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Ukraine Crisis, Whose position is more justified? Russia or Nato?

What stance China have?? Will China support Russia in any future war or sanctions by Western countries??
The PLA is keen for wars. The skirmishes with India is warm up. The PLA men and women have nothing to do but too many weapons to use up. The last war they fought was the invasion of Vietnam. It’s long ago.
 
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It's a matter of the natinal security, be realistic. It's a fact of life. Pakistan will also intervene if seeing a anti Pakistan government is forming in a neighboring country, it's just a reality in this world.
...so russia feels threatened by ukraine? pakistan has a hostile neighbor right next to us, and, for the sake of argument, if paksitan sees a shift in china's policy, that gives pakistan the right to intervene in china's internal matters?

there is no "reality" here, just stronger countries forcing their will upon weaker ones.

besides, some history lesson for you, Japan never conquered China, surely there was a war between China and Japan, like wars fought in all other countries.
please
 
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...so russia feels threatened by ukraine? pakistan has a hostile neighbor right next to us, and, for the sake of argument, if paksitan sees a shift in china's policy, that gives pakistan the right to intervene in china's internal matters?

there is no "reality" here, just stronger countries forcing their will upon weaker ones.


please
The war was fought only in less than one third of China, and no one was defeated , every party still had their own strong bases and millions of troops even in 1945

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there is no "reality" here, just stronger countries forcing their will upon weaker ones.
This is the sad reality, but it's the reality, we don't live in an ideal dream, what I m talking about is the US attitude and position, Ukraine is just a cannon fodder.
 
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This is the sad reality, but it's the reality, we don't live in an ideal dream, what I m talking about is the US attitude and position, Ukraine is just a cannon fodder.
so you agree that russia is wrong?
 
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so you agree that russia is wrong?
It's debatable, but I believe US is definitely wrong, this is more about US and Russia.

As a small country, Ukraine should learn to balance big powers and try not to take sides causing unneccessary trouble for the country, in this regard, Ukrainian politicians are also very wrong.
 
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I think both have some right.

Russia has right to ask stop NATO expansion to Ukraine.
Donbass should be independent from Ukraine.
Kiev has right to avoid a Russian coup.
And Russia has right to use NordStream and avoid sell gas through Ukraine.
 
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I think almost everyone can agree that Russia is right. Ukraine with nato presence threatens crime ( isn't there a Russian naval base there) and Russia excess to black sea. Also Nato right at there border. This will be unacceptable to any country.
Russia has overwhelming military advantage viz a viz Ukraine and I don't think it will bow down to any economic pressure because it threatens its security.

Think of it from our perspective would Pakistan want Indian army bases in Afghanistan? Had Taliban been defeated and the outcome of war was different it was technically game over for Pakistan with a stable India centric Afghanistan and if there was no resistance which Taliban offered over 2 decades there would have been Indian airforce and military bases in Afghanistan.


If the war breaks out the economic consequences will be massive for the whole world if Russia is sanctioned. A country like Pakistan will have extraordinary tough time, its already not easy in the global commodity market. All of the LNG, coal and crude will be diverted to Europe because they will pay more. Our both long term contracts ( Eni and Guvnor) are defaulting already, even Qatar direct contracts would default than. Let alone the crude and coal prices.
 
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Ukraine Crisis, Whose position is more justified? Russia or Nato?

TLDR, none of them.
 
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Russia and China are two authoritarian regimes who force their people to do exactly what the state wants

its goes against human nature

you cannot force your views on other and make them think the way the government wants

human are born free and fight for freedom their whole life

USSR and all the Warsaw Pack nations faced same fate, they all self destructed when people woke up

China is no different and all these crimes China is doing against Ughurs, HK and Tibet will soon come back to bite them

seems like China never learnt anything from Russia
 
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original article
Ukraine Crisis, Whose position is more justified? Russia or Nato?

Russia:

View attachment 811301



As Russia is building its military presence near the border with Ukraine and Western analysts sound the alarm about a possible invasion, Russian President Vladimir Putin says his actions are a response to NATO’s enlargement.

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No formal treaties

In 1990, questions about whether reunified Germany could be part of NATO were raised. West Germany had been part of the alliance since 1955.

The Soviet Union collapsed a year later, but an agreement between NATO and Russia that the military bloc would not expand to the east is a “myth”, political analysts say.

“This is a myth. To start with, there is no promise in any formal treaty document that the NATO countries made to the Soviet Union or Russia,” said Tomas Janeliūnas, a political science professor at Vilnius University (VU).

According to him, if there was a formal agreement, Putin and other Russian politicians would be able to refer to it directly when talking about NATO expansion.

In the words of Andrius Prochorenko, researcher at Eastern Europe Studies Centre (EESC), arguments invoking alleged agreement with NATO were made up by Putin, as his predecessor Boris Yeltsin never said anything like that.

“If we look at various historical documents, minutes of meetings, and so on, we see that the issue of NATO expansion to the east was not even mentioned,” Prochorenko told LRT.lt.

When Poland, the Czech Republic, and Hungary joined NATO in 1999, there was no objection from Yeltsin or Russia, the EESC researcher added.


“It was only after Lithuania and other Baltic countries joined NATO that Putin started to say that there was such an agreement and that it was a threat to Russia,” Prochorenko added.

Promises to Soviets, not Russians

Although there was no formal agreement between NATO and Russia, Putin is referring to informal conversations that are publicly available today, said John Lough, an analyst at the London-based think tank Chatham House and NATO’s first representative in Moscow, who worked there in the mid-1990s.

According to him, the then US Secretary of State James Baker did mention in a conversation with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO's military jurisdiction was not expected to extend beyond Germany's eastern border.

But the US officials were talking to their Soviet, not Russian, counterparts. At the time, nobody could predict that former Soviet states would become NATO members a decade later, Lough said.

“Let us remember that in 1990, the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact were still in existence. So the idea that NATO would enlarge was certainly ambitious,” he told LRT.lt

“All that Baker and the Soviet counterparts were talking about was how to manage the situation in united Germany. They came up with the formula that there would be temporary deployments of German forces on the territory of former East Germany. At that time, Baker said, I think quite sincerely, that there would be no movement of NATO beyond that,” Lough added.

But a few months later, the geopolitical situation in Europe changed drastically as the Soviet Union collapsed.

“Looking back, the Russian side believes that the assurances that were given by Baker and other Western leaders to the Soviet side also applied to the Russian Federation, even though Russia now existed with borders with which it never existed before,“ the former NATO representative in Moscow said.

Right after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia was not so hostile to NATO, and some politicians even thought that it could one day decide to join the alliance, according to Lough.

He stressed that the Partnership for Peace was devised in 1994 as a solution to what to do with the Central European countries.

“Several countries in Central Europe felt that this was NATO trying to avoid the need to enlarge. I think it shows that in the US, in particular, there was no great enthusiasm for going down this road. In the end, it was driven very largely by the Central European countries’ aspirations [to join NATO],” Lough said.

No diplomatic basis

According to the VU professor Janeliūnas, the US diplomats spoke about the non-expansion of NATO in 1990 because they wanted to convince Gorbachev to support the unification of Germany.

“No international treaty is valid forever and, in this case, there wasn't even a treaty. To say that any verbal references or attempts at reassurance should be valid now is simply naive,” he said.

“When Russia says that it has taken over the Soviet Union commitments, there was nothing to take over in terms of NATO enlargement because there were no contractual things. The takeover of verbal promises has no basis in diplomacy,” Janeliūnas added.

According to Lough, Putin is now talking about the alleged agreement between NATO and Russia because he feels that his country was cheated after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

“I think Putin might quite sincerely believe that Russia was deceived. […] [Russians] now feel much stronger, and they believe that now is time to re-examine those agreements and for Russia to be given the security guarantees that it craves,” he said.

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It's debatable, but I believe US is definitely wrong, this is more about US and Russia.

As a small country, Ukraine should learn to balance big powers and try not to take sides causing unneccessary trouble for the country, in this regard, Ukrainian politicians are also very wrong.


only communist nations have 1 million men army and 20,000 x T72 tanks like Saddam did

UK does not keep such nonsense for domestic consumption

UK is sending 1,200 highly trained Royal Marines, Paras, Arctic warfare specialists, 45 Commando and Royal artillery to mainland Europe

Royal Marines battalion alone can stop a entire Russian division and tie down 2 more

HMS Diamond the Type 45 DDG can track a tennis ball travelling at 300km per hour from 30 miles away and shot it down

if it wasn't for UK, the Soviet Union would have taken 70% of Europe
 
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Russia is correct. West are the bastrads looking for a fight.

Absolutely! The Americans are always looking for a fight. But to me it looks more like posturing. In all of West's media, Russia has been portrayed as a villain. I dont think USA will try to invade Ukraine or militarily engage. Russia is not some weakened, sanctioned Middle East country. It will retaliate.
 
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Absolutely! The Americans are always looking for a fight. But to me it looks more like posturing. In all of West's media, Russia has been portrayed as a villain. I dont think USA will try to invade Ukraine or militarily engage. Russia is not some weakened, sanctioned Middle East country. It will retaliate.
Of course they are posturing. Russia can hit back. The west always gang up on small countries that have no military like Afghanistan or Grenada. Countries that have strong militaries is only sanctions.
 
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