U.S. bristles at stiff Pakistani NATO fees

[Developereo]

Shutting down supply routes of a large army is very similar to shutting down water and power to your apartment.

Hope you understand this.

So there are Pakistani origin people involved in terror in NY. Supposedly they were "CITIZENS" and "ALLIES" of America.

Should the NY police go around and shut down water and power to all the apartments where Pakistanis dwell?

that's called collective punishment and inhuman.

Unfortunately this is the same thing that you are proposing. Collective punishment for all NATO troops. Yes there was a sad incident in Salala. But you want to create a bigger fasad for Pakistan while sitting comfy apartment in NY that is protected by the very same troops and law enforcement agencies.

This is hypocritic at best if not downright treasonous.

peace,.

Please understand the definition of "collective punishment".

In the case of NATO soldiers, they are under unified command and the command center gives the order to launch strikes within Pakistan, or to implement policies, which are calculated to adversely affect Pakistan. Retaliating against the command center, in a non-military way as Pakistan is doing, is a legitimate response. You can argue the effectiveness or long-term repercussions of the strategy, but there is no denying the legality of the response.

In the case of Pakistani civilians living in New York, there is no similar central command and control center. If all the Pakistani civilians in NY routinely held conspiratorial meetings where the actions of each member of the community were planned and guided by a central committee, then you analogy would apply.

As it is, you present a false analogy.

 

[The SC]

you my dear Sir are really simple in your mind about a lot of things.

USA and countries similar to USA do not accept defeat at the hands of puny countries.

For each US soldier dead, they usually kill 10-100 of their perceived enemy.

Why it is so?

Well a country becomes a super power by not playing nice. They become super by the biggest Big Boss and ruthless.

Read Islamic history and you will find the same thing.

Yazid destroyed Imam Hussain, and his very seed.

Afghan hoards dismembered any Hindu raja who opposed them.

Turks did the same to their enemies. Ask Armenians and they will tell you all about it.


Sorry to distract from the main topic.

Having given few examples from Islamic history, let me come back to American's possible response to Pakistan shutting down their supply routes.

1. Stoppage of international support (direct aid of 2.5 billions + money from IMF and world bank).
-- Many in Pakistan say, we have lived under sanctions and we can suffer more just like Iranians.
-- Well this is all fine and dandy but we are not a monolithic country like Iran. Our provinces have a habit of shouting separation at the drop of hat.

And this brings us to the second point.

2. Learn what Americans did to Columbia some 100 years ago. When Columbia refused to accept American terms about Panama Canal (1 billion $ back then), Americans "encouraged" Panama separation. Once Panama got independence, Americans gave the same amount of money $billion 1 to Panama and dug the canal.
-- Americans can simply provide air cover a la Libya to Balochis and in few months Balochistan could become independent. Then just like Panama, Americans can give $2.5 billions a year (that they now give to Pakistan) to Balochis and get a nice highway all the way to Kandhar from Gawader.

-- Why do you think Chinese are running away like rats when it comes to developing Gawader. They know their investment is not safe given Pakistan's unstable tendencies.

-- then what will be Pakistan's reaction? lob few missiles? to where? Explode nukie bumbs? but on whom?

I write this with heavy heart. I am talking about my beloved country.

But I am also aware enough about the military history of Pakistan and the USA and how the countries can hurt each other or help each other.


Pakistan being much much smaller country, can get hurt really bad so we must be very very careful. American is "unhappy" with us, but it has not given us the "enemy status". It is up to us to make sure we never become even a perceived enemy of America or any power that may be 50 times or more bigger than us.

This is all I want to say. My effort is not to prove you as idiot, instead all my words and feelings and emotions are to see my country as one and prosperous in the long run.

Pakistan Paindabad.

Peace to all.

So what do you suggest?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Please understand the definition of "collective punishment".

In the case of NATO soldiers, they are under unified command and the command center gives the order to launch strikes within Pakistan, or to implement policies, which are calculated to adversely affect Pakistan. Retaliating against the command center, in a non-military way as Pakistan is doing, is a legitimate response. You can argue the effectiveness or long-term repercussions of the strategy, but there is no denying the legality of the response.

In the case of Pakistani civilians living in New York, there is no similar central command and control center. If all the Pakistani civilians in NY routinely held conspiratorial meetings where the actions of each member of the community were planned and guided by a central committee, then you analogy would apply.

As it is, you present a false analogy.

False analogy?

hahahah

Just checkout WW-II history and checkout how German-Americans, Italian-Americans, and especially Japanese Americans were given collective punishment.

Wake my dear poster, wake up. No need to hide behind the legalese that mean jack squat when "rubber meets the road".

Wake up please. wake up.

So what do you suggest?

Just one. Get rid of your emotions, anger and prejudice (i.e. Islamist way of thinking these days). Then you can think for yourself and come up with amicable solutions that will protect Pakistanis in Pakistan and overseas.

peace.

 

[muse]

Absolutely shameless and down right disgusting that the US wishes to haggle, the US has said the the route through Pakistan is not required, why then all this stomach acid over the price Pakistan seek - just say "No"! Mr. Panetta and go through the north - good luck to you


US will not be price ‘gouged’ by Pakistan: Panetta


WASHINGTON: US Defense Secretary Leon Panetta vowed Sunday not to let the United States be “gouged” by Pakistan on the price it charges for overland deliveries of American military supplies to Afghanistan.

Pakistan closed the land route to US supplies in November as punishment for a botched US air strike that mistakenly killed 24 Pakistani soldiers, but have been in negotiations to reopen the border crossing.

US defense officials have said the Pakistanis are demanding several thousand dollars for every truck crossing its border with the supplies, up from $250 per truck before the closure.

“We’re not about to get gouged in the price. We want a fair price,” Panetta said on ABC’s “This Week.”Without the Pakistani supply lines, the United States has had to rely on a much longer, more expensive northern route to resupply its forces in Afghanistan.

The supply lines impasse is just one of a host of issues that have opened deep schisms in relations between the two countries, supposed allies in the US battle against extremists.

Relations plunged to an all-time low after a US raid by US special operations forces killed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in a compound in a Pakistani garrison town on May 2, 2011.

The United States has moved gingerly to make up with the Pakistanis, who were incensed that they learned of the raid only after it had been carried out.

But the issue flared anew last week when a Pakistani court sentenced a doctor who helped the United States gather DNA data used to track down bin Laden to 33 years in prison for helping the Americans.

“It is so difficult to understand and it’s so disturbing that they would sentence this doctor to 33 years for helping in the search for the most notorious terrorist in our times,” Panetta said.

“What they have done here,” he added, “does not help in the effort to try to reestablish a relationship between the United States and Pakistan.”

The Senate Appropriations Committee has voted to cut US aid to Pakistan by a symbolic $33 million — $1 million for each year of jail time given to Shakil Afridi, the doctor.

The measure, an amendment to the $52 billion US foreign aid budget, passed in a 30-0 vote in a sign of growing frustration with Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Absolutely shameless and down right disgusting that the US wishes to haggle, the US has said the the route through Pakistan is not required, why then all this stomach acid over the price Pakistan seek - just say "No"! Mr. Panetta and go through the north - good luck to you

Absolutely correct - The US and its apologists (as well as their boot lickers in the Pakistani media) have been ranting about how the US really does not need the Pakistani transit route, and how Pakistan's 'trump card' turned out to be a 'weak hand', so just say 'no thank you' to Pakistan and end the negotiations and keep using the NDN.

Instead, we have this non-stop ranting and whining by the US Deep State, Government and legislators day in and day out over 'gouging, extortion, blah, blah ..'.

 

[Hulk]

Absolutely correct - The US and its apologists (as well as their boot lickers in the Pakistani media) have been ranting about how the US really does not need the Pakistani transit route, and how Pakistan's 'trump card' turned out to be a 'weak hand', so just say 'no thank you' to Pakistan and end the negotiations and keep using the NDN.

Instead, we have this non-stop ranting and whining by the US Deep State, Government and legislators day in and day out over 'gouging, extortion, blah, blah ..'.

Hope you have not forgotten that US is the boss and they deserve it. I appreciate them coming to Afghanistan to fix it. They are the one who helps pretty much every country in the world at the time of crisis. The amount of work they have done across the world they are in my opinion done great job and that is why they deserve power too.

 

[SMC]

^ Yes, they certainly helped Iraq get rid of WMDs.

 

[Hulk]

^ Yes, they certainly helped Iraq get rid of WMDs.

Everyone makes mistake, but that does not mean they do everything wrong.

 

[SMC]

Everyone makes mistake, but that does not mean they do everything wrong.

You call a 7 year war a mistake?

 

[Hulk]

You call a 7 year war a mistake?

What else, call it blunder of whatever. I never supported Iraq war, but that does not mean that do not do good things.

 

[SMC]

What else, call it blunder of whatever. I never supported Iraq war, but that does not mean that do not do good things.

Uh huh.. and Iraq war is just one example. What about unconditional support for Israel, including the massacre of civilians it carries out? What about killing innocents with drone attacks? (No don't give me the talk about how they're mere collateral damage -- US and Western states call such killings in Syria or formerly in Libya as massacres). What about the continuous intervention in countries like Cuba, Zimbabwe, Iran and Venezuela? Those countries want nothing to do with the US.

Of course you can think of US as some impartial, charitable angel but there's a reason almost no countries outside the western nations do not think of US that way (even large portions of many western nations dislike the US).

 

[Developereo]

False analogy?

hahahah

Just checkout WW-II history and checkout how German-Americans, Italian-Americans, and especially Japanese Americans were given collective punishment.

Wake my dear poster, wake up. No need to hide behind the legalese that mean jack squat when "rubber meets the road".

Wake up please. wake up.

Wrong again.

I never denied that collective punishment has occurred.

I challenged your assertion that Pakistani action against NATO forces (i.e. official soldiers under unified military command) was equivalent to collective punishment of civilians

Your comment of "nah nah nah nah, US is a superpower and can kick your as$" is the usual platitude we get from many people here. We all know that and pointing it out doesn't really address the fundamental issue of defending Pakistani national interests when they are under assault by US policies.

My comment was strictly in regards to your description of Pakistani action against NATO soldiers as "collective punishment".

 

[Hulk]

Uh huh.. and Iraq war is just one example. What about unconditional support for Israel, including the massacre of civilians it carries out? What about killing innocents with drone attacks? (No don't give me the talk about how they're mere collateral damage -- US and Western states call such killings in Syria or formerly in Libya as massacres). What about the continuous intervention in countries like Cuba, Zimbabwe, Iran and Venezuela? Those countries want nothing to do with the US.

Of course you can think of US as some impartial, charitable angel but there's a reason almost no countries outside the western nations do not think of US that way (even large portions of many western nations dislike the US).

What about your views about US when they were your friends?

 

[SMC]

My views on US have more or less been always the same, they've only become more resolute with time.

 

[VelocuR]

I just couldn't understand why US accept NDN route from Russia costing more than $14,000. Why US complained Pakistan's supply route and doesn't accept it?

Is this because Pakistan is cheap low quality?