What's new

Ummah Yearnings

It does provide a Pakistani view and Indian view is diametrically opposite about the conversions and the reasons for the same.

That is a problem. I believe this kind of history glosses over what is uncomfortable and tries to find scapegoats for what happened.

Nowhere have people given up an established belief system peacefully to accept an alien system en masse and peacefully. They always try to reform what is not working.

The Europeans suffered through centuries of Church atrocities and finally found a system that worked for them.

The same is true even for Muslims. They are struggling with internal contradictions and violence and they are trying to find what can work for them. We see it happening on this forum itself.

Looking dispassionately at the history of the Islamic expansion from the Maghreb to Pakistan would give a clue as to what really happened. Not reading one sided account of the victors.

I agree that the spread of religion is always a complex matter, and includes a variety of ways from outright coercion to convenience to genuine change of heart. This is true of Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc....

At one extreme you have the situation where the royalty and ruling classes convert first. The conversion filters down because there is overt or covert favoritism from the top down for people of the royal faith.

At the other end, you have the situation where society has become so rigidly stratified that the lower classes see no way up, and the new religion offers liberation from the societal straitjacket.

And then, of course, you have the conversions through force, money, reason, etc.

Coming to the discussion here, my thought is that some people in Pakistan reject anything to do with Hinduism because of the pain of 1947. I believe it is time to put that behind us and, when we do so, Pakistan will be able to appreciate the full history of the region.
 
.
Remember that time when you told me that Jinnah was playing at the hands of the British when he created Pakistan.

As for the numbers, I kid, I kid, you are my friend now.

In fact, no. I don't remember ever saying that to you.

I remember discussing whether creation of Pakistan was a religious or cultural phenomenon. This aspect of playing into British hands, I don't remember discussing it.
 
.
In fact, no. I don't remember ever saying that to you.

I remember discussing whether creation of Pakistan was a religious or cultural phenomenon. This aspect of playing into British hands, I don't remember discussing it.

Not this recent convo, that was an old one, a couple of months back, you told me that it was a British ploy which the Muslim League was playing into.

The other guy, Rig Vedic was more upfront with his argument though.
 
.
Your claim is weak and we as a people of this land strongly identify it as a precursor to our culture.

then why dont u follow it .. how about replacing Allah , Muhammad with pashupati ( proto shiva) etc,..
 
.
then why dont u follow it .. how about replacing Allah , Muhammad with pashupati ( proto shiva) etc,..

No, religion is a personal matter, nothing to do with your culture or the state.

You can continue to practice whatever religion while also admiring your past culture.
 
.
No, religion is a personal matter, nothing to do with your culture or the state.

You can continue to practice whatever religion while also admiring your past culture.

your argument doesn't apply for Islam Islam is a whole deen that is a whole way of life and it doesn't believe in the concept of personal life which west have and also Islam Don't admire your past if it is of Kufr
 
.
your argument doesn't apply for Islam Islam is a whole deen that is a whole way of life and it doesn't believe in the concept of personal life which west have and also Islam Don't admire your past if it is of Kufr

Way of life, not way of politics, regarding the past, Barelvi Islam is based upon traditions and beliefs of the past.

So is Islam, here is an interesting article.

Myths – Our Common Asset

The art of story-telling is perhaps as old as the human language itself. It almost seems that humans developed language so that stories can be told! Some myths were created around historical events and landmarks while others to explain natural phenomena or a transcendental world-view. There are some parables that celebrate loyalty, honor and there are others which denounce greed and mendacity. Some myths are woven simply for entertainment and to reflect the emotions and aspirations of the human spirit. However, all myths have one thing in common: They conform to the geographical and cultural context of their audience.

Therefore, when the body parts of Osiris are dispersed, they land around Nile; those of Sati, get distributed in the subcontinent. Similarly, after the Great Deluge, the vessel of Utnapishtim lands on Mt. Nisir, while that of Manus lands on Mt. Meru, and of course Noah’s Ark lands on Mt. Ararat. Cultural signatures are found even in identical myths such as the creation myth of Bible. Adam eats an apple in the West, in Iran he reaches for a pomegranate, but when the story reaches India, it is the grain of wheat that does him in.

All over the world, even in isolated cultures such as Australian aborigines, people have stories and myths born of that land. It is in these myths that humanity takes solace or derives wisdom. While myths have been around well before the written language, the earliest written myth known to the world is the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Like all other stories, there are many versions of the story of Gilgamesh, but what attracts me the most is that later mythologies have borrowed fragments of this epic, an interesting proof that stories travelled fast, even in ancient times. There are conniving gods and goddesses and a hideous underworld as in Greek mythology, there are quests for immortality as in Persian fairly tales and Hindu myth of Amrita, and there is the story of the Great Deluge as in Hindu and Biblical mythologies. The epic, while a window to the Mesopotamian society at that time, is stricken with myths that explain phenomena such as why snake sheds his skin. This epic also introduces the cosmic bull to be used by later myths in various roles. The same bull which makes it to the clay seals of Moenjo Daro and in the Phoenician letter ‘a’.

Similar to Ice Age, Iron Age and Bronze Age, there seems to be an Age of Mythology. Confining our conversation to Eurasia, mythologies seem to have thrived in various places, almost simultaneously, and travelled to other areas and adopted everywhere with local flavors, characters, places and technology. Even though a lot of stories shared a common plot, different emphasis was given to different stories based on the needs and taste of a particular culture. This is because mythologies, though fabricated for various purposes, are always tailored for their audience. Moses would never be caught freeing the Trojans and Rama wouldn’t dream of fighting Ravana on the peak of Mt. Sanai! The characters, places and the entire mise-en-scène needs to conform to the world-view of the immediate audience. Myths, though born of the human experience, have the power to provide its audience the ‘immediacy of experience’ of supernatural realms.

Take for example Biblical mythology. Told and retold to the Semitic people of Arabia, the initial stories are mostly about the warring Semitic tribes, their survival and adventures. The god of these people in Old-Testament is clearly one among many legitimate competing gods of rival tribes. However this particular god YHWH demands utmost obedience from its people in order to guarantee their survival. Some of his commands (such as burning every man, women, fetus, every tree, shrub and cattle, in the battle of Jericho) are so outrageous that it challenges even the moral values of these prehistoric tribes. These stories are loosely based on historical events, part myth, part history, part genealogy. However when the nomadic culture of Semites came in contact with civilized population of Mesopotamia, Egypt and Persia…some exchanges were bound to take place.

While the Semitic people were warring among themselves, somewhere in Persia a prophet named Zoroaster was preaching duality, a tale of cosmic struggle between two equal and opposite powers, the good Ahura Mazda and the evil Ahriman. Later a colorful mythology was spun around this world-view. This epic is so sensational; it pales the mighty battle between Rama and Ravana in exaggerations and fantastical maneuvers. There is a myriad of characters as if coming out of Murasaki’s novel one after the other, helpers of Ahura Mazda and Ahriman; the Asuras and Daevas. There are both allegorical and physical strata in which various creations dwell; this scheme of multiple layers and the time span of this cosmic battle render Tolkein’s work juvenile. The magnificence of theatrics related to this mythology is evident in the Greek accounts of the Zoroastrian priests ‘Magi’, the root of the very word ‘magic’.

The impact of Persian mythology is not only seen in Shahnameh, Qissa Chahar Dervesh, Alif Lailah and Daastane Amir Hamza, it is quite present in the biblical and Islamic mythology. The Ahriman takes the garb of Lucifer and even though Quran never talks about the helpers of Satan, to an Indian Muslim ‘shaitan ke cheelay’ is a common term. Similarly helpers of Ahura Mazdah fit well with angels of Allah. The concept of heaven and hell and a judgment day is very much Zoroastrian as well. There is the good force, the bad force and the (ugly?) ‘Free Will’ of humans, that chooses between the two. Because the humans possess the free will to choose, they must be rewarded for good choices and punished for bad ones. This is very different from (say) the Hindu concept of a self-sustaining philosophy based on Karma and Dharma, of recycling the souls until they have achieved enough wisdom to reunite with the creator Brahma.

The Old-Testament does not mention heaven and hell or Judgment Day. Later Zoroastrian influence brought these concepts in Christianity which Islam solidified into concrete beliefs in heaven and hell with detailed descriptions of each, and even prescribed a set path for successfully avoiding hell and acquiring heaven. The concept of ‘bridge of Siraat’ is the Zoroastrian myth of the Cinvat Bridge which is stretched between the mountain tops leading from this world to heaven with hell in the chasm below. The Semitic world-view was forever changed as they absorbed the black and white of Zoroaster vs. gray of Hindus and the Greeks.

The Hindu Vedas and later mythologies of Ramayana and Mahabharata have many plots borrowed from (or lent to?) neighboring myths. The gambling match in Mahabharata seems to have been inspired by the Egyptian myth of Isis. However all myths are carefully crafted and meticulously worded to depict local characters. A distinct practice of meditation, called Yoga, is perfected and practiced at certain times of day in order to seek union with the divine creator Brahma; a practice that Buddhism adopted albeit with a few twists. First they actively spread the teachings of Buddhism to the Far East, second their prostrations deviated from the breathing exercise emphasized in Yoga. These travelling, chanting and prostrating Buddhist Monks with white robes wrapped around their bodies, will eventually catch the attention of the nascent civilization of Mecca, the heartland of Semitic culture in Arabia.

Perhaps of greatest personal interest to me, is the Canaanite high god El, who made his way from Canaan to Hebrew mythology and became so entwined with the Hebrew god YHWH that it was hard to differentiate between the two in Old Testament. El apparently had a lot of help, probably from female deities, because he is also referred to as Ellohim (plural of female Eloah.) El could well have found his way to Arabia in the form of pre-Islamic high-god Allah, the patron of Ka’ba. The fact that Quran scorns ‘kuffar’ for associating (the pre-Islamic version of) Allah with daughters, while preferring sons for themselves, gives us some more clues that El/Allah had a pantheon of female deities/helpers. Another clue is in the use of the Arabic word “allahumma” a variant of Hebrew “Ellohim”. While Ellohim can be broken down in Hebrew, Allahumma cannot be broken down in Arabic, a sure sign of borrowing. Allahumma is frequently called upon in the Hajj rituals and other prayers possibly existing from pre-Islamic customs.

Pre-Islamic Hajj was performed for the pantheon of gods housed in the four walls of Ka’ba. Ka’ba is believed to have housed gods of all cultures including Mesopotamia, Persia, Egypt and India. Mecca, at a crossroads of the ancient international trade, was a cosmopolitan city which welcomed devotees of all religion to feel at home with their personal gods, en route to the perilous caravan trails ahead. At some point the Meccans decided that Buddhist robes, prostrations and chants are a perfect accompaniment to their rituals and so the practice of Hajj flourished with sophisticated rituals, vibrant chants and uniformity of attire, (those who did not afford the robes would perform Hajj without any clothing.)

Digressing here a bit; whenever I mention this connection of Hajj and the Hindu/Buddhist custom of chants, clothing and prostrations, people get upset. I don’t understand this reaction. Surely everyone knows that Hajj rituals have changed little from pre-Islamic version? Surely everyone knows that the pre-Islamic Hajj customs were borrowed from all over the place? Why take offense? I believe it says volumes on the true nature of Islam. Islam is not against local cultural practices, unless they directly contradict any basic values of Islam. Muhammad PBUH kept all the cultural rituals of Hajj, gave them a meaning in the Islamic framework and abandoned nude circumambulations and other customs, to which he had objections. Islam was not born in a cultural vacuum, nor did Allah of Islam send an entire new cultural package with the new religion. Some people get upset at me for mentioning pre-Islamic Allah; they think by that I mean Allah before Islam. When in fact what it really means is Allah as defined by Arabs before Islam. Surely the definition and dominions of gods depends on people who claim to believe in them. Allah did exist in the pre-Islamic pantheon of gods, however his true nature, as revealed by Muhammad PBUH, was not known to Arabs. Allah as defined by Islam is not the same Allah known to pre-Islamic Arabia. Quran explicitly refutes the attributes to the pre-Islamic Allah who apparently had a lot of female helpers (angels) who were his alleged daughters.

Following the characters, plots and context of world mythologies is analogous to peering into a kaleidoscope trying to catch a form. Just when you think you have a grasp on one, it morphs fluidly into another. You can’t trace the beginning or the end; you are simply left with a prevailing knowledge of beauty and wonder. I am unable to understand the efforts of researchers trying to find the dimensions and location of Noah’s Ark in order to prove Bible correct or incorrect. I do not associate adjectives such as true or untrue to the myths, instead I prefer adjectives such as beautiful, powerful and useful; or malicious, odious and pernicious. The entire human community, or kith, is interwoven together not only biologically, genetically, socially and economically but also culturally; it seems that our myths, both unite and divide us at the same time!

Myths are constantly created even in this day and age. There are conspiracy theories around Free Masons, Illuminati and the ever powerful Jewish-American lobby. Some modern myths are in the form of fantasy movies such as Golden Compass and Harry Potter. Another popular genre is of science fiction movies such as Star-Wars and my personal favorite: The Matrix. The art of story-telling has taken on many forms but at the core, myths are still designed to excite the audience and reveal to them the hidden dimensions of their lives. Is a computer program really running our lives? Indeed, it is a very plausible explanation of even the most random acts of nature because randomization is quite programmable…or so I am told.
 
.
In conclusion :-

I guess it will be one extremely difficult mission for Pakistan to move into the concept of Ummah or to kickstart a Caliphate given the various posts by Pakistanis here. Clearly, there is extreme division between Pakistani Muslims themselves. Who will be part of the Ummah? Who will be excluded? Ahmedis regard themselves as staunch Muslims. Other Islamic sects in Pakistan deny that Ahmedis are even Muslims. Shia and Sunni divisions. The divisions itself cannot be reconciled as the general belief is that if I am Sunni etc then any other belief of Islam is totally wrong. The Mullahs generally have their own political objective in Pakistan given that it is a theocratic state. This is evident in the current turmoil within Pakistan. Their take on the Ummah concept may swing against it. My two cents is that Pakistan should focus within and start reviving its rich archeological history. Similar to Egypt. That will promote a new breed of nationalism. An Islamic state proudly preserving and displaying its Vedic history may just pay dividends.
 
.
^^^^^
One of the best post I have seen here.

(skip one post, he snuck it in)
 
. .
Let's not get into a discussion of Muslims rights in India. Certainly they enjoy much freedoms, but there has always been a constituency in India that has never lived down the Muslim invasion of India, and there was every indication that they were eager to settle scores as soon as the British left. In any case, the point is that enough people believed in the need for separation to make it a reality.

I was trying to clarify that that religious persecution was not the reason for creating Pakistan. It doesn't matter what the consituency thinks about the "muslim" invasion. Keeping in mind that it was more ARab, Persian, Mongol, Afghan invasion in reality based on the geopoitical power plays in the region. Infact, in all the 20+ major invasion campaigns into India through present day Pakistan; only three were by a muslim invader and a non-muslim kingdom in present day Pakistan - Mohd. bin Qasim, Mohd. Ghori and Mahmud Ghaznavi. Others were either muslim invaders against local muslim rulers - e.g. Babur invading the Lodhi sultanate in Delhi; non-muslim invading a non-muslim kingdom - Alexander's invasion or even non-muslims invading muslim local rulers like the Mongols under Chengiz Khan invading Afghanistan and parts of present day Pakistan.

Also there was no referendum with adult franchise to decide on the need for Pakistan. This was offered but Jinnah had refused. The elections were done ona very limited franchise that allowed on 7-8% elite of the actual population to vote. Even after this, only in Bengal and Sindh (by a single member) did the Muslim League have a majority. In Punjab and NWFP it did not.

So in reality, we can't really say for sure that had the partition plan be presented as the end resulted and a full fledged referendum held, what would the results be in 1946.


That's the official line, but it is illogical to believe that all this animosity just sprouted out of the blue at the drop of a hat. The hatred had been there all along -- the partition merely gave an outpouring to the innate hostilities.
Well whose official line? animostieis result in violence because of the circumstances. The parition line in Punjab forced the ethinic clensing on religious lines where prior to that there was a strong sense of Punjabi culture. Punjabi soldiers from all religious backgrounds contributed the major majority to the British Indian army and fought all over the world together. Why would the "hostilities" suddently emerge?

Look at another way, currently more muslims are killed in Pakistan than India. There are killings of Balochs or Pasthuns vs Muhajirs or Shia vs Sunnis or Barelvis and Ahmedis. Was there innante hostilities already there that this violence is along expected lines? Or is it because the current circumstances around Pakistan today have created this fracture of society that allows this violence to perpetrated?

Also, it is fashionable to say that the hatred went both says, but the minority always pays the higher price. In the US, the racial animosity between whites and blacks goes both ways, but it is the white majority which is overwhelmingly in power and which has the greater burden to safeguard the rights of other groups.

Possibly, but I was only indicating that both muslims and non-muslims suffered enormously in terms of life and material assets. To say that only muslims suffered or the counter claim that only non-muslims suffered are both incorrect.

Besides there is the case of pre-71 Pakistan where a minority Punjabi force suppressed and extracted a huge toll from the majority Bengalis. Other examples include apartheid S. Africa.


Jinnah's reasoning and justifications were similar to the creation of Israel. He felt that Muslims would have a greater chance of success if they were freed from institutionalized discrimination in India. He tried to get some constitutional guarantees to safeguard Muslim rights but, in the face of Nehru and others, eventually opted for separation.
Yes that is what he thought and the debate on what the guarantees were and what was offered is seperate. But that again proves that religious persecution or preventing practicing of religious activities was not the reason for creation of Pakistan. It was a political argument.


There is world of difference between being a haven for Muslims, which Pakistan was intended to be, and an Islamic theocracy which the Islamists are proposing.

True, and theocracies are not present in Muslim history as such. Infact starting from the Ummayads, there have been no muslim theocracies (i.e. a religious Imam or priest being the head of state) except present day Iran and former Taliban Afghanistan. A Muslim theocracy is a very modern construct that does not gel well with Islamic theology in any case and will not receive traction anyways.

But the problem also exists by those who are not true "Islamists" believers but still try to cynically use Islam for their geopolitical purposes. Gaddafi used Islam as a political tool for example to further their interests although he didn't give a rat's about Islam personally. The same can be seen in the 80s and even now where some people cynically use Jihadi groups for geopolitical ends wethere its the US, Saudis, Iranians or Pakistanis. Islam is just used as a convenient poltical tool. It is this that has to stop. These type of people IMO are even more dangerous.
 
. .
Woah there cowboy, how have the British been able to create so much around the world and not keep their empire going?

Vinod420 over there tells me that Jinnah and the Muslim League were a British creation, hence they created Pakistan, your Islamist buddies agree with this, the Fakir of Ipi called the Muslim League 'a bastion of qadianism'. Then there is your trainee MythBuster who says that Jinnah was a freemason and a British agent, Jinnah being an Agha Khani, a freemason cult and in conjuction with Ahmadi's, another British creation, they created Pakistan.

All these conspiracies, grand stories of agents and freemasons, I thought you would be more factual with your posts. There are people who say the Wahabi's are a British creation, their partnership with the British is known and so are certain incidents where the Sauds and the Wahabi's sat with the westerners plotting against the Ottomon empire. Don't forget the Deobandi's and their first building being initiated by the British.

The British turned out to be masters of creation or is it all just made up because of paranoia, penchant for conspiracies and fear.

As long as you keep getting the cheque from the British government, its all cool.

Yes but T Faz we all know that the British Empire kept going on the basis of buying loyalties... I mean do I have to point out to you that the forefathers of the feudal landlords of Pakistan got their land by doing acts of treason against their own people... I describe the British as masters of division actually... and their history books mention the 1847 struggle for independence as the "Indian Mutiny"... go figure the rest...
 
.
Way of life, not way of politics, regarding the past, Barelvi Islam is based upon traditions and beliefs of the past.

So is Islam, here is an interesting article.

Myths – Our Common Asset

The art of story-telling is perhaps as old as the human language itself. It almost seems that humans developed language so that stories can be told! Some myths were created around historical events and landmarks while others to explain natural phenomena or a transcendental world-view. There are some parables that celebrate loyalty, honor and there are others which denounce greed and mendacity. Some myths are woven simply for entertainment and to reflect the emotions and aspirations of the human spirit. However, all myths have one thing in common: They conform to the geographical and cultural context of their audience.

Therefore, when the body parts of Osiris are dispersed, they land around Nile; those of Sati, get distributed in the subcontinent. Similarly, after the Great Deluge, the vessel of Utnapishtim lands on Mt. Nisir, while that of Manus lands on Mt. Meru, and of course Noah’s Ark lands on Mt. Ararat. Cultural signatures are found even in identical myths such as the creation myth of Bible. Adam eats an apple in the West, in Iran he reaches for a pomegranate, but when the story reaches India, it is the grain of wheat that does him in.

All over the world, even in isolated cultures such as Australian aborigines, people have stories and myths born of that land. It is in these myths that humanity takes solace or derives wisdom. While myths have been around well before the written language, the earliest written myth known to the world is the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Like all other stories, there are many versions of the story of Gilgamesh, but what attracts me the most is that later mythologies have borrowed fragments of this epic, an interesting proof that stories travelled fast, even in ancient times. There are conniving gods and goddesses and a hideous underworld as in Greek mythology, there are quests for immortality as in Persian fairly tales and Hindu myth of Amrita, and there is the story of the Great Deluge as in Hindu and Biblical mythologies. The epic, while a window to the Mesopotamian society at that time, is stricken with myths that explain phenomena such as why snake sheds his skin. This epic also introduces the cosmic bull to be used by later myths in various roles. The same bull which makes it to the clay seals of Moenjo Daro and in the Phoenician letter ‘a’.

Similar to Ice Age, Iron Age and Bronze Age, there seems to be an Age of Mythology. Confining our conversation to Eurasia, mythologies seem to have thrived in various places, almost simultaneously, and travelled to other areas and adopted everywhere with local flavors, characters, places and technology. Even though a lot of stories shared a common plot, different emphasis was given to different stories based on the needs and taste of a particular culture. This is because mythologies, though fabricated for various purposes, are always tailored for their audience. Moses would never be caught freeing the Trojans and Rama wouldn’t dream of fighting Ravana on the peak of Mt. Sanai! The characters, places and the entire mise-en-scène needs to conform to the world-view of the immediate audience. Myths, though born of the human experience, have the power to provide its audience the ‘immediacy of experience’ of supernatural realms.

Take for example Biblical mythology. Told and retold to the Semitic people of Arabia, the initial stories are mostly about the warring Semitic tribes, their survival and adventures. The god of these people in Old-Testament is clearly one among many legitimate competing gods of rival tribes. However this particular god YHWH demands utmost obedience from its people in order to guarantee their survival. Some of his commands (such as burning every man, women, fetus, every tree, shrub and cattle, in the battle of Jericho) are so outrageous that it challenges even the moral values of these prehistoric tribes. These stories are loosely based on historical events, part myth, part history, part genealogy. However when the nomadic culture of Semites came in contact with civilized population of Mesopotamia, Egypt and Persia…some exchanges were bound to take place.

While the Semitic people were warring among themselves, somewhere in Persia a prophet named Zoroaster was preaching duality, a tale of cosmic struggle between two equal and opposite powers, the good Ahura Mazda and the evil Ahriman. Later a colorful mythology was spun around this world-view. This epic is so sensational; it pales the mighty battle between Rama and Ravana in exaggerations and fantastical maneuvers. There is a myriad of characters as if coming out of Murasaki’s novel one after the other, helpers of Ahura Mazda and Ahriman; the Asuras and Daevas. There are both allegorical and physical strata in which various creations dwell; this scheme of multiple layers and the time span of this cosmic battle render Tolkein’s work juvenile. The magnificence of theatrics related to this mythology is evident in the Greek accounts of the Zoroastrian priests ‘Magi’, the root of the very word ‘magic’.

The impact of Persian mythology is not only seen in Shahnameh, Qissa Chahar Dervesh, Alif Lailah and Daastane Amir Hamza, it is quite present in the biblical and Islamic mythology. The Ahriman takes the garb of Lucifer and even though Quran never talks about the helpers of Satan, to an Indian Muslim ‘shaitan ke cheelay’ is a common term. Similarly helpers of Ahura Mazdah fit well with angels of Allah. The concept of heaven and hell and a judgment day is very much Zoroastrian as well. There is the good force, the bad force and the (ugly?) ‘Free Will’ of humans, that chooses between the two. Because the humans possess the free will to choose, they must be rewarded for good choices and punished for bad ones. This is very different from (say) the Hindu concept of a self-sustaining philosophy based on Karma and Dharma, of recycling the souls until they have achieved enough wisdom to reunite with the creator Brahma.

The Old-Testament does not mention heaven and hell or Judgment Day. Later Zoroastrian influence brought these concepts in Christianity which Islam solidified into concrete beliefs in heaven and hell with detailed descriptions of each, and even prescribed a set path for successfully avoiding hell and acquiring heaven. The concept of ‘bridge of Siraat’ is the Zoroastrian myth of the Cinvat Bridge which is stretched between the mountain tops leading from this world to heaven with hell in the chasm below. The Semitic world-view was forever changed as they absorbed the black and white of Zoroaster vs. gray of Hindus and the Greeks.

The Hindu Vedas and later mythologies of Ramayana and Mahabharata have many plots borrowed from (or lent to?) neighboring myths. The gambling match in Mahabharata seems to have been inspired by the Egyptian myth of Isis. However all myths are carefully crafted and meticulously worded to depict local characters. A distinct practice of meditation, called Yoga, is perfected and practiced at certain times of day in order to seek union with the divine creator Brahma; a practice that Buddhism adopted albeit with a few twists. First they actively spread the teachings of Buddhism to the Far East, second their prostrations deviated from the breathing exercise emphasized in Yoga. These travelling, chanting and prostrating Buddhist Monks with white robes wrapped around their bodies, will eventually catch the attention of the nascent civilization of Mecca, the heartland of Semitic culture in Arabia.

Perhaps of greatest personal interest to me, is the Canaanite high god El, who made his way from Canaan to Hebrew mythology and became so entwined with the Hebrew god YHWH that it was hard to differentiate between the two in Old Testament. El apparently had a lot of help, probably from female deities, because he is also referred to as Ellohim (plural of female Eloah.) El could well have found his way to Arabia in the form of pre-Islamic high-god Allah, the patron of Ka’ba. The fact that Quran scorns ‘kuffar’ for associating (the pre-Islamic version of) Allah with daughters, while preferring sons for themselves, gives us some more clues that El/Allah had a pantheon of female deities/helpers. Another clue is in the use of the Arabic word “allahumma” a variant of Hebrew “Ellohim”. While Ellohim can be broken down in Hebrew, Allahumma cannot be broken down in Arabic, a sure sign of borrowing. Allahumma is frequently called upon in the Hajj rituals and other prayers possibly existing from pre-Islamic customs.

Pre-Islamic Hajj was performed for the pantheon of gods housed in the four walls of Ka’ba. Ka’ba is believed to have housed gods of all cultures including Mesopotamia, Persia, Egypt and India. Mecca, at a crossroads of the ancient international trade, was a cosmopolitan city which welcomed devotees of all religion to feel at home with their personal gods, en route to the perilous caravan trails ahead. At some point the Meccans decided that Buddhist robes, prostrations and chants are a perfect accompaniment to their rituals and so the practice of Hajj flourished with sophisticated rituals, vibrant chants and uniformity of attire, (those who did not afford the robes would perform Hajj without any clothing.)

Digressing here a bit; whenever I mention this connection of Hajj and the Hindu/Buddhist custom of chants, clothing and prostrations, people get upset. I don’t understand this reaction. Surely everyone knows that Hajj rituals have changed little from pre-Islamic version? Surely everyone knows that the pre-Islamic Hajj customs were borrowed from all over the place? Why take offense? I believe it says volumes on the true nature of Islam. Islam is not against local cultural practices, unless they directly contradict any basic values of Islam. Muhammad PBUH kept all the cultural rituals of Hajj, gave them a meaning in the Islamic framework and abandoned nude circumambulations and other customs, to which he had objections. Islam was not born in a cultural vacuum, nor did Allah of Islam send an entire new cultural package with the new religion. Some people get upset at me for mentioning pre-Islamic Allah; they think by that I mean Allah before Islam. When in fact what it really means is Allah as defined by Arabs before Islam. Surely the definition and dominions of gods depends on people who claim to believe in them. Allah did exist in the pre-Islamic pantheon of gods, however his true nature, as revealed by Muhammad PBUH, was not known to Arabs. Allah as defined by Islam is not the same Allah known to pre-Islamic Arabia. Quran explicitly refutes the attributes to the pre-Islamic Allah who apparently had a lot of female helpers (angels) who were his alleged daughters.

Following the characters, plots and context of world mythologies is analogous to peering into a kaleidoscope trying to catch a form. Just when you think you have a grasp on one, it morphs fluidly into another. You can’t trace the beginning or the end; you are simply left with a prevailing knowledge of beauty and wonder. I am unable to understand the efforts of researchers trying to find the dimensions and location of Noah’s Ark in order to prove Bible correct or incorrect. I do not associate adjectives such as true or untrue to the myths, instead I prefer adjectives such as beautiful, powerful and useful; or malicious, odious and pernicious. The entire human community, or kith, is interwoven together not only biologically, genetically, socially and economically but also culturally; it seems that our myths, both unite and divide us at the same time!

Myths are constantly created even in this day and age. There are conspiracy theories around Free Masons, Illuminati and the ever powerful Jewish-American lobby. Some modern myths are in the form of fantasy movies such as Golden Compass and Harry Potter. Another popular genre is of science fiction movies such as Star-Wars and my personal favorite: The Matrix. The art of story-telling has taken on many forms but at the core, myths are still designed to excite the audience and reveal to them the hidden dimensions of their lives. Is a computer program really running our lives? Indeed, it is a very plausible explanation of even the most random acts of nature because randomization is quite programmable…or so I am told.

way of life includes how governments will be run what laws can be made and what cannot and how to deal with Non Muslims which are in their state
 
.
In conclusion :-

I guess it will be one extremely difficult mission for Pakistan to move into the concept of Ummah or to kickstart a Caliphate given the various posts by Pakistanis here. Clearly, there is extreme division between Pakistani Muslims themselves. Who will be part of the Ummah? Who will be excluded? Ahmedis regard themselves as staunch Muslims. Other Islamic sects in Pakistan deny that Ahmedis are even Muslims. Shia and Sunni divisions. The divisions itself cannot be reconciled as the general belief is that if I am Sunni etc then any other belief of Islam is totally wrong. The Mullahs generally have their own political objective in Pakistan given that it is a theocratic state. This is evident in the current turmoil within Pakistan. Their take on the Ummah concept may swing against it. My two cents is that Pakistan should focus within and start reviving its rich archeological history. Similar to Egypt. That will promote a new breed of nationalism. An Islamic state proudly preserving and displaying its Vedic history may just pay dividends.

and are nt you happy about all that... haha

you indians have no idea whats coming your way... just you wait and see :no:
 
.

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom