'U.S keen to build fighter jets in India'

[randomradio]

APG 79 AESA ; AIM 9X ; AIM 120 D

Obsolete; obsolete; obsolete.

 

[migflug]

In the eyes of many folks, the F18 ASH much touted the EWB in enclosed centerline provides semi stealthy feature along with certain reservations which has been highlighted.

Some of these points are

• IAF emphasis on aerodynamic superiority in equal proportion with sensors, the offensive and defensive EW package, avionics and weapons
• The 18 original rejection was based on 4 points
  • Maturity of its engine design, - which is now rectified and proven
  • the growth potential of its engine, - very very limited
  • assorted performance shortfalls, - energy bleed, limited G's
  • issues related to special preventative maintenance.
• The 18s engine especially the EPE even though is now a much matured platform and a advanced design, IAF evaluation at original MMRCA with the EPE engine showed that the plane actually did benefit with 20 percent thrust additions in the following fields
  • 18s climb performance,
  • its transonic acceleration,
  • its maximum sustained G,
  • its maximum sustained turn rates, and
  • its top-end speed all improved considerably,
  • with beneficial impact on its performance in both the A2A and the A2G missions
• The IAF’s judgment about the limited growth potential of the Ge 414 EPE is actually correct bcz even with every new upgrade and advancement of sensors and weapons, the overall weight of the aircraft increases slowly but surely. A case in example is between F3 and present Rafale and proposed F3R the actual weight addition by some estimations is almost 700 kgs which necessitates the case for engine to have future developmental scope too.
• Most significantly, the F/A-18E/F was perceived to have fallen short in aerodynamic performance, especially with respect to those parameters that distinguish the nimblest of fighters from the rest.
• These assessments are not surprising.
  • Although F18s remains one of the most carefree aircraft in the world where handling is concerned,
  • with a high alpha performance to boot,
  • it has traditionally been hampered by weaker energy addition compared to its contemporaries.
  • Further, it still remains qualified only for maneuveres up to 7.5G - Raffy does 9G and even 11G
  • The bleed is a little bit offsetted by the increased thrust EPE engine but still the whole aircraft does not change with just the engine enhancement.
• In contrast to the IAF’s ASQRs will specify a criterion of 9G unless its relaxed to 7.5G
• The limitations make the 18s have a disadvantage in turning fights but with sensors and weapons it mitigates these issues.
• Its emphasis on its radar, sensor and weapons places it more suitable for longer range combat but if it has to engage in WVR then again its weapons package sees it through inspite of an unfavourable hostile zone of engagement

But IAF as i said above will always put an emphasis on these parameters with a very special emphasis on maneuverability, acceleration and aerodynamic superiority

As for cost part

• The original F18SH with 404 engine was USD60 Mn approx
• The one with 414 and EWB is around USD 70-75 Mn
• The original Rafale as per MMRCA was USD 85 Mn
• The customization and other considerations will be the key here in understanding whats the cost in package form.

Rafale will be better suited bcz of the fact that it addresses on these issues front which we have discussed a lot..

btw Boeing also tried showing a replacement design for the 18s

But then it did not progress much

IMHO , the 18s being a true carrier based fighter with a land variant, its highly unsuitable for interceptor, dog fighting and most critically the missions of SEAD/DEAD where i forsee in future a more of low altitude close to mid range engagement to the max of 60 kms range..

In this particular aspect, Rafale has a unique capability to automatically follow the ground using both numeric maps and SAR radar capabilities, limited at 100 feet, 540 Knots or 1000 km/hr or 0.8 Mach and 5.5 G

The whole package to survive such a mission probability for 18s , I am sure will be less than Rafale... when you get such a capability and performance in a low altitude flight it changes the perspective and scope of battles..

What i am keen is the weapons and customization part and the package cost... if the negotiation terms are similar, we should see apple to apple comparison..

and I am confident the GOI/MOD/IAF/IN would choose the optimum aircraft based on every variable we might have discussed or outside of what we have known so far surely..

So you are saying f3r would better than ash. But with all weapons and training package ash will still cost 40 to 50% less than rafale. We know that French weapons are exorbitant whereas Americans are cheapest in west.
One favourable aspect of 18 are its growlers unmatched ew capability and engine tot.

If ash cost even 30% less than rafale we should go for it.

Obsolete; obsolete; obsolete.

How are they obsolete.

 

[Spectre]

Obsolete; obsolete; obsolete.

Not yet, this is like saying GTX 970 is obsolete since GTX 1080 is coming out. The fact of the matter is that GTX 970 will still perform all the tasks conceivable.

 

[zebra7]

So you are saying f3r would better than ash. But with all weapons and training package ash will still cost 40 to 50% less than rafale. We know that French weapons are exorbitant whereas Americans are cheapest in west.
One favourable aspect of 18 are its growlers unmatched ew capability and engine tot.

If ash cost even 30% less than rafale we should go for it.



How are they obsolete.

Where did the cost come, when we have already zeroed in Rafale. The cost factor, would come if there is a competition with the EF-2000, and Rafale is cheaper so end of the story.

1. Growler is not cleared for India.
2. Rafale for IAF is needed for DPSA, and IAF would prefer Rafale, due to its terrain masking, terrain following, low altitude, high G deep interdiction capability which F-18 SH don't give.
3. Those who insisting Grippen or F-16, IAF prefer double engine, -- End of Story.
4. For IN, Rafale would be an ideal choise due to comonality with the IAF, and the only 5th Generation capable combat plane available with good long potential, which F-18 SH do not offer.
5. In short, F-18 SH might give present advantage, but Rafale will give long term benifit, and Indian defense forces, have learned a lot to take most from the platform -- e.g Mig-21 (Bison), Jaguar (Darin 3), Combat Hack, end of the story !!

 

[PARIKRAMA]

So after all the articles, hype and everything else is these statements

+++

and some more on LSA..

Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:10pm IST
Related: TOP NEWS
India, U.S. "agree in principle" on sharing military logistics - Aston Carter
NEW DELHI | BY YEGANEH TORBATI AND TOMMY WILKES

India and the United States have agreed in principle to share military logistics, U.S. Defense Secretary Ashton Carter said on Tuesday, as both sides seek to counter the growing maritime assertiveness of China.

Washington has been urging New Delhi to sign the Logistics Support Agreement that allows the two militaries to use each other’s land, air and naval bases for resupplies, repair and rest.

But after years of dithering, the two sides said an agreement was in hand, although not yet ready for signing.

"We have agreed in principle that all the issues are resolved. We now need to finalise the draft," Carter said after talks with his Indian counterpart, Manohar Parrikar.

New Delhi has had concerns that the logistics agreement will draw it into a military alliance with the United States and undermine its traditional autonomy.

But Prime Minister Narendra Modi's administration, faced with an assertive China expanding its influence in the South China Sea and into the Indian Ocean, has signalled its desire to draw closer to the United States. China is also a close ally of India's arch rival, Pakistan.

New Delhi is keen to access U.S. technology for Modi's "Make in India" plans to build a domestic defence industrial base and cut expensive arms imports.

Carter said the two countries would also soon conclude a commercial shipping information exchange agreement.

(Writing by Sanjeev Miglani; Editing by Nick Macfie)

India, U.S. agree in principle on sharing military logistics - Ashton Carter | Reuters

++

BOTTOM LINE
I said before.. nothing will change.. even LSA is not agreed.. I said right DM MP is a man who is blocking all such foundation agreements inspite of what he says in public,,

There is no mention of so called what could be offered as pre guaranteed technology transfer point under MII..

Thats why i said before inspite of what media claims, its the french side which is not using any PR activity at all and is facing the flak and bashing from US,Russian,Swedish and Indian parties/people/journalist/analysts to Defense reporters .. and yet they are slowly doing what they do best.. quietly try and finish the deal with MOD and sign it ..

@Abingdonboy
Is it not the case where media over hyped US-India relationship whereas ground realities and realistic expectation meant if such cooperation has to come it will take more like 5-10 years what media and folks like Ajay Shukla is trying to say will come in days and months..


+++
@Stephen Cohen @Abingdonboy @zebra7 @Ankit Kumar 002 @dadeechi

You know i did not write before one small point,,

we have to be hypocrites really if we do agree for F18s case of 7.5G when we have actually manhandled, harassed and shown step son treatment to our LCA and has been insisting higher Gs as part of its FOC....

Its indeed a shame that doing so we created such a mess of delaying our own homegrown jet which by now we could have then inducted by increasing its productivity per year to a higher number..

The nation needs to be told why we have higher ASQRs for Tejas and relaxed ones for F18s if we really agree for 18s.. Perhaps MOD themselves needs to say that..

Or may be defense reporters or even like Mr Shukla should explain how its acceptable for 18s to have 7.5G versus Tejas 8.5Gs....

 

[Stephen Cohen]

So after all the articles, hype and everything else is these statements
View attachment 299845


View attachment 299852

+++

and some more on LSA..

Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:10pm IST
Related: TOP NEWS
India, U.S. "agree in principle" on sharing military logistics - Aston Carter
NEW DELHI | BY YEGANEH TORBATI AND TOMMY WILKES

India and the United States have agreed in principle to share military logistics, U.S. Defense Secretary Ashton Carter said on Tuesday, as both sides seek to counter the growing maritime assertiveness of China.

Washington has been urging New Delhi to sign the Logistics Support Agreement that allows the two militaries to use each other’s land, air and naval bases for resupplies, repair and rest.

But after years of dithering, the two sides said an agreement was in hand, although not yet ready for signing.

"We have agreed in principle that all the issues are resolved. We now need to finalise the draft," Carter said after talks with his Indian counterpart, Manohar Parrikar.

New Delhi has had concerns that the logistics agreement will draw it into a military alliance with the United States and undermine its traditional autonomy.

But Prime Minister Narendra Modi's administration, faced with an assertive China expanding its influence in the South China Sea and into the Indian Ocean, has signalled its desire to draw closer to the United States. China is also a close ally of India's arch rival, Pakistan.

New Delhi is keen to access U.S. technology for Modi's "Make in India" plans to build a domestic defence industrial base and cut expensive arms imports.

Carter said the two countries would also soon conclude a commercial shipping information exchange agreement.

(Writing by Sanjeev Miglani; Editing by Nick Macfie)

India, U.S. agree in principle on sharing military logistics - Ashton Carter | Reuters

++

BOTTOM LINE
I said before.. nothing will change.. even LSA is not agreed.. I said right DM MP is a man who is blocking all such foundation agreements inspite of what he says in public,,

There is no mention of so called what could be offered as pre guaranteed technology transfer point under MII..

Thats why i said before inspite of what media claims, its the french side which is not using any PR activity at all and is facing the flak and bashing from US,Russian,Swedish and Indian parties/people/journalist/analysts to Defense reporters .. and yet they are slowly doing what they do best.. quietly try and finish the deal with MOD and sign it ..

@Abingdonboy
Is it not the case where media over hyped US-India relationship whereas ground realities and realistic expectation meant if such cooperation has to come it will take more like 5-10 years what media and folks like Ajay Shukla is trying to say will come in days and months..


+++
@Stephen Cohen @Abingdonboy @zebra7 @Ankit Kumar 002 @dadeechi

You know i did not write before one small point,,

we have to be hypocrites really if we do agree for F18s case of 7.5G when we have actually manhandled, harassed and shown step son treatment to our LCA and has been insisting higher Gs as part of its FOC....

Its indeed a shame that doing so we created such a mess of delaying our own homegrown jet which by now we could have then inducted by increasing its productivity per year to a higher number..

The nation needs to be told why we have higher ASQRs for Tejas and relaxed ones for F18s if we really agree for 18s.. Perhaps MOD themselves needs to say that..

Or may be defense reporters or even like Mr Shukla should explain how its acceptable for 18s to have 7.5G versus Tejas 8.5Gs....

The formal signatures on LSA and CISMOA will happen when the F 18 deal is ready for
signing

What the " IN principle " thing means is that the deal is ready for signing

we can start giving US forces all logistical help they need

We wont deny logistical help to them in the ABSENCE of a signed agreement

It can be case of helping them on an " ad - hoc " basis or as and when necessary

But as soon as the BIG deals are ready for signing that we are interested in
( Such as F 18 manufacturing or TOT or Carrier Technology or any thing else )
Then we can put our formal signatures on LSA and CISMOA

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here we ALSO need to wait and see the policies of NEXT US President

The present government will be lame duck by October

 

[zebra7]

You know i did not write before one small point,,

we have to be hypocrites really if we do agree for F18s case of 7.5G when we have actually manhandled, harassed and shown step son treatment to our LCA and has been insisting higher Gs as part of its FOC....

Its indeed a shame that doing so we created such a mess of delaying our own homegrown jet which by now we could have then inducted by increasing its productivity per year to a higher number..

The nation needs to be told why we have higher ASQRs for Tejas and relaxed ones for F18s if we really agree for 18s.. Perhaps MOD themselves needs to say that..

Or may be defense reporters or even like Mr Shukla should explain how its acceptable for 18s to have 7.5G versus Tejas 8.5Gs....

Not everyone in IAF are ignorant to know all these stuffed what we discussed here.

1. ASQR made for LCA high --- Because IAF expected an indegenous solution which have an edge over the adversaries like F-16 of PAF, and J-10 of PLAAF. Already mentioned that IAF now looking forward for the 5th Gen warfare concept, and in which LCA before SOP 2016 does not fit.

2. As misconception IAF did have supported LCA, and they knew it very well that LCA will serve important part in the futuristic AMCA as DPSA, which will take the role of the Rafale 2030+, when Rafale have to fill the gap of Mirrage 2000 UPG, and MIG 29 UPG as Multirole fighter plane.

3. I think we are going good, and in future 2035+, we would have retired many birds, and then the foccused on the FGFA -- Air Superiority, AMCA -- DPSA, AURA/GHATAK -- Stealth Combat UCAS, Raflae -- Multirole, LCA -- Interceptor/ CAS, and Combat Hawk -- Ground attack.

 

[Masterhunter]

Your evidence is public opinion? Oh my.



No one doubts that, but is there really hard data to prove that those aboard the F-18 outclasses what PLAAF has?

Mate, it's may be because that there is no hard data available on Chinese system for evaluation with American or russian systems. There is always so much secrecy about Chinese weapon programmes that no one outside Chinese military can validate that.
Also, there is usually no public reports of test failures of various weapon platforms...

At best, analyst can guess about Chinese weapons and missiles...
To get them compared u need to remove the wall of secrecy and provide valid info and also publish some of the failures too in uncensored media or agency.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@PARIKRAMA

DM Parrikar takes his brief from the PM

PM only goes by -- Things Done / Not Done : ie Only RESULTS matter to PM

Parrikar cannot stall either Rafale or US deals for ever

If the Bureaucracy tells the PM that Parrikar is being obstinate then he will have
to go BACK to GOA (for fishing and sun bathing )

 

[KingRaj]

@PARIKRAMA according to journals any such deal to build jets will be announced next week.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Yes you are absolutely right. Whether it is bombay blasts or 26/11 US has a hand in that. But why blame them , when we dont treat enemy as an enemy? India does not walk the talk, it is not like Israel whose political class is full of patriots.
As such there is no need for US to take India seriously.
We have a rogue political class who are more hell bent on grabbing power and enjoying the luxuries.

Exactly right, Israel speaks with one voice and calls its enemies just that and acts accordingly, India on the other hand has no clear narrative vis a vis Pakistan. One moment it is calling them enemies, the next minuet talks are going on, their singers/artists/designers etc are coming to India.

Unless you are willing to call a spade a spade and act accordingly India deserves the pain it gets.

Is it only me who thinks Parrikar is succumbing to US sugar coating ? I am amazed how the rejected planes F-16 and F/A 18 are making news into India now. Add to that LSA, CISMOA, BECA ! Are we competing with KSA and other US allies when it comes to collecting fancy equipments ? I understand we need cooperation for EMALS since our IAC-2 will be a CATOBAR and we may be needing F/A 18 for carrier borne operations, but if it's meant for airforce then it's smack on the face of IAF and its long trial runs.

Not just Parrikar but the entire GoI- look at Modi's bootlicking of the US, his entire foreign policy (where Pakistan is concerned) seems to have been dictated to him by Washington DC. It's mose bizzare that the self proclaimed "nationalists" would be the ones who sell out the most.

Actually, there are two small catches..

Source says Indian Navy has put a very specific requirement that it wants aircrafts on-board its carrier to take off under 1 minute versus present 4 minutes plus take off time..

This essentially puts the case in clear perspective that MII for any jet has to have a navalised version capable of such capability.

In essence, inspite of what all newspaper are quoting and have been discussed the much touted game of survival wont happen between F18 vs Rafale.

I am not yet aware if F18 can be operating from STOBAR specially since 15 years timeline makes me see 2 new Stobars ACC coming in surely of IAC1 class.. Not sure about IAC2 but may be possible... Rafale does claim of stobar capability but needs to demonstrate..

1)The F-18 has no ability to operate from STOBAR carriers- it doesn't have the TWR or the aerodonamic performance to take off from short runways.
2) Seriously, who else would even think about buying F-18s from 2020 onwards? Boeing have already moved on to their 6th gen fighters and have no future roadmap for the F-18, from the next decade all F-18 opertors will operate the F-35 as their frontline fighter. The Rafale on the other hand will be the frontline aircraft of all current (and future) Rafale operators for the forseeable future and has a clear and funded roadmap (F4+) for the forseeable future that India would be able to contribute to (industrial benefits).

Can f 18 fly from stobar.

No.

If we get F 18 ; then our present Mig 29 K can be transferred to the IAF

The F-18 can't operate from STOBAR carriers so the IN will still require the MIG-29Ks, have no doubt those will remain with the IN for the duration of their lives- the IN and IAF don't just transfer assets.

on G2G level is not happening which would have ensured delivery from '17.

There is absolutely zero chance of that.

36 are done, there is no way to backtrack without penalties. MoD had hoped to stop it there as the budget does not allow for the numbers required. The slack would have been picked up by US jets which were coming at much more value proposition to Rafale along with unbelievable promises of ToT which even the French hadn't offered. This however did not materialize.

ALL INDIAN MEMBERS - Get ready for MMRCA 2.

No, this is incorrect for a number of reasons.

1) Dassualt has already submitted their proposal to make 90 Rafales in India- Boeing is about 4 years away from being in such a position (if they ever get the ToT clearances from the USG which is doubtful in itself)
2) There is but a marginal price difference between the Rafale and F-18ASH
3) The emphasis is on rapid induction now, no one has time for a "MMRCA 2" that would take 5 years just to select a winner and thus 7-8 years from now to induct the first jets. The time for that has long since passed.

126 Rafales are assured and I am certain this figure will inflate to 250+ (easily) when taking account of the IAF's needs and the IN's needs.

The "budget constraints" are such nonsense when you consider the IAF has budgeted for the MMRCA since 2012 (and returned unspent CAPEX every year for as long as I can remember). With 50% offsets and a payback period that is >10 years this deal is more than affordable. Consider that by the time India finishes paying for its first batch of Rafales (in 2026) it will have the 3rd largest economy in the world and spending >$120BN/year on defence.

 

[Masterhunter]

The 300 fighters would be over the RAFALE deal.

India would procure at least 200+ fighters under DTTI.

126 - RAFALEs
108 - Tejas MK1As
160 - F-16s
108 - F/A-18
312 - Super Sukhois
===========================
816 - Total (51 Squadrons)

It will be only one US planes... That too max 160 odd.. For IAF..
816 planes will make only 45 sqn (18 planes each sqn).. That is bare minimum IAF will have in one sqn..

Also... The number will differ if it's involving MII
Su 30.. 312... May go upto 340
Tejas.. 120.... Will go close to 200 (if f18 is chosen)
Rafale ... 36+90..may go upto 200 (if F16 is chosen)
F16/F18..150-160
Total.. 312+120+126+160+80(rafale or Tejas)= 798.. Planes... Till 2027..
Add 50 mirage +62 mig29 + 115 Jags..=227 planes..
Replacement of those will be from tejas/rafale as decided later on..

So total planes will be 798+227= 1025... Approx 57 sqn by 2030 max..

 

[Sher Malang]

This is also good for Afghanistan in the future, good luck India

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Obsolete; obsolete; obsolete.

Let the Rafales become affordable ; we will buy 200 of them

 

[Spectre]

Exactly right, Israel speaks with one voice and calls its enemies just that and acts accordingly, India on the other hand has no clear narrative vis a vis Pakistan. One moment it is calling them enemies, the next minuet talks are going on, their singers/artists/designers etc are coming to India.

Unless you are willing to call a spade a spade and act accordingly India deserves the pain it gets.



Not just Parrikar but the entire GoI- look at Modi's bootlicking of the US, his entire foreign policy (where Pakistan is concerned) seems to have been dictated to him by Washington DC. It's mose bizzare that the self proclaimed "nationalists" would be the ones who sell out the most.


1)The F-18 has no ability to operate from STOBAR carriers- it doesn't have the TWR or the aerodonamic performance to take off from short runways.
2) Seriously, who else would even think about buying F-18s from 2020 onwards? Boeing have already moved on to their 6th gen fighters and have no future roadmap for the F-18, from the next decade all F-18 opertors will operate the F-35 as their frontline fighter. The Rafale on the other hand will be the frontline aircraft of all current (and future) Rafale operators for the forseeable future and has a clear and funded roadmap (F4+) for the forseeable future that India would be able to contribute to (industrial benefits).


No.



The F-18 can't operate from STOBAR carriers so the IN will still require the MIG-29Ks, have no doubt those will remain with the IN for the duration of their lives- the IN and IAF don't just transfer assets.


There is absolutely zero chance of that.


No, this is incorrect for a number of reasons.

1) Dassualt has already submitted their proposal to make 90 Rafales in India- Boeing is about 4 years away from being in such a position (if they ever get the ToT clearances from the USG which is doubtful in itself)
2) There is but a marginal price difference between the Rafale and F-18ASH
3) The emphasis is on rapid induction now, no one has time for a "MMRCA 2" that would take 5 years just to select a winner and thus 7-8 years from now to induct the first jets. The time for that has long since passed.

126 Rafales are assured and I am certain this figure will inflate to 250+ (easily) when taking account of the IAF's needs and the IN's needs.

The "budget constraints" are such nonsense when you consider the IAF has budgeted for the MMRCA since 2012 (and returned unspent CAPEX every year for as long as I can remember). With 50% offsets and a payback period that is >10 years this deal is more than affordable. Consider that by the time India finishes paying for its first batch of Rafales (in 2026) it will have the 3rd largest economy in the world and spending >$120BN/year on defence.

Believe me I would like nothing better than 100+ Rafales in IAF colors and it might be the case going forward. All I am saying is that Deal for additional jets (not additional Tejas line) will be through competitive evaluation. It wont be as structured and detailed as original MMRCA. I am not clear on the details yet but expect a shorter evaluation period lasting six months to year max. Most of the jets involved are already evaluated and catalogued with only the enhancements left to be tested.

Budget constraints are not nonsense. unspent capex are not accrued yearly but are diverted as we run a deficit. We dont only have jet procurement programs to see through but there are 100s if not 1000s of programs waiting clearance and funds.

AFAIK and according to a chat I had, there are three options of jets in order of preference below for MII.

1. Rafales
2. F-18s
3 F-16s Block V or the next gen Gripen

Additionally following orders

- PAKFA - 40
- Mig 29k - not sure
- Tejas MK1A - 100