U.S-Pakistan Brainstorm on WoT

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Strong words of praise for COAS Kiyani by Adm. Mullen:

"He's undertaken operations that were not ongoing, certainly, when our meetings started a few months ago. February, I think, was the first time I met with him. Clearly, he's a chief of staff of the army who's got a challenge of a conventional threat from India, which he still recognizes, as well as a requirement to get at this counterinsurgency. And so he's moving in that direction.

I'm pleased that he's moving in that direction and that he is, actually, operating. And again, we're trying to figure out, you know, where -- how that fits into bringing pressure onto that border to minimize -- to work to minimize the cross-border operations from Pakistan into Afghanistan on the case of the insurgents. And I think it's going to -- it's just going to take some time. "

"Well, I think -- I think the impact is going to be long term. Clearly there are very significant differences in how you approach each different area in that part of the world. That's, quite frankly, part of the education process.

And having met with General Kayani several times, he's very consistent in what he's doing. He's thought this through, and he continues to move forward.

And in an area that involves, obviously, the Pak military, his authority is over the Frontier Corps as well, and so expectations for instantaneous results I think are probably a little bit too high."


"I will tell you -- I mean, this is as I have come to know him -- he's been very clear to me, and not just in saying it, but in what his actions are, that his goal -- my view -- is to do the right thing by Pakistan. He's an extraordinary individual, and his ultimate -- his goals are -- his principles and goals are to do what's best for Pakistan. And everything he's done, our engagement, indicates that's absolutely the case."

 

[batmannow]

Strong words of praise for COAS Kiyani by Adm. Mullen:

"He's undertaken operations that were not ongoing, certainly, when our meetings started a few months ago. February, I think, was the first time I met with him. Clearly, he's a chief of staff of the army who's got a challenge of a conventional threat from India, which he still recognizes, as well as a requirement to get at this counterinsurgency. And so he's moving in that direction.

I'm pleased that he's moving in that direction and that he is, actually, operating. And again, we're trying to figure out, you know, where -- how that fits into bringing pressure onto that border to minimize -- to work to minimize the cross-border operations from Pakistan into Afghanistan on the case of the insurgents. And I think it's going to -- it's just going to take some time. "

"Well, I think -- I think the impact is going to be long term. Clearly there are very significant differences in how you approach each different area in that part of the world. That's, quite frankly, part of the education process.

And having met with General Kayani several times, he's very consistent in what he's doing. He's thought this through, and he continues to move forward.

And in an area that involves, obviously, the Pak military, his authority is over the Frontier Corps as well, and so expectations for instantaneous results I think are probably a little bit too high."


"I will tell you -- I mean, this is as I have come to know him -- he's been very clear to me, and not just in saying it, but in what his actions are, that his goal -- my view -- is to do the right thing by Pakistan. He's an extraordinary individual, and his ultimate -- his goals are -- his principles and goals are to do what's best for Pakistan. And everything he's done, our engagement, indicates that's absolutely the case."

Russian Offensive Hailed in Mideast

By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, August 30, 2008;

washingtonpost.com

CAIRO -- For some in the Middle East, the images of Russian tanks rolling into Georgia in defiance of U.S. opposition have revived warm memories of the Cold War.
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad flew last week to Moscow, where he endorsed Russia's offensive in Georgia and, according to Russian officials, sought additional Russian weapon systems.
Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi's influential son, echoed the delight expressed in much of the Arab news media. "What happened in Georgia is a good sign, one that means America is no longer the sole world power setting the rules of the game," the younger Gaddafi was quoted as telling the Russian daily Kommersant. "There is a balance in the world now. Russia is resurging, which is good for us, for the entire Middle East."

In Turkey, an American and European ally that obtains more than two-thirds of its natural gas from Russia, the reaction was more complex. Turks watched as the United States, NATO and a divided European Union hesitated in the face of Russian military assertiveness, leaving them more doubtful than they already were about depending on the West to secure U.S.-backed alternative oil and gas supply lines.


"This Russian invasion of Georgia is a turning point in the relations of the Atlantic community with Russia, including, of course, Turkey," Ozden Sanberk, a former Turkish ambassador to Britain, said by telephone from Turkey. "There is a change in the paradigm, a change in assessment."

Since Aug. 8, when Russia sent troops and tanks across its southern border in a confrontation with Georgia's pro-Western government, many Turkish newspapers have urged the Turkish government to improve relations with Russia, in pragmatic acceptance of the possibility that Russia could directly or indirectly control most oil and gas supplies from Central Asia to Europe.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan for the past two weeks has sought to persuade leaders of Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia and Russia to put their political differences aside in the interest of keeping oil and gas flowing.

Russian leaders, angry at Turkish military aid to Georgia, repeatedly refused to take Erdogan's calls, Turkish news media reported.

Russia has been paying closer attention to the needs of the United States' least favorite Middle East countries, Syria and Iran. Russia's ambassador in Tehran, Alexander Sadovnikov, told Iranian news media this week that Russia was committed to helping Iran finish work on its Bushehr nuclear plant as soon as possible. At the same time, Iran's oil minister declared his country's eagerness to do more business with Russia's main energy company, Gazprom.

The United States has tried to discourage European countries and Turkey from turning to Iran for oil and gas. With Russia demonstrating its ability to control supplies through Georgia and the rest of the Caucasus, Iran's supplies are going to look more attractive to U.S. allies in Europe, analysts noted.

And with the United States and Russia at odds, Iran also can expect more help from Russia in blocking U.S. efforts at the U.N. Security Council and other international bodies to sanction Iran over its nuclear program, said Flynt Leverett, a former Bush administration Middle East policy director and now a senior fellow at the New America Foundation in Washington.

Especially with Assad's visit to Moscow, Russians are signaling that there is more they can do to undermine U.S. policies, Leverett said.
Syrian officials this week denied reports in Russian news media that Assad had sought Russian ballistic missiles on his visit to Moscow and had offered to host a Russian naval post again, as Syria did in the Cold War to ward off any attack by Israel.

Iranian officials, mindful of a possible U.S. or Israeli strike, also have voiced hopes of obtaining Russia's most advanced antiaircraft missile systems.

In Israel and the United States, there is "definitely rising concern Russia may go ahead and deliver those systems as a way of further indicating how unhappy it is with U.S. policy," Leverett said.

Russia, however, also has been building relations and trade with Israel, and has denied selling its most advanced systems to Syria or Iran. Syria itself is in indirect peace talks with Israel. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said last week that Russia was ready to sell Syria arms of a "defensive character that do not violate the strategic balance of power in the Middle East."

Israel said Prime Minister Ehud Olmert planned to travel to Russia to discuss any Syria-Russia arms deals, amid statements from Israeli officials that the arms could be used to bolster Syrian ally Hezbollah.

Middle East governments have experience with Russian-made weapons, which haven't worked so well, said Abdel-Moneim Said, director of the al-Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies in Cairo. Egyptians still blame their defeats in wars against Israel partly on their Russian-supplied weapons.

Many Arab analysts initially cheered Russia's flexing of its military muscles. An opinion piece in the United Arab Emirates-based Gulf News called it "long overdue." Editorials in some Arab news media this week and last expressed second thoughts, questioning whether Russia has the stability, surety of purpose or strength to be a leader among countries.
"All that ended up to be a kind of nostalgia, or looking for a new kind of Cold War, when there was not only one, single power dominating the world, the United States, and its ally, Israel," Said said.

Now, "there's a realization that Russia has a lot of interests with the West. Also that Russia is still a limited power," he said. "It's no match. There is no new Cold War coming."

Georgia and Russia Cut Diplomatic Ties
A version of this article appeared in print on August 30, 2008,
Copyright 2008 The New York Times Company


MOSCOW — The Georgian government broke off diplomatic relations with Russia on Friday and Russia responded by doing the same.
While the move was expected in the wake of the war this month, it was a significant political ripple in post-Soviet politics. Never before has Russia severed formal diplomatic ties with any of the other 14 republics that became independent states in 1991 after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

The countries will retain consular offices in each other’s territories, handling such matters as issuing passports and assisting their citizens with legal affairs, but the political ties will now be handled through intermediaries, a spokeswoman for Georgia’s Foreign Ministry said.
Georgia is now in talks with several countries as possible candidates to represent Georgia in Moscow, the ministry spokeswoman said, in the way, for example, that the Swiss Embassy in Tehran represents American interests in Iran, a country with which the United States has no diplomatic relations.

The Georgian Parliament passed a law on Thursday instructing the government to sever ties with Russia as one of seven points of protest to the Russian Army’s occupation of two separatist regions and a security zone around them, and Russian government recognition of the two regions as independent countries.
The law does not prohibit Russian and Georgian diplomats from meeting on the territory of third countries.

The other points abrogate all treaties allowing Russian troops to be present in Georgia as peacekeepers, with the exception of the European Union-brokered cease-fire accord that ended the war, and instruct the attorney general of Georgia to investigate allegations that Russian troops drove ethnic Georgians from villages in a campaign of “ethnic cleansing.”

The law, called “On the Occupation of Georgian Territories by Russia,” also characterizes the militias of the separatist regions as illegal armed formations.
Russia’s Foreign Ministry responded by saying that the severing of diplomatic relations would harm efforts to reach negotiated settlements. “Without such a channel for contacts, we will have difficulties trying to bring our points of view to each other’s attention,” the ministry spokesman, Andrei Nesterenko, said, according to the Russian news agency Interfax.

The diplomatic breach between Georgia and Russia was the first for Russia with a former Soviet state since 1991, according to Vyacheslav A. Nikonov, the director of the Polity Foundation, a Moscow research group.
In another diplomatic development, Abkhazia, which Russia recognized Tuesday, asked Russia on Friday to represent its interests abroad, Interfax reported. The region’s president, Sergei Bagapsh, said this provision would be included in a so-called friendship, cooperation and mutual assistance treaty that the enclave is preparing to sign with Russia. Russia is offering a similar agreement to South Ossetia.
Also on Friday, Russia’s president, Dmitri A. Medvedev, pressed for support for Russia’s military actions in Georgia from Central Asian leaders, whose countries’ ties with the West are now seen as more tenuous as their future energy exports are unlikely to travel in a westward direction, through Georgia. That leaves Russia, China and Iran as potential export routes.

Mr. Medvedev promised the Tajik president, Emomali Rahmon, Russian investment in hydroelectric plants and natural gas fields. He added that Tajikistan’s “reputation and role are significant and invariably belong to the sphere of Russia’s strategic interests,” Interfax reported.

The former Soviet president, Mikhail S. Gorbachev, issued a plea for calm calm as tensions rose between Russia and the West. “Stop, stop and again stop,” Mr. Gorbachev said Friday. “It is important to save everything that has been done in recent years.”


Dear commrads, the world is changing too fast, whatever these depressed western news media morans were saying, it isnt the right situation. they are & were , too afraid from RUSSIA. because this time they wont going to get any support against...RUSSIA, which is comming back after a long break on the world stage. most of the western powers are afraid of this fact, also western powers knows that USA Involved in afghanistan and in iraq and cant take russia head on.

Its, is the best time for PAKarmy to expolre and expolite these situations to its favour and to seek independence from west +usa mixed mafia. and can let pakistani awam live in thier independent country with its independent adminstration. i wish, very best of luck to GEN.KIYANI in the quest of our independnce.

 

[fatman17]

Its, is the best time for PAKarmy to expolre and expolite these situations to its favour and to seek independence from west +usa mixed mafia. and can let pakistani awam live in thier independent country with its independent adminstration. i wish, very best of luck to GEN.KIYANI in the quest of our independnce.

so my dear friend u r finally convinced! good for you!

 

[batmannow]

Its, is the best time for PAKarmy to expolre and expolite these situations to its favour and to seek independence from west +usa mixed mafia. and can let pakistani awam live in thier independent country with its independent adminstration. i wish, very best of luck to GEN.KIYANI in the quest of our independnce.

so my dear friend u r finally convinced! good for you!

Dear fatman17, sir
I would like to make it clear that, i always convinced to the above posted point, but i have a lots of reservations about our current adminstration.
My sole, aim was to see pakistan walking proudly on its own legs on the world stage.

Well at the same time, i dont like to see CIA getting more and more influence in to day to day affairs in pakistan. i like, to see PAKARMY leading a revolution in pakistan with the help of patriotic civil masses.

The current, westrn sponsred democratic system is not & was not or cannot bring any good for its uneducated, emotional poor nation. we cannot give whole sole powers to these croupt, selffish and selfcentered politicians. as this was tried many times in the history of pakistan?

therefore, i think its the right time for PAKARMY to think about it, as GEN.KIYANI now in a driving seat i want to support him for the best intersts of pakistan. but at the same time ,i would like to see him learning from MUSHARAFs mistakes. ......

 

[fatman17]

but i have a lots of reservations about our current adminstration.

you are not alone my friend!

 

[the saint]

The timming of the meeting and the circumstances hint towards certain other important aspects. What i believe it is the inherent fear of the US leadership surrounding the regime change in Pakistan. They clearly understand that after the exit of Gen Mush , kiyani is their strongest bet in the country. With the vivid political picture in Pakistan what they wanted were assurances that Pakistan will not retract on US war against terror. US is actually stuck in Afghanistan , what they fear is a fate similar to the Russians. The only country thay can blame for know is Pakistan , if there is a covert invovement of any other regional players(i.e Russians and Chinese) US would not highlight it especially with the presedential election around the corner. Rise in attacks , georgian crisis , SCO and a realization, and open acceptance of Pakistani officials regarding involvement of a foreign hand or hands in militancy in Pakistan gets them worried. Consequently what better place to try and intimidate Gen Kiyani then an aircraft carrier in the Indian Ocean.

 

[fatman17]

The timming of the meeting and the circumstances hint towards certain other important aspects. What i believe it is the inherent fear of the US leadership surrounding the regime change in Pakistan. They clearly understand that after the exit of Gen Mush , kiyani is their strongest bet in the country. With the vivid political picture in Pakistan what they wanted were assurances that Pakistan will not retract on US war against terror. US is actually stuck in Afghanistan , what they fear is a fate similar to the Russians. The only country thay can blame for know is Pakistan , if there is a covert invovement of any other regional players(i.e Russians and Chinese) US would not highlight it especially with the presedential election around the corner. Rise in attacks , georgian crisis , SCO and a realization, and open acceptance of Pakistani officials regarding involvement of a foreign hand or hands in militancy in Pakistan gets them worried. Consequently what better place to try and intimidate Gen Kiyani then an aircraft carrier in the Indian Ocean.

what u say is generally correct but this intimidation angle has only been brought up by the media!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

what u say is generally correct but this intimidation angle has only been brought up by the media!

I would agree - if anything, Gen. Kiyani does not come across as the kind to be 'intimidated'.

Pakistan has continued to show irritation with the US attempts to explain away the airs strike that killed 11 FC soldiers.

The US attempt to bully Pakistan with the 'ISI revelations was met with Pakistan's own counter accusations of the US not doing anything about destabilizing elements in Pakistan finding sanctuary in Afghanistan, and US inaction over taking out Mehsud (TWICE!) when contacted with specific coordinates.

I think Mullen's comments about Gen. Kiyani keeping to his 'plan' in terms of what he has outlined throughout his 5 or so meetings with him, speaks to the continuity of policy Gen. Kiyani is following, not about doing a volte-face because of a pre-planned meeting on an AC carrier.

 

[fatman17]

I would agree - if anything, Gen. Kiyani does not come across as the kind to be 'intimidated'.

Pakistan has continued to show irritation with the US attempts to explain away the airs strike that killed 11 FC soldiers.

The US attempt to bully Pakistan with the 'ISI revelations was met with Pakistan's own counter accusations of the US not doing anything about destabilizing elements in Pakistan finding sanctuary in Afghanistan, and US inaction over taking out Mehsud (TWICE!) when contacted with specific coordinates.

I think Mullen's comments about Gen. Kiyani keeping to his 'plan' in terms of what he has outlined throughout his 5 or so meetings with him, speaks to the continuity of policy Gen. Kiyani is following, not about doing a volte-face because of a pre-planned meeting on an AC carrier.

we should thank our stars that musharraf made the correct choice for his successor as CoAS!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

we should thank our stars that musharraf made the correct choice for his successor as CoAS!

That is quite true, but there is a limit to how much Gen. Kiyani can accomplish in 3 years.

What is more important is continuity of policies, the results if which I believe we are seeing in the PAF, and to that extent I am concerned over the direction a 'President Zardari' will take.

How much influence will Gen. Kiyani have over the shortlist of candidates to be his successor? How much influence does he have to mold the field of prospective candidates within the PA (through promotions etc.) before he leaves?

Gen. Kiyani has started the transformation, and laid out the path, but it is equally important that our political leadership not deviate from that for shortsighted political gains.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It might seem counterintuitive to the politicians, but a thorough professional, and well respected and highly qualified candidate for COAS, would in fact by far pose lower risk to the Civilian government, than someone who may have tried to ingratiate himself with the politicians.

The latter sort of candidate's attempts at currying favor indicate a hunger for power and an ambition that is precisely what the Politicians should be trying to avoid when selecting the COAS, though I doubt they will be able to get beyond their insecurities to do so.

 

[Munir]

It might seem counterintuitive to the politicians, but a thorough professional, and well respected and highly qualified candidate for COAS, would in fact by far pose lower risk to the Civilian government, than someone who may have tried to ingratiate himself with the politicians.

The latter sort of candidate's attempts at currying favor indicate a hunger for power and an ambition that is precisely what the Politicians should be trying to avoid when selecting the COAS, though I doubt they will be able to get beyond their insecurities to do so.

I disagree. Not to make points but to show how even in the west people with visions or ideals are used by those that are corrupt or fake... Let us stay with Mushy. He did not grab power, he had the choice to die with the naiton or to resist. He did pretty remarkable and noble job but the fact is that politicians (aka thieves) cannot be dumped that long. Somehow people tend to think that democracy or election means freedom... They think that people will help them but the reality is that they are just there to get more wealth. In the west it is more hidden but it is the same as mr10%... I hate dictatorships and non elected rulers (the famous one person to elect cause hos father was a leader (assad etc)... But if have to be honest... Democracy is hardly much better. Every party has its thieves.

 

[araz]

Avery appropriate post. There are no angels in politicas or in heirarchy. Even the so called heroes of this and that jehad made money from their appointment. It is the lesser of the two evils which we hope will be a better bet for pakistan.
Araz

 

[fatman17]

It might seem counterintuitive to the politicians, but a thorough professional, and well respected and highly qualified candidate for COAS, would in fact by far pose lower risk to the Civilian government, than someone who may have tried to ingratiate himself with the politicians.

The latter sort of candidate's attempts at currying favor indicate a hunger for power and an ambition that is precisely what the Politicians should be trying to avoid when selecting the COAS, though I doubt they will be able to get beyond their insecurities to do so.

our recent history is replete with such examples of currying favours and trying to pick pliant generals as CoAS! bhutto/zia, nawaz/musharraf, nawaz/zia-ud-din and many other examples which thank-God did not bear fruit.

 

[batmannow]

our recent history is replete with such examples of currying favours and trying to pick pliant generals as CoAS! bhutto/zia, nawaz/musharraf, nawaz/zia-ud-din and many other examples which thank-God did not bear fruit.

Dear fatman17, sir
What i dont understand is, why most of these genrals always needed , crupt politicians? 60 years of the indepence of pakistan, why cant we go for a revolution.
Which can produce, a real patrotic admin to run pakistan.