Ukrainian Arms Industry

[Superboy]

I have no idea hence the question>

But let me put it in these words I think it should be small, light durable deadly within 300 meters.

Dragunov shoots 1,000 meters. AK-47 shoots 300 metes. AK-74 shoots 400 meters. This is what their sights sight out to. AK-47 was replaced by AK-74 in the 1970s.

 

[Penguin]

Let's look at 'the AKs'

Original AK 47 > main features: reliable, cheap and available. Key criteria for any and every Soviet and Russian military arm: Reliability, Simplicity of operation and maintenance, Suitability for mass production. There never was demand for e.g. good ergonomics or superb accuracy. If fact, while the most durable and reliable in tests, the AK 47 dragged behind in the accuracy department, especially in full automatic, compared to its original soviet competitors. The improved AKM - while adopted - still fared about average in trials, with rival weapons proving to be more combat-effective and less expensive. In the 1974, Soviet Army officially adopted the 5.45mm ammunition and out came the rechambered AK-74 as its new standard shoulder arm. Many troops were disappointed by the effectiveness of the 5.45mm ammo during the local conflicts in the 1990s, however, and some Russian special forces troops continued to rely on the venerable 7.62mm AKM. (you see this in the US also: M14). Some export versions are chambered for 5.56mm Nato ammo.

There are a sufficient number of 'as reliable' guns out there, though not as cheap and not as available. but offering very good propositions. E.g. Swiss Sig rifles (SG516, 550, 552). Or German HK weapons (G36 which trades a little reliability for greater accuracy, HK416). Or Israëli weapons (Tavor). Of Belgian FN weapons (SCAR, like G36: more accurate plus versatile).

I like our neighbours (Germany, Belgium) guns

Dragunov shoots 1,000 meters. AK-47 shoots 300 metes. AK-74 shoots 400 meters. This is what their sights sight out to. AK-47 was replaced by AK-74 in the 1970s.

The Dragunov is a sniper rifle or standard squad support weapon, not an assault rifle: apples and oranges as far as range is concerned.

 

[Superboy]

The Dragunov is a sniper rifle or standard squad support weapon, not an assault rifle: apples and oranges as far as range is concerned.

Dragunov is nothing but a battle rifle with an attachable scope. It is cheap and reliable. Every soldier could be armed with one. Dragunov and M16 both came out in 1963 and are therefore comparable with each other. In terms of total production number, Dragunov and M16 both number around 8 million. Heck, more RPG-7 have been produced than M16.

 

[Malik Alashter]

Let's look at 'the AKs'

Original AK 47 > main features: reliable, cheap and available. Key criteria for any and every Soviet and Russian military arm: Reliability, Simplicity of operation and maintenance, Suitability for mass production. There never was demand for e.g. good ergonomics or superb accuracy. If fact, while the most durable and reliable in tests, the AK 47 dragged behind in the accuracy department, especially in full automatic, compared to its original soviet competitors. The improved AKM - while adopted - still fared about average in trials, with rival weapons proving to be more combat-effective and less expensive. In the 1974, Soviet Army officially adopted the 5.45mm ammunition and out came the rechambered AK-74 as its new standard shoulder arm. Many troops were disappointed by the effectiveness of the 5.45mm ammo during the local conflicts in the 1990s, however, and some Russian special forces troops continued to rely on the venerable 7.62mm AKM. (you see this in the US also: M14). Some export versions are chambered for 5.56mm Nato ammo.

There are a sufficient number of 'as reliable' guns out there, though not as cheap and not as available. but offering very good propositions. E.g. Swiss Sig rifles (SG516, 550, 552). Or German HK weapons (G36 which trades a little reliability for greater accuracy, HK416). Or Israëli weapons (Tavor). Of Belgian FN weapons (SCAR, like G36: more accurate plus versatile).

I like our neighbours (Germany, Belgium) guns


The Dragunov is a sniper rifle or standard squad support weapon, not an assault rifle: apples and oranges as far as range is concerned.

sO THE ONLY DRAWBACK OF THE AK IS THAT ACCURACY.

BUT WHO CARES ABOUT ACCURACY IN HEAVY FIGHTING IN STREETS WHERE THE FIGHTING HAPPEN WITHIN YARDS.

THE DEAL IS WHILE AK COST 500-1000 THE WESTERN ONE COST BETWEEN LIKE 5000-12000 SO IS IT WORTH IT TO SPEND BIG MONEY FOR A LITTLE BIT OF ACCURACY.

PLUS WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE STOPAGE THAT THE WESTERN RIFLES KNOWN ABOUT. THERE IS A TOP TEN RIFLE BY DESCOVERY THAT WAS VERY INFORMATIVE JUST LIKE ALWAYS WITH ITS TOP TEN.

 

[Superboy]

By the way, as a hunter, I use Dragunov, not AK. Dragunov weighs about a pound more than M16, 8.2 pounds compared to 7.2 pounds. Dragunov has lethal accuracy and power. In today's combat where number of soldiers is few, Dragunov's 10 round mag and semi auto fire is adequate. Typically, on a hunting trip, I carry 4 mags, or 40 bullets. The scope weighs about 1.2 pounds, so I put the scope on only when I aim at a target.

 

[Hindustani78]

Servicemen and volunteers test recon system - Міністерство оборони України
Monday, January 5. RIVNE OBLAST — Ukrainian servicemen along with volunteers test a reconnaissance system consisting of two UAVs and one off-roader.

This recon system was developed by Rivne volunteer group “Army Support — Rivne”. This system is unique as it was designed considering the needs of the anti-terror operation in the Eastern Ukraine.

 

[Penguin]

Dragunov is nothing but a battle rifle with an attachable scope. It is cheap and reliable. Every soldier could be armed with one. Dragunov and M16 both came out in 1963 and are therefore comparable with each other. In terms of total production number, Dragunov and M16 both number around 8 million. Heck, more RPG-7 have been produced than M16.

Absolutely, you are totally right. I'm sorry, the Dragunov is NOT a sniper rifle.
Hence, it is named SVD (Snayperskaya Vintovka Dragunova), I suppose.
You did also read the term 'standard squad support weapon'?

Dragunov SVD was designed not as a "standard" sniper rifle in its Western meaning of the term. In fact, main role of the SVD in Soviet / Russian Army is to extend effective range of fire of every infantry squad up to about 600 meters and to provide special firesupport. Much in the same way, the Israëli's have the Galatz, a Galil derived sniper weapon. Tactically, GALATZ is much closer to "tactical support rifles" such as famous Russian SVD or German G3-SG1, rather than to true "sniper" rifles such as US M24/M40's, or Mauser 66 and 86's, also used by IDF (Israeli Defence Forces).

Modern Firearms - Dragunov SVD
Russian Dragunov SVD
Modern Firearms - Galil sniper

 

[Hindustani78]

Poroshenko transfers military equipment to Ukrainian army

The president presented vouchers for 203-mm and 121-mm self-propelled howitzer complexes, 82-mm automatic grenade launchers, assault rifles "Fort", two MiG-29 and two Su-27 aircraft, and BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicle. "For the first time in many years, we hand over modernized aircraft to the Armed Forces of Ukraine," he said.

Poroshenko thanked employees of Zhytomyr Armored Plant, Kharkiv Automobile

 

[Penguin]

sO THE ONLY DRAWBACK OF THE AK IS THAT ACCURACY.

BUT WHO CARES ABOUT ACCURACY IN HEAVY FIGHTING IN STREETS WHERE THE FIGHTING HAPPEN WITHIN YARDS.

THE DEAL IS WHILE AK COST 500-1000 THE WESTERN ONE COST BETWEEN LIKE 5000-12000 SO IS IT WORTH IT TO SPEND BIG MONEY FOR A LITTLE BIT OF ACCURACY.

PLUS WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE STOPAGE THAT THE WESTERN RIFLES KNOWN ABOUT. THERE IS A TOP TEN RIFLE BY DESCOVERY THAT WAS VERY INFORMATIVE JUST LIKE ALWAYS WITH ITS TOP TEN.

(Don't know why your are shouting/using caps)

As for the accuracy thing, uhm, no, that is not what I said. AKs are vaunted for their reliability, but even among the tested Russian rifles are of average performance. But cheap. Not in the last place because available from numerous producers in numerous countries (30 to be exact).

A T-54/55 tank or even a basic T-72 is also cheap and widely available. But that doesn't make them good tanks. You are saying why bother with a T-90 or Western tanks?

If fighting takes place within yards, then automatic shotguns and submachine guns might well be more appropriate than assault rifles. You certainly wouldn't need the SVD support rifle either, or the RPK machine gun, would you. That is reasoned to simple, obviously.

You talk about 'western rifles' as if they are all one family, rather than distinct and unique guns, with individual development lineages. As if they ALL suffer stoppages (not!).

Durability, low production cost, availability and ease of use are the features, which assured AK-47 global success. Known AK-47 drawbacks are:
- Low accuracy. You're not going to be dropping targets at 350m with it. Period. This is due to its low muzzle velocity of 2,340 fps. (710 meters per second), which results in a looping trajectory that requires a clumsy adjustment for accuracy at ranges beyond 300 meters. It is primarily a 'spray and pray' gun.
- It has rather significant recoil, which is the price paid for the stopping power of the relatively large round.
- the ammunition is relatively expensive and heavy (so for a given weight fewer rounds can be carried, which could be a problem for people that spray and pray in an extended fight and with limited resupply).
- the gun itself is heavy compared to other firearms, esp. those that employ alloys and polymers.
- the gun is especially susceptible to over-heating in full automatic mode andf sometimes even in extended semi-automatic mode
- the gun has a unusually high rate of ‘cook-offs’ (chambered rounds that go off because of the over-heating) which can be quite hazardous the person using it.

Also, I don't know where you get the idea than 'western ' assault rifles for 5000-12000 dollar? And AKs between 500 and 1000 dollar.

Welcome - Atlantic Firearms | AR15 & AK47 Rifles
Five Assault Weapons You Can Pick up at Walmart [PHOTOS] | The Nation#

Famas: F1: 1500 € G2: 3000 €
LWRC M6 $2,350
Daewoo K1A1, K2 US $700 - $900 (surplus)
M249 light machine gun US$4,087

Certainly S&T Daewoo K11 DAW (Dual-barrel Air-burst Weapon) > $12,400 to $14,000

 

[Superboy]

(Don't know why your are shouting/using caps)

As for the accuracy thing, uhm, no, that is not what I said. AKs are vaunted for their reliability, but even among the tested Russian rifles are of average performance. But cheap. Not in the last place because available from numerous producers in numerous countries (30 to be exact).

A T-54/55 tank or even a basic T-72 is also cheap and widely available. But that doesn't make them good tanks. You are saying why bother with a T-90 or Western tanks?

If fighting takes place within yards, then automatic shotguns and submachine guns might well be more appropriate than assault rifles. You certainly wouldn't need the SVD support rifle either, or the RPK machine gun, would you. That is reasoned to simple, obviously.

You talk about 'western rifles' as if they are all one family, rather than distinct and unique guns, with individual development lineages. As if they ALL suffer stoppages (not!).

Durability, low production cost, availability and ease of use are the features, which assured AK-47 global success. Known AK-47 drawbacks are:
- Low accuracy. You're not going to be dropping targets at 350m with it. Period. This is due to its low muzzle velocity of 2,340 fps. (710 meters per second), which results in a looping trajectory that requires a clumsy adjustment for accuracy at ranges beyond 300 meters. It is primarily a 'spray and pray' gun.
- It has rather significant recoil, which is the price paid for the stopping power of the relatively large round.
- the ammunition is relatively expensive and heavy (so for a given weight fewer rounds can be carried, which could be a problem for people that spray and pray in an extended fight and with limited resupply).
- the gun itself is heavy compared to other firearms, esp. those that employ alloys and polymers.
- the gun is especially susceptible to over-heating in full automatic mode andf sometimes even in extended semi-automatic mode
- the gun has a unusually high rate of ‘cook-offs’ (chambered rounds that go off because of the over-heating) which can be quite hazardous the person using it.

Also, I don't know where you get the idea than 'western ' assault rifles for 5000-12000 dollar? And AKs between 500 and 1000 dollar.

Welcome - Atlantic Firearms | AR15 & AK47 Rifles
Five Assault Weapons You Can Pick up at Walmart [PHOTOS] | The Nation#

Famas: F1: 1500 € G2: 3000 €
LWRC M6 $2,350
Daewoo K1A1, K2 US $700 - $900 (surplus)
M249 light machine gun US$4,087

Certainly S&T Daewoo K11 DAW (Dual-barrel Air-burst Weapon) > $12,400 to $14,000

Russian prices are not measured in dollars. The world has many different currencies.

 

[Penguin]

Russian prices are not measured in dollars. The world has many different currencies.

Yes, and if you want to compare prices, you have to find a common standard to express market value in.
WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM? EURO, DOLLAR, YEN, RUBLE, I DONT FRICKIN' CARE

 

[Superboy]

Yes, and if you want to compare prices, you have to find a common standard to express market value in.
WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM? EURO, DOLLAR, YEN, RUBLE, I DONT FRICKIN' CARE

None of these currencies are comparable. Only correct comparison is production numbers. Russia can build a million AKs and Dragunovs in a month. How many can the US build?

 

[Penguin]

None of these currencies are comparable. Only correct comparison is production numbers. Russia can build a million AKs and Dragunovs in a month. How many can the US build?

OMG <baffled>
Very much off topic, sir. Time to take your meds.

This recon system was developed by Rivne volunteer group “Army Support — Rivne”. This system is unique as it was designed considering the needs of the anti-terror operation in the Eastern Ukraine.

Me-163 model?

By the way, as a hunter, I use Dragunov, not AK. Dragunov weighs about a pound more than M16, 8.2 pounds compared to 7.2 pounds. Dragunov has lethal accuracy and power. In today's combat where number of soldiers is few, Dragunov's 10 round mag and semi auto fire is adequate. Typically, on a hunting trip, I carry 4 mags, or 40 bullets. The scope weighs about 1.2 pounds, so I put the scope on only when I aim at a target.

You're actually allowed to handle a real weapon? How irresponsible!

 

[Hindustani78]

Poroshenko transfers military equipment to Ukrainian army

The president presented vouchers for 203-mm and 121-mm self-propelled howitzer complexes, 82-mm automatic grenade launchers, assault rifles "Fort", two MiG-29 and two Su-27 aircraft, and BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicle. "For the first time in many years, we hand over modernized aircraft to the Armed Forces of Ukraine," he said.

Poroshenko thanked employees of Zhytomyr Armored Plant, Kharkiv Automobile

Petro Poroshenko, President of Ukraine — Supreme Commander-in-Chief, handed over 150 combat systems manufactured or recovered by defense enterprises of Ukraine, including two MIG-29 and two SU-27, armored infantry vehicles, APCs, Spartan military off-roaders, automatic mortars, assault small arms.

 

[Superboy]

Those were all built in the Soviet era no? 2 MiG-29 and 2 Su-27 were all they could salvage. Hmm, that's pretty bad Su-35S can shoot them down in like a minute. These are obsolete planes.

found a Ukrainian rifle

Modern Firearms - Zbroyar Z-008