'U.S keen to build fighter jets in India'

[Abingdonboy]

So you are saying f3r would better than ash. But with all weapons and training package ash will still cost 40 to 50% less than rafale. We know that French weapons are exorbitant whereas Americans are cheapest in west.
One favourable aspect of 18 are its growlers unmatched ew capability and engine tot.

If ash cost even 30% less than rafale we should go for it.

30% less? There isn't a chance the F-18ASH (an entirely unfunded and unproven machine) will be anything like 30% cheaper than the Rafale- what utter nonsense. The price difference will be very negligable mark my words and for a near identical price you are getting a plane (F-18ASH) that is perhaps 75% as capable as the Rafale, imfringes India's soverigenty and comes with zero industrial benefits- is that a good deal to you?

I said before.. nothing will change.. even LSA is not agreed.. I said right DM MP is a man who is blocking all such foundation agreements inspite of what he says in public,,

There is no mention of so called what could be offered as pre guaranteed technology transfer point under MII..

Thats why i said before inspite of what media claims, its the french side which is not using any PR activity at all and is facing the flak and bashing from US,Russian,Swedish and Indian parties/people/journalist/analysts to Defense reporters .. and yet they are slowly doing what they do best.. quietly try and finish the deal with MOD and sign it ..

@Abingdonboy
Is it not the case where media over hyped US-India relationship whereas ground realities and realistic expectation meant if such cooperation has to come it will take more like 5-10 years what media and folks like Ajay Shukla is trying to say will come in days and months..

Well said, this sort of thing happens before every high-level Indo-US meet (whether it be heads of state of high level cabinet ministers) and then things die down until the next meeting. Inbetween there is almost negliable progress on these much hyped projects/deals/policies and one is always left underwhelmed at the outcome of any such bilateral meet- they ALWAYS fail to live up to the expectations. It is illustrative of the Indo-US relationship as a whole, there is a lot of "buzz" and noise around it but there is little tanigble progress to be seen.

You know i did not write before one small point,,

we have to be hypocrites really if we do agree for F18s case of 7.5G when we have actually manhandled, harassed and shown step son treatment to our LCA and has been insisting higher Gs as part of its FOC....

Its indeed a shame that doing so we created such a mess of delaying our own homegrown jet which by now we could have then inducted by increasing its productivity per year to a higher number..

The nation needs to be told why we have higher ASQRs for Tejas and relaxed ones for F18s if we really agree for 18s.. Perhaps MOD themselves needs to say that..

Or may be defense reporters or even like Mr Shukla should explain how its acceptable for 18s to have 7.5G versus Tejas 8.5Gs....

It isn't the IAF to blame- they rejected the F-18 remember? It is this GoI/MoD that is taking the unprecedented step of inviting fighters that have already FAILED their own technical criteria, it's total absurdity but these guys are so eager to prove their "decisive" and "innovative" credentials. It's like you have given the keys to your car to a 5 year old, don't be surprised when they crash it.

The present government will be lame duck by October

It already is.

Here we ALSO need to wait and see the policies of NEXT US President

The next POTUS will be in office in Jan 20 2017 and they will take at least 8-12 months to get on top of their job so, best case scenerio, India gets such ToT clearance 24 months from now and from there it will take Boeing and the MoD 3-4 years to get to an agreeable contract (if it is possible) and first deliveries will only be 36 months after that date and God knows how long it will take Boeing to set up production in India.

The timelines just aren't agreeable from an Indian perspective.

@PARIKRAMA

DM Parrikar takes his brief from the PM

PM only goes by -- Things Done / Not Done : ie Only RESULTS matter to PM

Parrikar cannot stall either Rafale or US deals for ever

If the Bureaucracy tells the PM that Parrikar is being obstinate then he will have
to go BACK to GOA (for fishing and sun bathing )

The PM cannot micro-manage every department, there is great scope for Parrikar to derail projects and work to his own agenda. IMO if Parrikar was 100% focused on the IAF's needs the Rafale deal would have been signed a few months back- he is playing spoilsport and trying to be too clever for the role he occupies.

 

[zebra7]

It will be only one US planes... That too max 160 odd.. For IAF..
816 planes will make only 45 sqn (18 planes each sqn).. That is bare minimum IAF will have in one sqn..

Also... The number will differ if it's involving MII
Su 30.. 312... May go upto 340
Tejas.. 120.... Will go close to 200 (if f18 is chosen)
Rafale ... 36+90..may go upto 200 (if F16 is chosen)
F16/F18..150-160
Total.. 312+120+126+160+80(rafale or Tejas)= 798.. Planes... Till 2027..
Add 50 mirage +62 mig29 + 115 Jags..=227 planes..
Replacement of those will be from tejas/rafale as decided later on..

So total planes will be 798+227= 1025... Approx 57 sqn by 2030 max..

Brother Why bringing same thing again and again, when it already cleared.

1. No F-16 at all, which have been rejected by IAF
2. No F-18 SH for IAF, which have been rejected by IAF, and Growler is not available for India.
3 For IN, no F-16, because it don't have any carrier version.
4. For IN, F-18 can compete, but still chances are low, because Rafale-M will have comonality with the Rafale in weapons and Infra, and repair MRO facilities.

In Short do you know, why USA is pressing hard for LSA, BECA, and CISMOA, so that F-35 could be placed in the competition, because without these pacts, you cannot take full advantage of the F-35, and without F-35, there is lame change of any US Bird, which is very clear with the study by the US person named Ashley J Tellis during MMRCA, and was published in a book called DOGFIGHT, google it and read and clear all the doubts.

 

[KingRaj]

F-18 cost Will be 40-50% lower than Rafale

 

[zebra7]

F-18 cost Will be 40-50% lower than Rafale

Backup your Claim with facts and figure, and include, the weapons cost, training, and Infrastructure, and operational cost.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Believe me I would like nothing better than 100+ Rafales in IAF colors and it might be the case going forward. All I am saying is that Deal for additional jets (not additional Tejas line) will be through competitive evaluation. It wont be as structured and detailed as original MMRCA. I am not clear on the details yet but expect a shorter evaluation period lasting six months to year max. Most of the jets involved are already evaluated and catalogued with only the enhancements left to be tested.

This is illogical as Boeing (and LM) are in no postion to make an offer to the MoD because of the aforementioned lack of ToT clearances to India and now this much hyped visit of Carter is over with not even a peep on the matter one can be sure this issue will be kicked over to the next administration and thus we are at least 18-24 months away from any such clearanc ebeing given. Thus the hopes for a "quick selection" involving the American OEMs is simply not viable.

Honestly, comparing the Rafale to the F-18/F-16 is false equivalency whilst Dassualt have already made a bid to the MoD to make a follow-on 90 Rafales in India with Indian partners Boeing and LM are a good 5 years away from being in a similar place and are still insisting they would have 100% ownership of their production unit in India. There is just no comparison to be made and the most absurd part of all of this is that it's not like the US is offereing the F-22, the F-18 and F-16 were REJECTED by the IAF on technical grounds a long time ago so less capable aircraft (that aren't even cheap) are really on the same page as the Rafale? This is a farce and it makes my blood boil that Parrikar is playing these devious games at the cost of the IAF and India's national security.

Budget constraints are not nonsense. unspent capex are not accrued yearly but are diverted as we run a deficit. We dont only have jet procurement programs to see through but there are 100s if not 1000s of programs waiting clearance and funds.

What I mean to say is that the assertion that the IAF is squeezed for funds is highly questionable in the present day and going into the future this will be a non-issue. This deal is about getting the best fighter for the IAF and maximum industrial benefits for India, it is only because the Rafale's competitors have created this "price frame" that every article/discussion is centred around the cost element now.

In an equal fight, all things being equal, the Rafale offer would beat the F-18/16 offers any day of the week in terms of the product, industrial package for India and would score equal where costs were concerned.

F-18 cost Will be 40-50% lower than Rafale

A complete LIE, provide supporting evidence (which you will not be able to do).

 

[randomradio]

How are they obsolete.

The APG-79 is a decade old. More advanced export grade radars are SABR and RACR, but even those are obsolete compared to newer radars coming out today. Out of all the known Western radars, the APG-81 is the gold standard. The EL/M-2052, Captor-E and RBE-2AA are dark horses. Apparently, the Israelis wanted the EL/M-2052 instead of the APG-81 on their F-35s because they considered even the APG-81 to be too old, but the US did not relent.

The Aim-9X is deficient in range, the Block III which should have fixed the issue was cancelled. The Aim-120D has obsolete seekers and propulsion.

When it comes to BVR missiles, the gold standard in the West is the Meteor followed by the I-Derby ER.

When it comes to WVR missiles, the gold standard in the West is the Aim-132 ASRAAM followed by the Python-V.

Anything apart from the radar and missiles I mentioned are a waste of time. At least as far as missiles are concerned, this is the reason why ASRAAM, Python V and I-Derby ER were the last few missiles that the IAF has purchased from the West.

Meteor, ASRAAM, Python V and I-Derby ER are available to the IAF. It would be better if we switch the APG-79 or RACR/SABR or any other American radar with a new EL/M-2052 model in case we order an American jet.

Not yet, this is like saying GTX 970 is obsolete since GTX 1080 is coming out. The fact of the matter is that GTX 970 will still perform all the tasks conceivable.

If you set up a competition between two people with two computers, the first person representing the GTX 970 and the second GTX 1080. Then we say the reward is the one with the faster computer gets to live, let's see how quickly the guy with the GTX 970 is going to run away from the battlefield.

We are not buying the jets merely to perform some tasks, we are buying jets for a competition, a competition where only the winner survives. The SH and F-16 cannot survive against the PLAAF regardless of the huge advantage IAF has against the PLAAF.

 

[Masterhunter]

Brother Why bringing same thing again and again, when it already cleared.

1. No F-16 at all, which have been rejected by IAF
2. No F-18 SH for IAF, which have been rejected by IAF, and Growler is not available for India.
3 For IN, no F-16, because it don't have any carrier version.
4. For IN, F-18 can compete, but still chances are low, because Rafale-M will have comonality with the Rafale in weapons and Infra, and repair MRO facilities.

In Short do you know, why USA is pressing hard for LSA, BECA, and CISMOA, so that F-35 could be placed in the competition, because without these pacts, you cannot take full advantage of the F-35, and without F-35, there is lame change of any US Bird, which is very clear with the study by the US person named Ashley J Tellis during MMRCA, and was published in a book called DOGFIGHT, google it and read and clear all the doubts.

What I quoted above is "if and if" an American jet is flying in IAF... It will be only one, wither f16 or F18..
In my book also, it will be very unlikely... But yet we can never be so sure...

In my view ... It will su30/ rafale/LCA only...
Su30 350,
Rafale 200
LCA 200
FGFA/PAKFA 60....
This will be by 2030..
Also Indian navy may buy 60-80 odd rafale by 2030..

 

[Spectre]

This is illogical as Boeing (and LM) are in no postion to make an offer to the MoD because of the aforementioned lack of ToT clearances to India and now this much hyped visit of Carter is over with not even a peep on the matter one can be sure this issue will be kicked over to the next administration and thus we are at least 18-24 months away from any such clearanc ebeing given. Thus the hopes for a "quick selection" involving the American OEMs is simply not viable.

Honestly, comparing the Rafale to the F-18/F-16 is false equivalency whilst Dassualt have already made a bid to the MoD to make a follow-on 90 Rafales in India with Indian partners Boeing and LM are a good 5 years away from being in a similar place and are still insisting they would have 100% ownership of their production unit in India. There is just no comparison to be made and the most absurd part of all of this is that it's not like the US is offereing the F-22, the F-18 and F-16 were REJECTED by the IAF on technical grounds a long time ago so less capable aircraft (that aren't even cheap) are really on the same page as the Rafale? This is a farce and it makes my blood boil that Parrikar is playing these devious games at the cost of the IAF and India's national security.



What I mean to say is that the assertion that the IAF is squeezed for funds is highly questionable in the present day and going into the future this will be a non-issue. This deal is about getting the best fighter for the IAF and maximum industrial benefits for India, it is only because the Rafale's competitors have created this "price frame" that every article/discussion is centred around the cost element now.

In an equal fight, all things being equal, the Rafale offer would beat the F-18/16 offers any day of the week in terms of the product, industrial package for India and would score equal where costs were concerned.


A complete LIE, provide supporting evidence (which you will not be able to do).

look mate! I am just a messenger who has been following this deal because of the financial angle. I hear certain things in the grapevine and pass it along so don't shoot me and take it easy.

While your reasoning might be solid it is ultimately upto MoD to decide and they alone have all the facts not the defence analysts and certainly not the twitterati or bloggers.

The general perception which I gather is that Rafale deal including the MII component is languishing because of two major issues:

1. 2 Billion USD price divergence
2. Indian partner preferred by DA is controversial. MoD irrespective of it's make in india hoopla prefers HAL to do the heavy lifting

I agree that F-16s are a long shot because of the commonality with PAF however F-18 raised eyebrows because of the level of ToT they were willing to offer but later backtracked on.

If you set up a competition between two people with two computers, the first person representing the GTX 970 and the second GTX 1080. Then we say the reward is the one with the faster computer gets to live, let's see how quickly the guy with the GTX 970 is going to run away from the battlefield.

We are not buying the jets merely to perform some tasks, we are buying jets for a competition, a competition where only the winner survives. The SH and F-16 cannot survive against the PLAAF regardless of the huge advantage IAF has against the PLAAF.

This is a selective one on one scenario of A2A role. 90% of the times roles are different or the slight advantage is countered by other factors.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

oh some data as usual to help all folks

Brazil – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Aircraft
Media/Public Contact: Lorna Jons (703) 604-6618
Transmittal No: 09-35
WASHINGTON --- Today the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Brazil of 28 F/A-18E Super Hornet Aircraft, eight F/A-18F Super Hornet Aircraft, 72 F414-GE-400 installed engines, a host of spare parts and munitions at an estimated value of $7.0 billion.

The Government of Brazil has requested proposals from several foreign suppliers, including the United States, to provide the next generation fighter for the Brazilian Air Force. In this “FX-2” competition, the Government of Brazil has yet to select the United States Navy-Boeing proposal.

This notification is being made in advance of receipt of a letter of request so that, in the event that the US Navy-Boeing proposal is selected, the United States might move as quickly as possible to implement the sale.

If the Government of Brazil selects the U.S. Navy-Boeing proposal, the Government of Brazil will request a possible sale of:

-- 28 F/A-18E Super Hornet Aircraft,
-- eight F/A-18F Super Hornet Aircraft,
-- 72 F414-GE-400 installed engines,
-- four F414-GE-400 spare engines,
-- 36 AN/APG-79 Radar Systems,
-- 36 M61A2 20mm Gun Systems,
-- 36 AN/ALR-67(V) three Radar Warning Receivers,
-- 144 LAU-127 Launchers,
-- 44 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS),
-- 28 AIM-120C-7 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM),
-- 28 AIM-9M Sidewinder Missiles,
-- 60 GBU-31/32 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM),
-- 36 AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapons (JSOW),
-- 10 AGM-88B HARM Missiles, and
-- 36 AN/ASQ-228 (V2) Advanced Targeting Forward-Looking Infrared (ATFLIR) Pods.

Also included are
-- 36 AN/ALQ-214 Radio Frequency Countermeasures.
-- 40 AN/ALE-47 Electronic Warfare Countermeasures Systems,
-- 112 AN/ALE-50 Towed Decoys,
-- Joint Mission Planning System,
-- support equipment,
-- spare and repair parts,
-- personnel training and training equipment,
-- ferry and tanker support,
-- flight test,
-- software support,
-- publications and technical documents,
-- U.S. Government and contractor engineering,
-- technical and logistics support services, and
-- other related elements of logistics and program support.

This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been, and continues to be, an important force for political stability and economic progress in South America.

Brazil needs these aircraft to meet current and future threats. The proposed sale of F/A-18E/F aircraft will enhance Brazil’s tactical aviation capabilities. An increase in capability will be accrued primarily due to the larger number of aircraft and the larger range and endurance of the F/A-18E/F. Brazil will have no difficulty absorbing these aircraft into its aircraft inventory. The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The principal contractors will be:
--The Boeing Company St. Louis, Mo.
--General Electric Aircraft Engines Lynn, Mass.
--Northrop Grumman Corporation El Segundo, Calif.
--Raytheon Corporation El Segundo, Calif.
--Lockheed Martin Bethesda, Md.

Offsets agreements associated with this proposed sale are expected; however, specific agreements are undetermined and will be defined during negotiations between the purchaser and contractor.

Implementation of this sale will require approximately eight contractor representatives to provide technical and logistics support in Brazil for two years. U.S. Government and contractor representatives will also participate in program management and technical reviews for one-week intervals twice semi-annually.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.

Brazil – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Aircraft | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

+++++
36 jets for USD 7 Bn..

• Add Indian customizations...
• Infrastructure + 2 bases
• ETC

Now,

• 2 bases would cost easily USD 2.5 Bn plus
• Customizations would cost minimum USD 1 Bn
• more weapons will be ordered as its too small contingent so add 0.8-1bn usd irrespective of any discount

SO grand total will be 7+2.5+1+0.8... = USD 11.3 Bn

Thats the approximation..

Lets say its a case of discounts too.. Discounts by

10 percent - USD 10.17 Bn +
20 percent - USD 9.04 Bn +
25 percent - USD 7.91 Bn +

++
How is it cheaper than Rafale.. and that also the claims by a huge margin........



edited as random pointed brazillian deal had 100 percent offset

 

[randomradio]

This is a selective one on one scenario of A2A role. 90% of the times roles are different or the slight advantage is countered by other factors.

It depends on what you are comparing the SH to. If you are comparing it to the Chinese Flankers, then don't. The Flankers will eat the SH alive. The Chinese are already moving on to newer models of the Flanker. Even Boeing promoted the SH as the low end to MKI's high end.

If you are comparing the SH to the Rafale, then don't. Rafale will eat the SH alive. Rafale's avionics and performance is next gen.

As for SEAD/DEAD, the SH is obsolete in that department even against current generation SAMs today let alone anything that's operational even 5 years from now. Rafale will be obsolete when it comes to SEAD/DEAD by 2030, but will continue to be moderately relevant in A2A for at least 10 more years after that.

We are buying the current crop of jets primarily for the A2A role. Once A2A and SEAD/DEAD are taken care of, we can even send Hawks in, figuratively. We don't need the SH at that time.

Basically the competition is like this:
- We are buying Rafale for MII.

- In case, the Americans give us a good deal, we will buy their jet too. In case the SAAB offer is really good, then we choose Gripen. These aircraft are dependent on the progress of domestic projects like LCA and naturally the finances of the nation.

And this is how the deal can be split into for now.
- IAF: 36 Rafale flyaway, 90 Rafale MII
IN: 54 Rafale-M

- 90 SH/F-16/Gripen plus a possibility of 18 flyaway as long as the deal is good. Boeing wants to sell their SH to the IN, but the IN is not foolish enough to do that so it won't happen.

Total possibility for the imported jets - 270+18 = 288. No different from what Parrikar said about inducting 300 new fighter jets from foreign lines.

Basically Parrikar said the plan is to induct one or two MMRCAs. That one MMRCA is guaranteed to be Rafale. So it is up to the US Congress if they want a piece of the pie.

 

[GURU DUTT]

hello guys my regards to all old and new members

so what are the catual fly away cost of FA-18EF and rafale and there over all costs and what weap[ons are we going to get please give a brief chart so a noob like me can understand easly thanks

 

[randomradio]

oh some data as usual to help all folks

Brazil – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Aircraft
Media/Public Contact: Lorna Jons (703) 604-6618
Transmittal No: 09-35
WASHINGTON --- Today the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Brazil of 28 F/A-18E Super Hornet Aircraft, eight F/A-18F Super Hornet Aircraft, 72 F414-GE-400 installed engines, a host of spare parts and munitions at an estimated value of $7.0 billion.

The Government of Brazil has requested proposals from several foreign suppliers, including the United States, to provide the next generation fighter for the Brazilian Air Force. In this “FX-2” competition, the Government of Brazil has yet to select the United States Navy-Boeing proposal.

This notification is being made in advance of receipt of a letter of request so that, in the event that the US Navy-Boeing proposal is selected, the United States might move as quickly as possible to implement the sale.

If the Government of Brazil selects the U.S. Navy-Boeing proposal, the Government of Brazil will request a possible sale of:

-- 28 F/A-18E Super Hornet Aircraft,
-- eight F/A-18F Super Hornet Aircraft,
-- 72 F414-GE-400 installed engines,
-- four F414-GE-400 spare engines,
-- 36 AN/APG-79 Radar Systems,
-- 36 M61A2 20mm Gun Systems,
-- 36 AN/ALR-67(V) three Radar Warning Receivers,
-- 144 LAU-127 Launchers,
-- 44 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS),
-- 28 AIM-120C-7 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM),
-- 28 AIM-9M Sidewinder Missiles,
-- 60 GBU-31/32 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM),
-- 36 AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapons (JSOW),
-- 10 AGM-88B HARM Missiles, and
-- 36 AN/ASQ-228 (V2) Advanced Targeting Forward-Looking Infrared (ATFLIR) Pods.

Also included are
-- 36 AN/ALQ-214 Radio Frequency Countermeasures.
-- 40 AN/ALE-47 Electronic Warfare Countermeasures Systems,
-- 112 AN/ALE-50 Towed Decoys,
-- Joint Mission Planning System,
-- support equipment,
-- spare and repair parts,
-- personnel training and training equipment,
-- ferry and tanker support,
-- flight test,
-- software support,
-- publications and technical documents,
-- U.S. Government and contractor engineering,
-- technical and logistics support services, and
-- other related elements of logistics and program support.

This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been, and continues to be, an important force for political stability and economic progress in South America.

Brazil needs these aircraft to meet current and future threats. The proposed sale of F/A-18E/F aircraft will enhance Brazil’s tactical aviation capabilities. An increase in capability will be accrued primarily due to the larger number of aircraft and the larger range and endurance of the F/A-18E/F. Brazil will have no difficulty absorbing these aircraft into its aircraft inventory. The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The principal contractors will be:
--The Boeing Company St. Louis, Mo.
--General Electric Aircraft Engines Lynn, Mass.
--Northrop Grumman Corporation El Segundo, Calif.
--Raytheon Corporation El Segundo, Calif.
--Lockheed Martin Bethesda, Md.

Offsets agreements associated with this proposed sale are expected; however, specific agreements are undetermined and will be defined during negotiations between the purchaser and contractor.

Implementation of this sale will require approximately eight contractor representatives to provide technical and logistics support in Brazil for two years. U.S. Government and contractor representatives will also participate in program management and technical reviews for one-week intervals twice semi-annually.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.

Brazil – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Aircraft | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

+++++
36 jets for USD 7 Bn..

• Add Indian customizations...
• Infrastructure + 2 bases
• Offsets at 50 percent
• ETC

Now,

• 2 bases would cost easily USD 2.5 Bn plus
• Customizations would cost minimum USD 1 Bn
• Offsets would jack up price as normally its 30 percent not 50 percent.. so add minimum USD 1Bn

SO grand total will be 7+2.5+1+1+... = USD 11Bn +

Thats the approximation..

Lets say its a case of discounts too.. Discounts by

10 percent - USD 9.9 Bn +
20 percent - USD 8.8 Bn +
25 percent - USD 7.7 Bn +

more weapons will be ordered as its too small contingent so add 0.8-1bn usd irrespective of any discount
++
How is it cheaper than Rafale.. and that also the claims by a huge margin........

The Brazil deal came with 100% offsets.

Btw, the SH that is meant to be sold to India will come with a full 9G airframe.

 

[Spectre]

It depends on what you are comparing the SH to. If you are comparing it to the Chinese Flankers, then don't. The Flankers will eat the SH alive. The Chinese are already moving on to newer models of the Flanker. Even Boeing promoted the SH as the low end to MKI's high end.

If you are comparing the SH to the Rafale, then don't. Rafale will eat the SH alive. Rafale's avionics and performance is next gen.

As for SEAD/DEAD, the SH is obsolete in that department even against current generation SAMs today let alone anything that's operational even 5 years from now. Rafale will be obsolete when it comes to SEAD/DEAD by 2030, but will continue to be moderately relevant in A2A for at least 10 more years after that.

We are buying the current crop of jets primarily for the A2A role. Once A2A and SEAD/DEAD are taken care of, we can even send Hawks in, figuratively. We don't need the SH at that time.

Basically the competition is like this:
- We are buying Rafale for MII.

- In case, the Americans give us a good deal, we will buy their jet too. In case the SAAB offer is really good, then we choose Gripen. These aircraft are dependent on the progress of domestic projects like LCA and naturally the finances of the nation.

And this is how the deal can be split into for now.
- IAF: 36 Rafale flyaway, 90 Rafale MII
IN: 54 Rafale-M

- 90 SH/F-16/Gripen plus a possibility of 18 flyaway as long as the deal is good. Boeing wants to sell their SH to the IN, but the IN is not foolish enough to do that so it won't happen.

Total possibility for the imported jets - 270+18 = 288. No different from what Parrikar said about inducting 300 new fighter jets from foreign lines.

Basically Parrikar said the plan is to induct one or two MMRCAs. That one MMRCA is guaranteed to be Rafale. So it is up to the US Congress if they want a piece of the pie.

Just a slight correction. There will only be one foreign line. 36 Rafales are done off the shelf. Remaining would be from anyone of the suitors. Thats all I can say

 

[randomradio]

hello guys my regards to all old and new members

so what are the catual fly away cost of FA-18EF and rafale and there over all costs and what weap[ons are we going to get please give a brief chart so a noob like me can understand easly thanks

There's no valid comparison between the two. The Rafale comes with next gen avionics.

The SH doesn't have anything like the Spectra suite, internal IRST etc. Installing all the stuff the basic Rafale already has will increase the unit price by many tens of millions of dollars.

Building a Rafale equivalent sensor fusion engine will cost billions and at least a decades worth of work.

The French are developing technologies for the Rafale that's to be introduced over the next 5 years that even the F-35 won't have until after 2025, probably 2030, let alone the SH.

So it's difficult to quantify and put a price when comparing a 4.5th gen fighter and a 5th gen fighter.

If the Bureaucracy tells the PM that Parrikar is being obstinate then he will have to go BACK to GOA (for fishing and sun bathing )

No such thing. Modi simply can't overrule Parrikar without reason. India comes first, everything next.

1) Dassualt has already submitted their proposal to make 90 Rafales in India- Boeing is about 4 years away from being in such a position (if they ever get the ToT clearances from the USG which is doubtful in itself)

The MII deals are aimed to be done within a year.

Just a slight correction. There will only be one foreign line. 36 Rafales are done off the shelf. Remaining would be from anyone of the suitors. Thats all I can say

Just go by what Parrikar says-
India to select one or more fighter aircraft, to be built by private sector under Make in India initiative - The Hindu

“Under the Make in India process we may have one or two more jet fighter plants in India by the private sector,” Mr. Parrikar said

Rafale has already been chosen as the first fighter. They haven't yet announced it to the public.

The Times Of India

"The Rafale is a major project for India and France. It will pave the way for an unprecedented industrial and technological cooperation, including 'Make in India', for the next 40 years. Agreeing on the technicalities of this arrangement obviously takes time, but we are on the right track", Hollande told PTI in an interview ahead of his three-day visit beginning Sunday.

This continuous rhetoric about Boeing, LM and SAAB is only for the second fighter line. And this deal has to go a long way before anything will happen. I'm not a fan of the second line of course. In fact, if the LSA works out, Rafale may stop at 90 jets MII and the second MII won't happen at all.

 

[Spectre]

There's no valid comparison between the two. The Rafale comes with next gen avionics.

The SH doesn't have anything like the Spectra suite, internal IRST etc. Installing all the stuff the basic Rafale already has will increase the unit price by many tens of millions of dollars.

Building a Rafale equivalent sensor fusion engine will cost billions and at least a decades worth of work.

The French are developing technologies for the Rafale that's to be introduced over the next 5 years that even the F-35 won't have until after 2025, probably 2030, let alone the SH.

So it's difficult to quantify and put a price when comparing a 4.5th gen fighter and a 5th gen fighter.



No such thing. Modi simply can't overrule Parrikar without reason. India comes first, everything next.



The MII deals are aimed to be done within a year.



Just go by what Parrikar says-
India to select one or more fighter aircraft, to be built by private sector under Make in India initiative - The Hindu


Rafale has already been chosen as the first fighter. They haven't yet announced it to the public.

The Times Of India


This continuous rhetoric about Boeing, LM and SAAB is only for the second fighter line. And this deal has to go a long way before anything will happen. I'm not a fan of the second line of course. In fact, if the LSA works out, Rafale may stop at 90 jets MII and the second MII won't happen at all.

I don't know why I have to keep repeating this. Two Lines - One for Tejas under private sector and one under foreign collaboration which could be Rafales, F-18, F-16, Gripen, Mig-35 or hawa hawai for all i care.

Rafales under MII have not been finalized yet. Only the 36+18 is confirmed