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Ukraine sets task of building Europe's strongest army, returning Crimea — security chief

Hint: ex-east Ukraine veterans, defectors and Cossacks with former military background from Belarus/Russia/Kazakhstan sent by the Orthodox church.And look at the military NSA troll trying to protect his masters corruption .
As for Russia if they were there ,Ukraine would have fallen long ago. Instead every time Ukraine army suffers defeat ,West is crying for ceasefire .



As for Ukraine army ,most of the new conscripts don't know how to operate the equipment .Not a wonder the eastern ex-Ukraine veterans are toasting the junta forces. If Ukrainian army was not west Ukrainian conscripts ,this rebel army would have been toast in 15 days.
let me tell you this, the last time I drove a bradley on a track is about 7 years ago, and If I were to jump on one today, I would have difficulty navigating in it. You cannot even drive a car with adequate proficiency after an extended absent, pet alone a tank.

Plus veteran know how to drive the latest tank without substancial retraining? Dude I laugh my heads off after hearing this

But then what do I expect? Comming from Russian Brigade
 
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Dude Donbas has thousands and thousands of ex military veterans. They all joined rebels. I'm sure they know how to drive tanks. :yes2: 90% of Donbas voted for Yanukovych.
 
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This may come as a surprise to you but at one time military service was mandatory in both Ukraine and Russia. There has also been thousands of Ukrainian military defectors.

Even Isis operates tanks and other heavy military equipment, both Soviet and American. :lol:





This is one of the dumbest things i have heard in a while. Many of the "pro Russian" fighters are in the 40s, 50s and some in their 60s. If Russia wanted Ukraine it would take just days to reach Kiev even the US military admitted it. The Russian air force alone would destroy most Ukrainian armor around Donbass and cause the Ukrainian military the flee just like they caused the Georgian military to flee. Even without the air force, drones, and newer heavy armor Russia would easily overwhelm the Ukrainians by sheer numbers.

And again you are putting a propaganda twist on the fighting in Donbass....'the glorious Ukrainian army is holding back a full scale Russian invasion'. In reality the Ukrainian army is retreating on every front.

and Yours are the dumbest argument I have heard.

You do know ISIS have been around since 1998 and have came back to Iraq in 2011 after US left right? And may I ask what Years in this? This is 2015. Okay say they use the captured M1 stock in 2014 june push, that give them 2 to 3 years to learn how to drive and Operate an M1 from people who know how.

Is that the same case in Ukraine? No, they manage to allegedly "steal" the tank from Ukraine depot in March and already efficiency enough for them to run around 3 months later? Shooting and destroying Ukrainian tank no less?

Even a "refresher course" for ex vet like me to regain proficiency in a Bradley would take at least 6 month in the US Army, you are saying the former vet, who may or may not trained with tank before, manage to go from zero to shooting other armoured in less than 3 months? If thats true, then either the NAP and the DPR have a more outstanding protram than US or Russia can offer...lol

Not to mention not all vet have tank training before.

LOL russian brigade at it best, I dont actually know who is better at trolling? The chinese member here or the russian nationalist lol
 
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and Yours are the dumbest argument I have heard.

You do know ISIS have been around since 1998 and have came back to Iraq in 2011 after US left right? And may I ask what Years in this? This is 2015. Okay say they use the captured M1 stock in 2014 june push, that give them 2 to 3 years to learn how to drive and Operate an M1 from people who know how.

Is that the same case in Ukraine? No, they manage to allegedly "steal" the tank from Ukraine depot in March and already efficiency enough for them to run around 3 months later? Shooting and destroying Ukrainian tank no less?

Even a "refresher course" for ex vet like me to regain proficiency in a Bradley would take at least 6 month in the US Army, you are saying the former vet, who may or may not trained with tank before, manage to fi fron zero to shooting other armoured in less than 3 months?

Not to mention not all vet have tank training before.

LOL russian brigade at it best, I dont actually know who is better at trolling? The chinese member here or the russian nationalist lol


reported for stupidity
 
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and Yours are the dumbest argument I have heard.

You do know ISIS have been around since 1998 and have came back to Iraq in 2011 after US left right? And may I ask what Years in this? This is 2015. Okay say they use the captured M1 stock in 2014 june push, that give them 2 to 3 years to learn how to drive and Operate an M1 from people who know how.


June 2014 to March 2015 is 9 months not 2 to 3 years. The points is that Ukraine had a conscript military as well as thousands of defectors including tankers, Crimea alone had about 12000 defectors some of which went to fight in Donbass. You came to the brilliant idea that because those rebels are driving around in tanks that it can only mean that it is the Russian military. Use some critical thinking skills.



Is that the same case in Ukraine? No, they manage to aallegedly "steal" the tank from Ukraine depot in March and already efficiency enough for them to run around 3 months later? Shooting and destroying Ukrainian tank no less?





Once again you are ignoring the fact that many Ukrainian military personnel defected, many others that are fighting on the rebel side are former military be it Ukrainian or Russian. It must be the hardest thing in the world to find a tanks throttle and fire its cannon especially when everything is marked in Russian. Even the uneducated Mujahadeen and ISIS did it, and the FSA do it. There is example after example of Soviet tanks being used by people with no prior military experience.





Even a "refresher course" for ex vet like me to regain pproficiency ina Bradley would take at least 6 month in the US Army, you are saying the former vet, who may or may not trained with tank before, manage to fi fron zero to shooting other armoured in less than 3 months?


Here is a video of a tv show host operating a modern T-90MS with no prior experience:




My god that is impossible, there is no way that is possible, it should take at least 3 months, or no 6 months. I am shocked the man does not have a seizure from the information overload. :lol:






LOL russian brigade at it best, I dont actually know who is better at trolling? The chinese member here or the russian nationalist lol





Can you stop saying "lol" after every other word?
 
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let me tell you this, the last time I drove a bradley on a track is about 7 years ago, and If I were to jump on one today, I would have difficulty navigating in it. You cannot even drive a car with adequate proficiency after an extended absent, pet alone a tank.

Plus veteran know how to drive the latest tank without substancial retraining? Dude I laugh my heads off after hearing this

But then what do I expect? Comming from Russian Brigade

T-55's are built on simplicity. Even I drove one perfectly and fired its main gun under supervision when I was gone on tour to Russia with training in 2 days.T-62 and T-72 is more complicated and time is needed .And most of the tanks being used by DPR are T-55's,T-64 captured from Ukrainian army. T-64 is much too complicated. T-55 very simple just like how Soviet engineering was meant .Cheap,simple ,reliable. Though for my height which is 5'10" ,T-55 was uncomfortable as it has difficulty with people over 5'7".Normally though it is not allowed ,but a 1000 rouble bribe and they will let you drive it.

Tank rides in Russia, real legends of the WW2!!! Ride T-34, IS-2, IS-3, SU-100, ISU -152, Hanomag Sd.Kfz. 251 and much more!!!

But then I don't expect much from Americans who try to overcomplicate and overengineer everything with electronics
 
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Crimea is bigger than Massachussetts, Vermot, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Hawaii, Delaware, New Jersey. Sevastopol is the home of the Black Sea fleet. The only way Ukraine can have Crimea is if Ukraine fights a war with Russia and win.
 
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lol as in budget do matter...

Well, if that's so, then maybe US should roll all over the world as nobody can even match half the US defence budget.

lol
One thing is obvious Putin's Crimea misadventure will be very costly in the long run.

Given the global sanction and geographic isolation,only way to keep afloat the Crimean economy is to provide billions of dollars of subsidy from mainland Russia each and every years.Crimea heavily dependent on Ukraine for most of the vital things.Ukraine used to provide 85 percent of water,electricity and other basic goods.Now mostly cutoff from the Ukraine Crimea have to depend on the unreliable Kerch strait ferry service to connect mainland Russia.Bridge across Kerch strait will take many years to complete.Even after completion it will be a strategic vulnerability for any future conflict. Nikita Khrushchev transferred Crimea to Ukraine not because he had great love for Ukraine,but because it make geographic and economic sense.

Due to crimea seizure Russia lost Ukraine permanently to NATO.Now NATO is starting a vast military build-up all along the Russian border which will compel Russia to unbearably increase military budget despite sanction,low energy price and economic recession.It was unbearable military cost which was one of the main factor for eventual downfall of USSR.

So Russian will start to realize slowly 'Coming home of Crimea' came with a big price tag.

lol as in budget do matter...

Well, if that's so, then maybe US should roll all over the world as nobody can even match half the US defence budget.

lol
One thing is obvious Putin's Crimea misadventure will be very costly in the long run.

Given the global sanction and geographic isolation,only way to keep afloat the Crimean economy is to provide billions of dollars of subsidy from mainland Russia each and every years.Crimea heavily dependent on Ukraine for most of the vital things.Ukraine used to provide 85 percent of water,electricity and other basic goods.Now mostly cutoff from the Ukraine Crimea have to depend on the unreliable Kerch strait ferry service to connect mainland Russia.Bridge across Kerch strait will take many years to complete.Even after completion it will be a strategic vulnerability for any future conflict. Nikita Khrushchev transferred Crimea to Ukraine not because he had great love for Ukraine,but because it make geographic and economic sense.

Due to crimea seizure Russia lost Ukraine permanently to NATO.Now NATO is starting a vast military build-up all along the Russian border which will compel Russia to unbearably increase military budget despite sanction,low energy price and economic recession.It was unbearable military cost which was one of the main factor for eventual downfall of USSR.

So Russian will start to realize slowly 'Coming home of Crimea' came with a big price tag.
 
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One thing is obvious Putin's Crimea misadventure will be very costly in the long run.

Given the global sanction and geographic isolation,only way to keep afloat the Crimean economy is to provide billions of dollars of subsidy from mainland Russia each and every years.Crimea heavily dependent on Ukraine for most of the vital things.Ukraine used to provide 85 percent of water,electricity and other basic goods.Now mostly cutoff from the Ukraine Crimea have to depend on the unreliable Kerch strait ferry service to connect mainland Russia.Bridge across Kerch strait will take many years to complete.Even after completion it will be a strategic vulnerability for any future conflict. Nikita Khrushchev transferred Crimea to Ukraine not because he had great love for Ukraine,but because it make geographic and economic sense.

Due to crimea seizure Russia lost Ukraine permanently to NATO.Now NATO is starting a vast military build-up all along the Russian border which will compel Russia to unbearably increase military budget despite sanction,low energy price and economic recession.It was unbearable military cost which was one of the main factor for eventual downfall of USSR.

So Russian will start to realize slowly 'Coming home of Crimea' came with a big price tag.


One thing is obvious Putin's Crimea misadventure will be very costly in the long run.

Given the global sanction and geographic isolation,only way to keep afloat the Crimean economy is to provide billions of dollars of subsidy from mainland Russia each and every years.Crimea heavily dependent on Ukraine for most of the vital things.Ukraine used to provide 85 percent of water,electricity and other basic goods.Now mostly cutoff from the Ukraine Crimea have to depend on the unreliable Kerch strait ferry service to connect mainland Russia.Bridge across Kerch strait will take many years to complete.Even after completion it will be a strategic vulnerability for any future conflict. Nikita Khrushchev transferred Crimea to Ukraine not because he had great love for Ukraine,but because it make geographic and economic sense.

Due to crimea seizure Russia lost Ukraine permanently to NATO.Now NATO is starting a vast military build-up all along the Russian border which will compel Russia to unbearably increase military budget despite sanction,low energy price and economic recession.It was unbearable military cost which was one of the main factor for eventual downfall of USSR.

So Russian will start to realize slowly 'Coming home of Crimea' came with a big price tag.

a friend of mind I know during my time in Iraq is a senior Ukrainian Military official now, he told me that Russia were actually buying off Crimea March last year, basically Crimea for Gas Debt, and that is the reason why there wasnt even a shot fired on crimea turnover, but things went to hell in donbass...

But by then Russia is knee deep in it, and there are no way out for them but forward....

June 2014 to March 2015 is 9 months not 2 to 3 years. The points is that Ukraine had a conscript military as well as thousands of defectors including tankers, Crimea alone had about 12000 defectors some of which went to fight in Donbass. You came to the brilliant idea that because those rebels are driving around in tanks that it can only mean that it is the Russian military. Use some critical thinking skills.









Once again you are ignoring the fact that many Ukrainian military personnel defected, many others that are fighting on the rebel side are former military be it Ukrainian or Russian. It must be the hardest thing in the world to find a tanks throttle and fire its cannon especially when everything is marked in Russian. Even the uneducated Mujahadeen and ISIS did it, and the FSA do it. There is example after example of Soviet tanks being used by people with no prior military experience.








Here is a video of a tv show host operating a modern T-90MS with no prior experience:




My god that is impossible, there is no way that is possible, it should take at least 3 months, or no 6 months. I am shocked the man does not have a seizure from the information overload. :lol:












Can you stop saying "lol" after every other word?
T-55's are built on simplicity. Even I drove one perfectly and fired its main gun under supervision when I was gone on tour to Russia with training in 2 days.T-62 and T-72 is more complicated and time is needed .And most of the tanks being used by DPR are T-55's,T-64 captured from Ukrainian army. T-64 is much too complicated. T-55 very simple just like how Soviet engineering was meant .Cheap,simple ,reliable. Though for my height which is 5'10" ,T-55 was uncomfortable as it has difficulty with people over 5'7".Normally though it is not allowed ,but a 1000 rouble bribe and they will let you drive it.

Tank rides in Russia, real legends of the WW2!!! Ride T-34, IS-2, IS-3, SU-100, ISU -152, Hanomag Sd.Kfz. 251 and much more!!!

But then I don't expect much from Americans who try to overcomplicate and overengineer everything with electronics

i do not plan on keep devoting my time here with u two, when the ultimate outcome is 200 paage of I said you spill Russian propagangda and u accuse me of spreading Western lies.

But I will have to say this tho, everyone can drive a tank, I did not say you cant drive a tabk in 3 months, tanks is an automatic gear vehicle the only control is a joy stick and 2 buttons and a pedal, what I said is you cannot be operationally competent in 3 mobts, learning the round itself and how the character will take 2 months alread, and then you have to learn about formation, how to find suitable cover, turret down and hull down
and you need all that to operate a tabk and kill other tank

My 8 years old neice can touch the pedal and turn the wheel, if I teach him where the l ignition and the key is, does that mean he can race in motor race?

This is my last post in you two
 
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a friend of mind I know during my time in Iraq is a senior Ukrainian Military official now, he told me that Russia were actually buying off Crimea March last year, basically Crimea for Gas Debt, and that is the reason why there wasnt even a shot fired on crimea turnover, but things went to hell in donbass...

But by then Russia is knee deep in it, and there are no way out for them but forward....




i do not plan on keep devoting my time here with u two, when the ultimate outcome is 200 paage of I said you spill Russian propagangda and u accuse me of spreading Western lies.

But I will have to say this tho, everyone can drive a tank, I did not say you cant drive a tabk in 3 months, tanks is an automatic gear vehicle the only control is a joy stick and 2 buttons and a pedal, what I said is you cannot be operationally competent in 3 mobts, learning the round itself and how the character will take 2 months alread, and then you have to learn about formation, how to find suitable cover, turret down and hull down
and you need all that to operate a tabk and kill other tank

My 8 years old neice can touch the pedal and turn the wheel, if I teach him where the l ignition and the key is, does that mean he can race in motor race?

This is my last post in you two

G'day Mate

To be fair, you can train a tank crew in just 3 months, but then the quality would be according to the time for training. And some skill/function will not be taught. But yes, it takes more than 9 months for Armies to train their tank crew in general.

When you consider individual training. Driver and Loader are skill based, while gunner and commander is experience based, generally you learn gunnery as a loader, then if you have enough experience, you will be promote to gunner. That is how the system work in the west. Driver, they have to go in with their own training. While commander is basically a graduation of one or more job.

Driver learn how to drive a tank, they need several month to get comfortable in all aspect on commandeering a tank, both turned out or turned in. Driving a tank turned out is like driving a truck, with no windscreen, you sit upright and you cannot see anything behind the shoulder and both bottom corner. But driving a tank turned in require a different set of skill. It would be like you paint the windscreen of your car black, then leave a tiny rectangle in the centre of the windscreen clear, then you drive along the road and tell you not to knock over anything on the side of the road, if you can do that, you can drive a tank turned in. You have to be precision about when you have less than flattery visibility, because you usually use tank with infantry, if you turn and you can't see what next to you, you may ran over your own people.

Then the gunnery, gunnery is not just skill you acquire from training, because there are more to it then firing the main gun. You need to calibrate the sight, look after your equipment and train the gun to where you want to shoot. You can learn all these in tank school, but how to adjust the sight to suit your own and how to allow that tiny drop the firing computer did not account when you are up and down about off-road, that take experience. In Australian Army, we have a regime to train the "Range Compensation" where a gunner look at a target thru computer monitor and manually adjust the gun setting. That system is not cheap, and if you can't do it on a computer, you will need to do it for real.

Finally, about teamwork, a tank have 4 crews, Gunner, Loader, Driver and Commander. The first thing you look at is there are 4 different jobs, but they have to work together as a crew. You can train individual to fill a certain position, like training a gunner about gunnery and training a driver how to drive a tank, but to work as a crew, you need to standardize the training. Otherwise there will be a gap regarding command and quality amongst each crew. So unless you have a school for all the crew who receive the same training on the same standard, each crew cannot be replaced with an "Outsider" so if one of the crew member in a particular tank is down, the whole crew, the other 2, will be useless and out of commission too. And for a perfect crew in combat, one member need to know another member's job, if the commander is down, the loader takes over, if the gunner is down the commander took over. If the driver is down, then the loader or the commander will need to take over. That mean cross training, experience and standard. Sometime not going to get for just 3 months.

Having said all that, there are possibility that anyone can be a tank crew in 3 months, just how much of a quality you are talking about, it is not going to be a standard crew, nor will it be a competent crew. But then, not knowing the quality of Ukrainian Force, so maybe the rebel can fight them with just 3 months worth of training, though as a tanker myself, I do not think that is possible. That's my fair shake of a sauce bottle.

Davo
 
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G'day Mate

To be fair, you can train a tank crew in just 3 months, but then the quality would be according to the time for training. And some skill/function will not be taught. But yes, it takes more than 9 months for Armies to train their tank crew in general.

When you consider individual training. Driver and Loader are skill based, while gunner and commander is experience based, generally you learn gunnery as a loader, then if you have enough experience, you will be promote to gunner. That is how the system work in the west. Driver, they have to go in with their own training. While commander is basically a graduation of one or more job.

Driver learn how to drive a tank, they need several month to get comfortable in all aspect on commandeering a tank, both turned out or turned in. Driving a tank turned out is like driving a truck, with no windscreen, you sit upright and you cannot see anything behind the shoulder and both bottom corner. But driving a tank turned in require a different set of skill. It would be like you paint the windscreen of your car black, then leave a tiny rectangle in the centre of the windscreen clear, then you drive along the road and tell you not to knock over anything on the side of the road, if you can do that, you can drive a tank turned in. You have to be precision about when you have less than flattery visibility, because you usually use tank with infantry, if you turn and you can't see what next to you, you may ran over your own people.

Then the gunnery, gunnery is not just skill you acquire from training, because there are more to it then firing the main gun. You need to calibrate the sight, look after your equipment and train the gun to where you want to shoot. You can learn all these in tank school, but how to adjust the sight to suit your own and how to allow that tiny drop the firing computer did not account when you are up and down about off-road, that take experience. In Australian Army, we have a regime to train the "Range Compensation" where a gunner look at a target thru computer monitor and manually adjust the gun setting. That system is not cheap, and if you can't do it on a computer, you will need to do it for real.

Finally, about teamwork, a tank have 4 crews, Gunner, Loader, Driver and Commander. The first thing you look at is there are 4 different jobs, but they have to work together as a crew. You can train individual to fill a certain position, like training a gunner about gunnery and training a driver how to drive a tank, but to work as a crew, you need to standardize the training. Otherwise there will be a gap regarding command and quality amongst each crew. So unless you have a school for all the crew who receive the same training on the same standard, each crew cannot be replaced with an "Outsider" so if one of the crew member in a particular tank is down, the whole crew, the other 2, will be useless and out of commission too. And for a perfect crew in combat, one member need to know another member's job, if the commander is down, the loader takes over, if the gunner is down the commander took over. If the driver is down, then the loader or the commander will need to take over. That mean cross training, experience and standard. Sometime not going to get for just 3 months.

Having said all that, there are possibility that anyone can be a tank crew in 3 months, just how much of a quality you are talking about, it is not going to be a standard crew, nor will it be a competent crew. But then, not knowing the quality of Ukrainian Force, so maybe the rebel can fight them with just 3 months worth of training, though as a tanker myself, I do not think that is possible. That's my fair shake of a sauce bottle.

Davo

lol yeah, No way they can train some unknown to operate a tank like some member said, and all they start killing other tank that easy with just 3 months training and without tanks school and what not?

Dude i agree with ur comment, and @Slav Defence i think this is someone you should look at. Seems to me he know a lot more about tank then anyone...and he is definitely ex Army judging from what he says
 
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lol yeah, No way they can train some unknown to operate a tank like some member said, and all they start killing other tank that easy with just 3 months training and without tanks school and what not?

Dude i agree with ur comment, and @Slav Defence i think this is someone you should look at. Seems to me he know a lot more about tank then anyone...and he is definitely ex Army judging from what he says
Mr Gary
If he confirms his profession then we will be considering him ,of course.
 
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The West is trying to prevent the reunification of the former USSR. Labor in vain. Anyway, our state will regain its rightful place in the world. Western propaganda no longer works. Works a little - but only on fools or professional traitors.


Your rightfull place in the world in in history's garbage bin just like other "prisons" of nations:Austro-Hungarian empire,European colonial empires,etc.
 
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TASS: World - Ukraine sets task of building Europe's strongest army, returning Crimea — security chief

Ukraine sets task of building Europe's strongest army, returning Crimea — security chief

© EPA/ROMAN PILIPEY
Ukraine plans to increase military spending by 100% next year, bring the number of troops to 250,000 and
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KIEV, December 17. /TASS/. Ukrainian authorities have set an ambitious task of building one of the strongest armies in Europe and bring Crimea back from Russia, Secretary of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council Oleksadr Turchynov said on Wednesday.
The country’s Defense Ministry and the Interior Ministry will get a more than 10% share in the total budget spending for 2015 estimated at $31 billion. A total of 5% of gross domestic product (GDP) of cash-strapped Ukraine will go to the army.

“We need to create one of the strongest armies in Europe, and we have no other alternative,” Turchynov said. “Our war will end only when the whole territory of Ukraine is freed, including Crimea,” he said.

Turchynov, a former speaker of the country’s parliament who was appointed as the council’s new chief on Tuesday, said one of the first steps is to increase the army reserve to 100,000 people.

Ukraine plans to increase by 100% the country’s military spending next year to 50 billion hryvnias (some $3.2 billion), Defense Minister Stepan Poltorak said last week.




© ITAR-TASS/Sergei Kazak
Ukraine may create nuclear bomb in 10 years — experts

Some 40,000 people will be called up for Ukrainian military service next year, bringing the number of troops to 250,000, the minister said. The United States and the European Union will provide funding for the military reform in Ukraine.
According to official data, Ukraine’s external debt has already reached $72.9 billion, and so far $14 billion has been repaid. Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said last week the country’s gold and foreign currency reserves dropped below $10 billion, and there were no grounds to expect them to increase.

Meanwhile, the increase in Ukraine’s military budget will be apparently at the expense of social spending. The government has already announced plans to cut state spending on the social sphere by almost $1 billion.

Ukraine’s Finance Ministry has introduced a new social policy under which some 100,000 teachers are to be sacked over two years. Currently, the number of unemployed in the country with a 42 million-strong population reaches 2 million. The spending on Ukraine’s science and education will also be cut by $200 million. Over 400 schools in rural areas will be closed, and some social benefits, including free meals and extra payment for academic degrees, will be scrapped.

Unless NATO supplied Ukraine with nuclear weapons, the immediate need for them is to focus on repairing the lifestyle of its people who are war-torn.

Turchynov is an idiot who is going to end up like Georgia if he continues down this path.

Ukraine is a peaceful and industrially progressive nation.

Crimea was given to them at the fall of USSR. Fighting Russia believing that NATO will be sending fighter jets to bomb Moscow is purely idiotic.

Poroshenko and Turchynov need to get a grip on reality.
 
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