UAE, Pakistan and Mirage 2000-9s

[MastanKhan]

The true mettle of people comes forth when an attractive prospect comes along to divert them from their principles.

Our principles: increased indigenization leading to indigenous 5+ gen fighter and short term risk mitigation through acquiring advanced jet like FC31 or latest block F16 or eurofighter. How does mirage 2000-9 stack up against these options?

Hi,

How fast you fizzled out---stop these worthless posts of yours---. You have no concept and clue of battle readiness---.

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

Most posters have no concept of what you stated---" fast integration "---. They have no concept about the time it would take to " integrate " the JF17 BLK 3 when it comes out---.

A totally new game plan for the battle----as I have stated many a times---JF17 is a great aircraft in its own merit---but it is not an aircraft for a nation whose air force desperately needs to fill in huge holes left by obsolete aircraft---.

Except no one has shown objectively how 'fast integration' would be possible. The Mirage-2000-9 is a completely different aircraft with different materials in the airframe, different engine, etc. Just upgrading the overhaul factory would be a multi-year project. Then there are the spare parts that would need to come from France and anyone who thinks France won't put an embargo on us in a war with India is only kidding themselves. Remember just recently a French official was encouraging India to attack terror camps in Pakistan.

Seriously, I feel some people absolutely revel everytime a prospect arises to put Pakistan's strategic offensive capabilities under Western thumb.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

Most posters have no concept of what you stated---" fast integration "---. They have no concept about the time it would take to " integrate " the JF17 BLK 3 when it comes out---.

A totally new game plan for the battle----as I have stated many a times---JF17 is a great aircraft in its own merit---but it is not an aircraft for a nation whose air force desperately needs to fill in huge holes left by obsolete aircraft---.

Sir,
This comes out when one has spent some time on airbases observing FGTs, attended flight mechanics and flight schools, becomes very clear...

It is like if you buy Tesla Model X while you have been driving Toyota Corolla all your life, despite former's advance features and systems, the old Corolla will be more useful so upgrading to new a Corolla would make more sense since you know how it drives, all the systems are known despite the addition of new features it is organically Toyota and shares the same genes as Toyota from 1998.

But this is a whole different game when it comes to an A/C, and integrating weapons with it, getting all the systems to work with it and then become the part of the war doctrine with well defined role..takes a long time.

 

[CriticalThought]

Also, there are big question marks around France allowing integration of nuclear capable Ra'ad on their fighter. There is a reason why, at least officially, Ra'ad isn't integrated with the F-16.

 

[帅的一匹]

Sir,
This comes out when one has spent some time on airbases observing FGTs, attended flight mechanics and flight schools, becomes very clear...

It is like if you buy Tesla Model X while you have been driving Toyota Corolla all your life, despite former's advance features and systems, the old Corolla will be more useful so upgrading to new a Corolla would make more sense since you know how it drives, all the systems are known despite the addition of new features it is organically Toyota and shares the same genes as Toyota from 1998.

But this is a whole different game when it comes to an A/C, and integrating weapons with it, getting all the systems to work with it and then become the part of the war doctrine with well defined role..takes a long time.

It is the problem that PAF doesn't have a dedicated bomber fighter. M2k9 is just a stop gap, you don't put too many stakes in it.

 

[tarrar]

Its a bad idea. PAF should acquire new & modern fighter jets.

 

[jupiter2007]

Its a bad idea. PAF should acquire new & modern fighter jets.

Bad or Good Idea, it all depends on next 3 to 6 month...forget about F-16s if Trumps plays hardball with Pakistan, even getting the spares for current F-16 fleet will be difficult. But if he plays nice then we might be able to get some more F-16s and that might be a better option than Mirage-2000-9.

F-16 will always be under USA control, can't be modified them without asking USA.

Acquiring 24 to 36 modern 4th generation fighter will cost money, between 2 to 4 billions.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir,
This comes out when one has spent some time on airbases observing FGTs, attended flight mechanics and flight schools, becomes very clear...

It is like if you buy Tesla Model X while you have been driving Toyota Corolla all your life, despite former's advance features and systems, the old Corolla will be more useful so upgrading to new a Corolla would make more sense since you know how it drives, all the systems are known despite the addition of new features it is organically Toyota and shares the same genes as Toyota from 1998.

But this is a whole different game when it comes to an A/C, and integrating weapons with it, getting all the systems to work with it and then become the part of the war doctrine with well defined role..takes a long time.

Hi,

About 10 years ago when I wrote that it would take about 8-10 years for integration of the JF17---I was being very conservative and dinot wanted to be bashed too hard---but I did get bashed.

Realistically---a 4th gen aircraft---the first aircraft is close to 12-15 years of pains and aches of integration.

The 2nd upgrade with the Aesa and other EW equipment would be another 5---8 years more.

So---close to 15-20 years---. And this time frame is not an issue if you have aircraft in inventory doing their jobs---but when you have close to 225 obsolete aircraft already in place---then you cannot place your bets on TOT and building your own aircraft---.

You have to fill the primary gap with the available aircraft to keep you our of duress---like in this case of the indian submarine surfacing near pak coastline---and creating security problems---made pak military realize how ill equipped they are---.

People talk about TOT----WTF is TOT---what good is TOT when you don't have anything to protect you now---it is not a laptop or a cell phone that we are building that we must have TOT---it is a weapon---TOT or no TOT---it is a must purchase from any source and any cost.

For that reason---the M2K9---would be a super duper deal if they can be had---.

 

[帅的一匹]

It's would be even better if China can fund another 3 squadrons of J10b. Xi shall think about it, at least something like CFS.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

https://defence.pk/threads/qatar-talks-with-pakistan-over-mirage-2000-5s.440768/page-9#post-8500315

 

[monitor]

We had discussion in 2009 2015 and again 2017 about induction of Mirage 2009 without Any results in horizon.

It's would be even better if China can fund another 3 squadrons of J10b. Xi shall think about it, at least something like CFS.

Why B C is already flying.

 

[zahid334]

Mirage is still one of the best BOMBER no doubt.

 

[ali_raza]

i use to wake up whole night watching videos of mirage 2k whenever there use to be a thread on this topic.but now m heart burned.

 

[singlefighter]

Getting these used M2K-9s will only make sense if they are costing us much less than producing a JF-17. It will be an unfamiliar platform and gaining proficiency on it will take time. Training, infrastructure and parts acquisition costs will be incurred. The similarity of M2K-9 with the existing PAF Mirages are limited to both being French and are tailless deltas. But that is where the similarity ends. M2K is a FBW-CCV technology fighter with different performance specs, handling characteristics and avionics and sensors suite. It would not be like purchasing used F-16s ... whose infrastructure and maintenance know-how we already have.

So if we purchase used and out of production unfamiliar M2Ks then its not going to be a simple sync-in to air operations like the used F-16s are for the PAF. But if we do go this route we could be inadvertently sending out the message that the JF-17 is not all that capable as we are going thru all the hassle of the induction of used out of production M2Ks. Also the spare parts base for the M2K is not as extensive as the F-16s. Hence acquiring spare parts in the future may also become a hassle. Hence as a result we might find it a bit more difficult to sell the JF-17 after such a deal.


All of our ROSE platforms were purchased after production had stopped and most of them were moth balled by their original operators.

Exactly, if PAF buy these old M2K it means we are giving message to our JFT buyers that old rusty Mirages are better than new JFT. we must utilize this money in another production line of JFT then we can produce 40 to 50 A/C in a year so can speed up the replacing phase of old jets

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

About 10 years ago when I wrote that it would take about 8-10 years for integration of the JF17---I was being very conservative and dinot wanted to be bashed too hard---but I did get bashed.

Realistically---a 4th gen aircraft---realistically---the first aircraft is close to 12-15 years of pains and aches of integration.

The 2nd upgrade with the Aesa and other EW equipment would be another 5---8 years more.

So---close to 15-20 years---. And this time frame is not an issue if you have aircraft in inventory doing their jobs---but when you have close to 225 obsolete aircraft already in place---then you cannot place your bets on TOT and building your own aircraft---.

You have to fill the primary gap with the available aircraft to keep you our of duress---like in this case of the indian submarine surfacing near pak coastline---and creating security problems---made pak military realize how ill equipped they are---.

People talk about TOT----WTF is TOT---what good is TOT when you don't have anything to protect you now---it is not a laptop or a cell phone that we are building that we must have TOT---it is a weapon---TOT or no TOT---it is a must purchase from any source and any cost.

For that reason---the M2K9---would be a super duper deal if they can be had---.

Actually the non-technical people young minds with no experience, knowledge or clue, they only want to hear some good news so that they can do some chest thumping....instant gratification but the professionals know it takes years to properly integrate an A/C into the system.