Act seems robust and seems to make the government more transparent. See the website I quoted for how Indian citizens are using this Act. I wonder if there is an Act like this in Pakistan or Bangladesh. If they dont, they need to immediately frame this Act.
3. The Indian toilet situation seems to be related more to a cultural aversion to use toilets rather than a financial one. The study I read seems to say that because of the extremely low labor costs, building a toilet and evacuating it periodically is not all that expensive and is easily affordable by the poor class. Yet, there is an aversion to use toilets.
4. India seems to have a proliferation of NGOs and they are fairly active. Many of the CEOs of these NGOs seem to be Fulbright Scholars from the US. So, they do have a motivated and talented team. These NGOs seem to be responsible for things like making the Supreme Court Chief Justices declare their personal assets and wealth - a key requirement for transparent justice.
5. I also discovered that the ADB actually raises money in Indian financial markets, among other markets, for its operations. Is India exercising a higher authority over this organization in terms of where the funds go? If they dont, Indians need to start clamoring for this.
6. India also has the only derivatives based stock market in the entire region. Not even china has this. This is definitely good for building efficient capital markets in India. They also have a robust government bond market, which means the Indian government can finance a great amount of its deficit locally in Indian rupees, which makes the excess military spending rather moot. It is not about the amount of money, but is about keeping the costs of using that money low.
7. Micro loan market - Indian banks seem to be active in this area, which is good for the poor as they dont have to depend on loan sharks.
8. They seem to have an agressive alternate energy program, with generation capacity ranked 5th in the world.
9. India's retail markets seem to be catching up with Wal Mart and others forming partnerships for retail chains. Investment here only means more quality and safer food supply. I also like the concept of milk cooperatives in India. I believe some businesses should be at a cooperative level and not handled by global corporations.
10. Solar power is getting cheaper every day and days are not far off when a large number of Indian households will solve some of their energy problems by installing solar panels on the roofs of their houses. Some Indian states seem to have electrified all their villages through this route.

No time to do more research. But from a citizen's empowerment angle and general public policy, I think that India is going in the right direction. The government is supplying its citizens tools to solve their problems rather than handing out free money. They are saying "work, if you want money and if you have corruption issues, use the RTI Act for redressal". Seems a nice strategy to address people's issues.

Chasing money stashed in global tax havens is a problem both the US and India face I guess. UBS agreed to cooperate with the US in supplying a list of US Tax evaders. Is there any pressure on Indian government to seek similar access? Indians please take note.
 
I was bemused by Riaz's arguments. So, I ended up browsing a bit on what Indian government programs are out there to help the poor and attain social justice. India's situation is tricky. But this is what I found:

1. There seems to be a Rural employment guarantee Act, which seems to have provided jobs and payment to rural employees as guaranteed. The Act also seems to have judicial mechanisms to address payment redressals.
2. There is a Right to Information Act (RTI INDIA - RTI INDIA: Right to Information Community Portal), which Indian citizens have been using to expose corruption. This Act seems robust and seems to make the government more transparent. See the website I quoted for how Indian citizens are using this Act. I wonder if there is an Act like this in Pakistan or Bangladesh. If they dont, they need to immediately frame this Act.
3. The Indian toilet situation seems to be related more to a cultural aversion to use toilets rather than a financial one. The study I read seems to say that because of the extremely low labor costs, building a toilet and evacuating it periodically is not all that expensive and is easily affordable by the poor class. Yet, there is an aversion to use toilets.
4. India seems to have a proliferation of NGOs and they are fairly active. Many of the CEOs of these NGOs seem to be Fulbright Scholars from the US. So, they do have a motivated and talented team. These NGOs seem to be responsible for things like making the Supreme Court Chief Justices declare their personal assets and wealth - a key requirement for transparent justice.
5. I also discovered that the ADB actually raises money in Indian financial markets, among other markets, for its operations. Is India exercising a higher authority over this organization in terms of where the funds go? If they dont, Indians need to start clamoring for this.
6. India also has the only derivatives based stock market in the entire region. Not even china has this. This is definitely good for building efficient capital markets in India. They also have a robust government bond market, which means the Indian government can finance a great amount of its deficit locally in Indian rupees, which makes the excess military spending rather moot. It is not about the amount of money, but is about keeping the costs of using that money low.
7. Micro loan market - Indian banks seem to be active in this area, which is good for the poor as they dont have to depend on loan sharks.
8. They seem to have an agressive alternate energy program, with generation capacity ranked 5th in the world.
9. India's retail markets seem to be catching up with Wal Mart and others forming partnerships for retail chains. Investment here only means more quality and safer food supply. I also like the concept of milk cooperatives in India. I believe some businesses should be at a cooperative level and not handled by global corporations.
10. Solar power is getting cheaper every day and days are not far off when a large number of Indian households will solve some of their energy problems by installing solar panels on the roofs of their houses. Some Indian states seem to have electrified all their villages through this route.

No time to do more research. But from a citizen's empowerment angle and general public policy, I think that India is going in the right direction. The government is supplying its citizens tools to solve their problems rather than handing out free money. They are saying "work, if you want money and if you have corruption issues, use the RTI Act for redressal". Seems a nice strategy to address people's issues.

Chasing money stashed in global tax havens is a problem both the US and India face I guess. UBS agreed to cooperate with the US in supplying a list of US Tax evaders. Is there any pressure on Indian government to seek similar access? Indians please take note.

I think there are some serious steps the top Indian leadership is taking to improve the situation. Unfortunately , the results are lacking for a variety of reasons, including widespread corruption and incompetence in government.

Here is UNICEF's assessment of the situation:

India has failed to use a period of high economic growth to lift tens of millions of people out of poverty, falling far short of China's record in protecting its population from the ravages of chronic hunger, United Nations officials said on Tuesday.

Unicef, the UN's child development agency, said India, Asia's third largest economy, had not followed the example of other regional economies such as China, South Korea and Singapore in investing in its people during an economic boom. It said this failure spelled trouble as the global economy deteriorated, while volatile fuel and food prices had already deepened deprivation over the past two years.

The stinging criticism of India's performance comes only two weeks after the Congress party-led alliance was overwhelmingly voted back into office. Its leaders had campaigned strongly on their achievement of raising India's economic growth to 9 per cent and boosting rural welfare.

An unfavourable comparison with Beijing's development record will rile New Delhi. Manmohan Singh, India's prime minister, has argued that the country's economic development is more durable than that of China because it is forged in a democracy rather than by a one-party state.

Unicef attacks India's record on poverty
 
Originally Posted by RollingStones
Chasing money stashed in global tax havens is a problem both the US and India face I guess. UBS agreed to cooperate with the US in supplying a list of US Tax evaders. Is there any pressure on Indian government to seek similar access? Indians please take note.


Under the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA), all American companies are required to provide details of illegal payments made in foreign countries.

Paxar Corporation, a New York listed company recently acquired by Avery, acknowledged paying $30,000 to bribe Pakistani customs officials in 2008 through its local customs broker. Avery, a California-based company, manufactures and markets various office products in several dozen countries around the world.

In a settlement with the SEC, Avery has agreed to pay over $300,000 in fines, and accepted SEC's cease-and-desist order to stop its corrupt practices.

Here is a list of FCPA violations involving Indian entities reported to the Indian Prime Minister by India's US Ambassador Meera Shanker in Washington:

* On January 9, 2009, Mario Covino of Control Companies allegedly pleaded guilty to making illegal payments of over $ 1 million to employees of state-owned entities, including the Maharashtra State Electricity Board.

* On Feb 14, 2008, Westinghouse Air Brake Technologies Corporation’s Indian subsidiary, Pioneer Friction Ltd, settled civil charges in connection with improper payments to employees of Indian Railways. The $137,400-payment was made between 2001 and 2005.

* Subsidiaries of York International Corporation allegedly made improper payments of over $ 7.5 million to secure orders in various countries, including India. Payments were made from 2001 to 2006.

* C Srinivasan, a former president of A T Kearney India Ltd, allegedly made improper payments of $720,000 to senior employees of two partially state owned enterprises in India between 2001 and 2003.

* Textron’s subsidiaries allegedly made improper payments to secure contracts in various countries including India in the 2001-2005 period.

* Dow Chemicals subsidiary, DE-Nocil Crop Protection Ltd, allegedly made improper payments to various officials, including to an official in Central Insecticides Board. Pride International too, may have made third-party payments.

In spite of the well-publicized actions of the US government under FCPA, there appears to have been no government investigations ordered or actions taken against the corrupt officials on the receiving end of the reported bribes from the US companies in India and Pakistan.

Haq's Musings: Inaction Against Corruption in South Asia
 
proper family planning in the subcontinent would be a first good step
 

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