U.S. Sends Second Carrier to Asia Amid Tensions with China

[yusheng]

These Aren't the Drones You're Looking For
April 17, 2014 Paul Scharre, Shawn Brimley In the News Source: Foreign Policy
Journalist(s): Shawn Brimley, Paul Scharre
Post: National Security: These Aren't the Drones You're Looking For
CNAS Expert: Paul Scharre, Shawn Brimley
The aircraft carrier is perhaps the most powerful symbol of the U.S. military and a formidable weapon for projecting American might abroad, and yet the Navy is about to make a choice that will make it less relevant for future wars.

In just a few days, the Navy will begin specifying requirements for a new unmanned carrier-launched combat aircraft, called UCLASS -- the Navy's first operational program for an unmanned combat aircraft, or "drone," designed and built to operate from an aircraft carrier. The Navy faces a stark choice: procure a non-stealthy loitering drone like the land-based Predator, or a stealthy penetrating drone like the X-47B unmanned carrier demonstrator. If the aircraft carrier is to stay relevant in future conflicts, it will need a stealthy penetrating drone to fly inside advanced enemy air defenses, where non-stealthy aircraft like today's Predator arevulnerable. All indications are that the Navy is set to choose a non-stealthy version, which will severely limit the carrier's usefulness in future conflicts.

U.S. aircraft carriers can move across the seas today virtually unchallenged by other nations' militaries, but that is changing fast. Anti-ship ballistic missiles like China's DF-21D can threaten U.S. aircraft carriers beyond 800 nautical miles. This is a major problem as theunrefueled range of the carrier's current aircraft is only 500-650 nautical miles, meaning that it would need to expose itself to salvos of ballistic missiles in order to launch its aircraft. This trend will only get worse as anti-ship missiles gain longer range and greater precision, and proliferate in greater numbers.

 

[cnleio]

We'll do what is necessary to cripple your military, I guarantee you that. Also, I fail to see how that pertains to targeting your ISR nodes.

Hehe ... u r just a soldier, not strategist.

When U.S money burn in Central Asia, burn in Western Pacific, burn in Middle-East, burn in Indian Ocean, burn in Europe etc ... we just need to sit on the chairs and wait for the Power collapsing.

Go ahead, China has thousands of DF-21, just prepare for much more U.S dollars to destroy these cheaper Made in China warheads.

 

[dlclong]

American words, reply America------“This is a realprovocation!” “very close” and “very dangerous.”

 

[gambit]

Do you also use your daily commute time to devise strategy, have access to race track, have teams working for you, and have a unlimited amount of film and experts advising you, as well as having access to Ferrari, and Lambos.

If the answer to those questions is yes, that you in fact have that during your daily commute, then you have as good a chance of being as good.

The problem with your argument is that you assumed that all pilots have the same training syllabus, same degrees of instructor proficiency, same pretty much everything. Wrong.

Chinese pilots are professional pilots same as you, if you are one, they spend their time perfecting their craft, use their time in realistic combat drills against the best a few nations and China has to offer.

They have the same access to materials, to experts, to weapons, to almost everything Americans have access to.

Why do you think the Americans' Fighter Weapons School, Red Flag, and Top Gun lessons are coveted by EVERY air forces in the world, including your China ?

Japan Air Self Defense Force Trains, Excels during RED FLAG-Alaska > U.S. Pacific Command > News Article View

Historically, if a pilot survives his or her first 10 combat sorties, their ability to make it through an entire campaign dramatically increases. During RF-A, Eielson's 18th Aggressor Squadron aims to simulate those first 10 sorties through realistic combat experience to help increase participants' survivability and lethality.

Aerial combat is essentially individual contests scattered all over the sky. The simulations came from decades of individual combat experiences and have only two (safety) limitations: live weapons and altitude. That is the equivalent of being 99% close to real combat. Remove those safety limits and you will face a pilot who have essentially survived 99% of each of those 10 real combat engagements by his predecessors.

Do you know the real reason why the Imperial Japanese air forces, Navy and Army, lost in WW II ? Because the Americans sent home their airmen, pilots and enlisted gunners, after a certain amount of combat time in order to record and instruct future airmen of their successes and mistakes. That is a decades long foresightedness that literally no one had at that time and it led to the supremacy of the American air forces today.

You said 'almost everything American have access to' ? That 'almost' is the reason why in real fights, your PLAAF pilots will be buried at sea.

True they have no combat experience, but to suggest they are unprofessional is simply not true.

It is true. Professionalism involves more than just basic airmanship.

You may not like what we do in your area of the world, but if you demand we respect China's sovereignty over China territorial airspace, then you must respect the freedoms and rights everyone enjoys OUTSIDE of China's territorial airspace. A truly professional force would not have sanctioned reckless behaviors upon anyone who exercises those freedoms and rights in areas that are NOT under sovereign controls. You want to let US know you are aware of our recon flights ? Nothing wrong with that. You want to have a physical presence, ship or plane or man, in order to make it clear of your intention ? Nothing wrong with that either. But what you are defending is the equivalent of a police officer spinning his pistol, repeatedly chambering a round, or dry firing while aiming his pistol at a person who does nothing wrong.

In a real fight, we may lose more men against US, but it's crazy to assume it be anything like the Iraq war.

Given the successes that we have, it would be crazy to assume there would not be Desert Storm redux in Asia.

 

[BoQ77]

US AC is not created as symbol, they created as movable floating bases for oversea acts.
It decrease the dependence to the oversea naval and air bases and help to approach closer to target.

China has not both of that advantages : AC and oversea bases.

So DF-21D could relax their mind for a while beyond the fear of US AC

 

[F-22Raptor]

Hehe ... u r just a soldier, not strategist.

When U.S money burn in Central Asia, burn in Western Pacific, burn in Middle-East, burn in Indian Ocean, burn in Europe etc ... we just need to sit on the chairs and wait for the Power collapsing.

Go ahead, China has thousands of DF-21, just prepare for much more U.S dollars to destroy these cheaper warheads.

I state how to counter the DF-21 and then you go off on a tangent about economics. That's typical of someone who has no real rebuttal. If your waiting for us to collapse, then you will still be waiting while your six feet under the ground. We aren't going anywhere.

 

[gambit]

Which speed faster ?
1. U.S A.C's 30+ knots
2. China DF-21C/D 10Mach during hypersonic re-entry.

This have been discussed before. In a missile versus ship engagement, if the missile failed by just one meter, the ship win.

 

[BoQ77]

American words, reply America------“This is a realprovocation!” “very close” and “very dangerous.”

Yes. so close, very dangerous

 

[cnleio]

I state how to counter the DF-21 and then you go off on a tangent about economics. That's typical of someone who has no real rebuttal. If your waiting for us to collapse, then you will still be waiting while your six feet under the ground. We aren't going anywhere.

The purpose of Asymmetric Warfare, is to make troubles and stop threats by rival.

China has DF-21C/Ds, didn't mean we need to use them now. Two U.S A.C groups stay in SCS now still didn't affect China trades and foreign business yet. Ur ships didn't hinder Chinese core interests, China also won't fight back. The DF-21 is a way to stop further threat from sea waters, of course China can find other ways to continue developing our Asymmetric Warfare.

Anyway the War can not without Money, right now i think China still need U.S and ur American wallets, before China getting stronger and rich World N.o2 need N.o1.

 

[Genesis]

The problem with your argument is that you assumed that all pilots have the same training syllabus, same degrees of instructor proficiency, same pretty much everything. Wrong.


Why do you think the Americans' Fighter Weapons School, Red Flag, and Top Gun lessons are coveted by EVERY air forces in the world, including your China ?

America had a lot of combat experience. But if you know anything of the fight game, boxing and MMA, you would know, it's not so much the techniques that the big time experience offers, it's the atmosphere, the mental state, the ability to handle media, pressure, and such.

True Chinese pilots would probably suffer mentally more than an American counter part and would probably especially be way below Americans in helping the mental state of the pilot. Things like how to prepare, how to schedule, how much everything is needed, etc, would also play a major role.

But to suggest, Chinese pilot's technique and combat ability is not good is plane wrong. Reason is simple, Chinese pilots also do tons of air to air dog fights and also sets high standards. We also record experiences, have access to people who make the fighters and make suggestions.

In terms of dog fighting, America would probably still have the edge, but it's not as big as you like to make, Chinese pilots are also university educated and spend their days thinking new tactics and using them in combat, why would they come to a different conclusion, unless you are saying Chinese are inferior in nature. But you are not exactly white either are you.

They also regularly go up against Chinese air defense brigades, to test their skills. Recent Turkey tenders at least reveals we are in the competition. Before anyone say it's because we are cheaper and offer more, why don't you bring something that actually suck and call it free and see if they would take it.

They also fly, recap, think, and again. They don't just do the same crap a million times.



Obviously we still lack experience and nothing can substitute actual combat, as a whole USAF is better, but you are suggesting that they are no better than Iraqi pilots which is far from the truth.

Aerial combat is essentially individual contests scattered all over the sky. The simulations came from decades of individual combat experiences and have only two (safety) limitations: live weapons and altitude. That is the equivalent of being 99% close to real combat. Remove those safety limits and you will face a pilot who have essentially survived 99% of each of those 10 real combat engagements by his predecessors.

Do you know the real reason why the Imperial Japanese air forces, Navy and Army, lost in WW II ? Because the Americans sent home their airmen, pilots and enlisted gunners, after a certain amount of combat time in order to record and instruct future airmen of their successes and mistakes. That is a decades long foresightedness that literally no one had at that time and it led to the supremacy of the American air forces today.

You said 'almost everything American have access to' ? That 'almost' is the reason why in real fights, your PLAAF pilots will be buried at sea.

You guys say China copies everything, well, congratulations, we also copied your model of instruction, and combat. There are Gold helmet competitions every year that puts pilots from all over the country against each other.

Side note, what exactly do you think PLAAF do all the time, they don't sit around stare at the wall.

Also although limited, we do exercise with other countries, including countries that partake in your air exercises, so it's not exactly like we are completely cut off reality.

It is true. Professionalism involves more than just basic airmanship.

You may not like what we do in your area of the world, but if you demand we respect China's sovereignty over China territorial airspace, then you must respect the freedoms and rights everyone enjoys OUTSIDE of China's territorial airspace. A truly professional force would not have sanctioned reckless behaviors upon anyone who exercises those freedoms and rights in areas that are NOT under sovereign controls. You want to let US know you are aware of our recon flights ? Nothing wrong with that. You want to have a physical presence, ship or plane or man, in order to make it clear of your intention ? Nothing wrong with that either. But what you are defending is the equivalent of a police officer spinning his pistol, repeatedly chambering a round, or dry firing while aiming his pistol at a person who does nothing wrong.

I'm not sure where this took place, is it in our ADIZ? If yes, I have in another thread listed my and another person that lists his opinion on the whole ADIZ affair.

But the gist of it is, if what we are doing is illegal, then you need to tell Japan to stop doing it to our planes as well. They still listen to you from what I can tell.

Given the successes that we have, it would be crazy to assume there would not be Desert Storm redux in Asia.

[/quote]

Maybe, but Berlin did have Soviet and American flags at the end of the war, and they defeated France and not Iraq.

You must look at each situation as they are individually. If we achieve similar result in a China Philippines war, would that really mean China is as good as US, it would just mean Philippines sucks.

I'm not saying US sucks, but to suggest, because in the Iraq war these things happened, they will happen again in another place is not a sound argument.

I don't doubt the American success in desert storm, and I don't doubt the current American power, in fact if it was today, you might actually be a lot closer to the truth than not, but we have been spending 100+ billions a year for a few years now, and the fruit is being seen across the board.

Our spending is only going to go up, our coorporation with nations will only increase, and our combat readiness will only increase.

 

[gambit]

But to suggest, Chinese pilot's technique and combat ability is not good is plane wrong.

Good compare to who ? US ?

Whenever something is 'good', there is usually a par implied. You say the PLAAF is 'good' ? Fine, then what/where is that par ? Certainly not against US, because your pilots would be not good enough. No 'suggestion' here, buddy. Just harsh reality.

Obviously we still lack experience and nothing can substitute actual combat, as a whole USAF is better, but you are suggesting that they are no better than Iraqi pilots which is far from the truth.

Before we beat the Iraqis, we defeated the best we have -- ourselves. Over and over again. We created the best aircrafts in the world, which helped produced the best pilots in the world, and we did not rest there. We drew upon the experiences of the best pilots in history who flew the best fighters of their eras, from WW I to Vietnam, and see if/how their tactics are applicable to modern technologies and the new combat techniques that new technologies inevitably spawns. So not only does the PLAAF lacks actual combat experience, its parent institution, the PLA have a history of low opinions of other experiences that prevented the entire Chinese military structure from exercising the most important item in improvement -- self criticism.

Yes...The PLA got humiliated, in front of the Politburo no less, because of its generals' prediction for Desert Storm, and that prompted the Chinese military reformation that we see today, a reformation that have American signatures all over, from individual army troopers to high tech pilots, but it will take at least one more generation of continuous reformation and self examinations before the PLA finally rid itself of the 'old guards' and be a truly professional military. That is a cultural generation, which is about 70 yrs, not a physical generation which is about 35 yrs. Is it true that in China, military vehicles can ignore traffic laws and abused other road using people ? In the US, the local sheriff can arrest the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff if the general ever ordered his driver to do anything halfway remotely the same as what the Chinese generals usually do. Given how your PLA generals behaves, is it any wonder your pilots are equally reckless ?

You guys say China copies everything, well, congratulations, we also copied your model of instruction, and combat. There are Gold helmet competitions every year that puts pilots from all over the country against each other.

Yeah...I know of the Golden Shower awards for Chinese pilots. Put any of them into Red Flag and he will virtually 'die' within seconds from merge.

 

[TaiShang]

so one carrier less in the middle east and europe and next week it has to go to the other side in the atlantic again if something happens there, back and ford. This is not a sign of strength but weakness as america feels unstable that it feels the need to locate one of their aircraft carriers just because of a barrel role lol.

LOL, indeed. Let them burn the last remaining chunks of borrowed money and wealth. It is in fact good to move an entire CBG from one end of the world to the other with a stunt.

Nice cost-effective strategy. Watching the enemy burn itself out is a lot fun than burning oneself out to burn them out.

 

[xunzi]

It is not the intercept which bothers us, it is the insane buzzing, barrel rolling in close proximity, and games of chicken. This is a very simple issue, and only the brain-damaged pilots in that squadron and a few others don't seem able to comprehend it.

That is always your side of the story. That is something you don't put your shoe in other position to understand. You don't build mutual trust by increasing surveillance.

 

[Mr.S.Singh]

This have been discussed before. In a missile versus ship engagement, if the missile failed by just one meter, the ship win.

US has a policy on nuclear retaliation right if CBG's are taken down ? Would china risk a nuclear by targeting CBG ?
Esp when they have a NFU policy

 

[xunzi]

This have been discussed before. In a missile versus ship engagement, if the missile failed by just one meter, the ship win.

Your AC cost at least $10 billion and one DF-21D cost around $10Mil. We take that number and throw at you in different direction to hit.