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Type-212 vs Type-214 explained

Hi,
now compare it to the seawolf class nucler subs---which can run at 25-30 knots without being detected and plus 40 knots all day long for as long as the crew has food in the submarine---which means a minimum of 3 months---.
With all due respect i beg to differ.
You are speaking out of context. Submarines no matter of what type can not afford to run on top speed like 40 knots in dense ASW environment. Seawolf maybe designed to be the most stealthiest submarine but as soon as it hits the speed the noise when it cuts the water its acoustic signature will no longer be 0 or close to none. I know their are "noise reduction" systems but they are less effective during high top speed compared to stealthy profile in low speed (10-15 knots). The top speed is only beneficial if it only wants to get to point A to B quickly beyond ASW threat.
The non nuclear subs are good against non nuclear subs---not against the nuclear subs---I have recently done some more research on this matter and my observation and analysis after reading some stuff from professionals----
Please kindly try to be more specific in your generalized assumption. So you are saying that a non nuclear sub Type-212 can not detect and hunt 50 year old Nuclear powered sub or the first kill strike will still be in 50 year old nuclear powered sub's favor?
SSBN
SSGN
are merely Land attack platform and ASW are secondary role.
compared to
SSK
which is primarily ASW AShW strike platform.
the news about some swedish subs etc creating headache for the u s navy's nuclear subs maynot be true---I believe that it s a deception and a misleading statement from the americans---
very strange. :what:
secondly----the american nuclear subthe current ones has so much technology----it is unbelievable---the newest generation of american sub could possibly see in front of them---they will have probes floating in front and behind thousands of yards to give them and audio and visual imagery of the ocean---.
Neither India or Pakistan is going to posses top of the line american nuclear powered submarines. Nevertheless top of the line diesel submarines are better choice in limited territorial waters of Indo-PAK vs average modern nuclear powered subs like arihant in "ASW" context.
The weapons systems----the diesel would not have enough offensive weapons to take out any older american nuclear or a russian nuclear sub of the later model. The nuc subs would have too many defencive weapons at hand to knock out any weapons launched by a diesel and would have too many offencive weapons to take out the diesel.
Again. you could have been little bit more specific.
SSN of seawolf class can carry whopping 50 AShM or Torpedos but again PN is not planning to attack US with its type-214 fleet and neither india is going to posses anything close to seawolf.
Akula II is a prime concern for PN which probably posses superior systems however in terms of ASW, Type-214 may posses superior torpedos like Black Shark, and DM2A4 latest german sensors which will be capable enough to hunt down any nuclear subs in our territorial waters and no i am not referring to USN.
The diesel's may---I would say may get a shot if it is lying in wait---lying dormant for a while at a certain place that the nuc sub is going by---but it is not with certainity that the shot maybe effective for the nuc sub would have too many ways to counter the shot.
Again you have a very absurd opinion and speaking out of context. German navy primarily relies on stealthy diesel submarines because it perfectly full fills its requirement and fully utilizes its potential in shallow waters of Baltic sea and of course a perfect coastal defence platform against russian nuclear submarines.
he was not wrong---in the last two weeks what I have read---
really?
 
The AIP Alternative
Air-Independent Propulsion: An Idea Whose Time Has Come?


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The AIP Alternative
Air-Independent Propulsion: An Idea Whose Time Has Come?

By DON WALSH

Don Walsh served 24 years in the Navy, during which time he was involved in many aspects of Navy oceanographic activity. In 1975, he founded and chaired the Institute for Marine and Coastal Studies at the University of Southern California. He left that post in 1983 to devote full time to International Maritime Inc., which he founded in 1975 and still heads.
For nearly 100 years a primary goal for ship designers has been to increase the range and submerged-time capabilities of submarines. It was an elusive target until the introduction of nuclear propulsion in the mid-1950s. But nuclear propulsion was, and is, too costly for all but five of the world's major navies.

For the other 30 or so navies in the world diesel-electric boats would remain their only viable option. But even the most modern of today's diesel boats are only marginally better (in submerged-time and range) than the submarines of World Wars I and II. Development of the first practical air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems for diesel submarines, however, promises much greater improvements over the next 15­20 years.

The operational demands of World Wars I and II led to a major expansion of most of the submarine fleets of the warring powers. This led in turn to greatly increased investments in technological development. Even after World War II, designers developed a variety of enhancements for diesel-electric submarines--in streamlining and noise quieting, for example, in reducing manpower requirements in the design and production of more powerful batteries, and in snorkel improvements (for extended submerged range). Almost all of those, and other, capability improvements were incremental, though, and rather modest in scale.

Technical and Safety Problems

The development of air-independent propulsion systems actually began during World War II, when the Soviet Union and Germany developed AIP systems for their submarines. The Soviet-designed AIP system used liquid oxygen and diesel fuel to operate a closed-cycle diesel (CCD) engine that was installed in the submarine M-401 for an experiment that lasted from 1940 to 1945.

In Germany, Professor Hellmuth Walter, an engineer, developed an AIP system that used highly concentrated hydrogen peroxide to produce steam for a turbine-driven submarine. Towards the end of World War II the system was installed in the newly developed Type XXVI U-boat. As with the Soviet system, the Walter system was plagued by numerous technical and safety problems. Safe handling of the highly unstable peroxide in the closed space of a submarine proved to be simply too difficult and the Type XXVI U-boats never saw combat. Moreover, because it was so late in the war there was neither enough time nor enough resources to convert the Type XXVIs into effective combat units.

After World War II the Americans, British, and Soviets all obtained access to Walter's work and attempted to extend it to a safe conclusion. In the United States, the Navy's Engineering Experimental Station in Annapolis, Md., did extensive testing of a Walter Cycle AIP system. Eventually a reduced-size system was installed in the small experimental submarine X-1. However, by the mid-1950s the U.S. Navy had terminated this work. Nuclear-propulsion systems were being developed and the potential value of AIP-powered diesel submarines seemed to be no longer important.

In Britain the Royal Navy (RN) installed a Walter Cycle plant in HMS Excalibur to test the system under actual seagoing conditions. The results were not encouraging. In fact, the submarine was often referred to as "HMS Exploder." The experiments were stopped when the Royal Navy also shifted to nuclear submarines.

More Problems Than Progress

The Soviets continued AIP development for 15 years after World War II. Using data generated from their work on WWII closed-cycle diesel AIP systems, they built 30 Quebec-class submarines (from 1953 to 1957). They gained considerable operational experience with AIP, but the submarines--which ran on liquid oxygen and diesel fuel--were not satisfactory in fleet service. There were explosions, fires, and even the loss of some submarines. Russian submariners grimly called the Quebecs "cigarette lighters." AIP development was terminated in the mid-1970s, and the remaining Quebecs were scrapped. They had achieved much greater submerged endurance and range, but those gains were cancelled out by the unsafe nature of their AIP systems.

Meanwhile, the Soviets had also (in 1952) built an experimental Walter Cycle submarine designated Design Project 617, which entered service in 1958. An onboard explosion put an end to the program in 1959. From then on the Soviets also focused on nuclear propulsion--but they did carry out some further AIP research and development (R&D) for the diesel submarines they continued to build.

The CCD engines and the Walter steam turbines represented sound theoretical approaches to AIP. Increases up to 400 percent in submerged time and/or range were possible in the better systems; however, they still could not be made sufficiently safe for routine fleet operations. Nuclear power seemed not only the best but also the final answer to the submariners' dream of virtually unlimited submerged duration. Because it was such an expensive dream, though, nuclear propulsion was limited to only a handful of navies. Diesel boats were the only other choice available to less affluent navies with sizable submarine fleets. But many of those navies hoped for an affordable AIP system to be developed some day.

The problem was that only the major navies could afford the R&D needed in this area--and most of those navies had dropped AIP work in favor of nuclear propulsion. Eventually, though, submarine design groups in Germany, Sweden, and France resumed their work on AIP systems, following four different technical approaches: fuel cell, closed-cycle diesel, Stirling cycle engine, and steam turbo-electric.

European Advances in AIP

The Swedish Navy became the first to put AIP systems into its fleet operating units. The Kockums-built AIP system was first tested on the refurbished submarine Näcken in 1989. Today, three Gotland-class subs (Gotland, Uppland, and Halland) are fitted with Swedish Stirling cycle engines, which use liquid oxygen and diesel oil. The Gotlands are powered by hybrid diesel-electric propulsion units, with the Stirling engine supplementing the conventional diesel-electric system. The Stirling engine turns a generator that produces electricity for propulsion and/or to charge the vessel's batteries.

The Gotland was delivered in 1996. Submerged endurance (without snorkeling) for the 1,500-ton submarine is 14 days at five knots. A crew of five officers and 28 enlisted personnel is required to operate the submarine. Kockums now offers the similar T-96 submarine for export. The "unit cost" of the T-96 is about $100 million.

Some of today's most advanced AIP developmental work is being carried out by the German Submarine Consortium (GSC). This group consists of two shipyards--the Howaltswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW, in Kiel) and the Thyssen Nordsee Werke (TNSW, in Emden)--plus the IKL design bureau and the Ferrostaal trading company. Over the past 30 years the two shipyards have delivered 122 submarines to 16 navies either as new construction or as "kits" for local production.

For the past 15 years both shipyards have been working on parallel development of two different AIP systems. HDW offers a fuel cell (developed with Siemens Electric), while TNSW is marketing a closed-cycle diesel engine. After extensive prototype testing ashore, both systems were sea-tested in 1988­1990 on the U-1, a former German Navy Type 205 diesel-electric submarine.

The HDW fuel cell is scheduled to enter fleet service in 2003 on GSC's new 1,800-ton 212-class submarines. This AIP system also will be a "hybrid," with the submarine retaining a basic diesel-electric propulsion system. A fuel cell cannot deliver sufficient electrical output for high-speed operations, but the conventional storage battery can (for a short period of time, after which the fuel cell can recharge the battery as well as provide energy for low-speed operations).

Artificial Air But Tangible Improvements

HDW estimates that the 212, with its crew of 27, will be able to remain submerged for more than a month and to cruise (at four knots) for over 3,000 miles. Four of the $250-million submarines will be delivered to the German Navy--two built by HDW and two built by TNSW. Two also are being built for the Italian Navy under license at Italy's Fincantieri Shipyard.

GSC recently announced the availability of the 214 class, an improved version of the 212 with greater diving depth (more than 1,400 feet), a newer dual-fuel-cell design, and a slightly larger crew of 30 officers and men. It has been reported that Greece intends to order three of the 214s.

Thyssen Nordseewerke's closed-cycle diesel system uses liquid oxygen, diesel fuel, and argon gas to fuel its AIP system. The oxygen and argon gases are combined to make "artificial air" for the diesel. Argon, an inert gas, is recovered and continuously reused. The same diesel is used as a conventional air-breathing engine for main propulsion on the surface or when snorkeling. TNSW's CCD AIP system is considered to be particularly cost-effective for the retrofit of existing diesel-electric submarines, but it also can be installed in a new-construction boat.

Both HDW and TNSW estimate that the AIP option will add only about 15 percent to the overall cost of a newbuild submarine. To get that much added performance for such a small addition in cost is considered quite a bargain. It also appears that most AIP systems will require, on average, the addition of a hull section approximately 30 feet long.

In France the DCN International naval shipbuilding company has developed the "MESMA" (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) AIP steam-turbine system, which basically burns ethanol and liquid oxygen to make the steam needed to drive a turbo-electric generator. DCNI offers the MESMA option for its Agosta 90B and Scorpene classes of submarines. The company claims that its AIP option increases submarine underwater en-durance "by a factor of 3 to 5." The design of the MESMA system permits it to be retrofitted into many existing submarines simply by adding an extra hull section.

Pakistan has bought three Agosta-class submarines, the first of which was commissioned earlier this year. The third one, expected to be built in Pakistan, will be fitted with the MESMA AIP system and thus in all likelihood become the world's first MESMA-powered submarine.

Outlook for the Future

In addition to the builders of the four Swedish submarines and the GSC and DCNI boats, there are other "players" who have done considerable R&D work on AIP systems. Russia is offering a fuel-cell option for its "improved" Kilo- and Amur-class attack submarines. None have yet been built with an AIP system, but reports suggest that China may add an AIP unit to one of its Project 636 Kilos.

The Netherlands' RDM submarine shipyard offers its "Spectre" CCD option for the yard's 1,800-ton Moray 1800 H submarine; none have been built yet, but RDM estimates that a hybrid-powered Moray could remain submerged for 20 days while cruising at two knots. Negotiations started earlier this year to build an AIP Moray for Egypt, but as of early November there had been no firm commitment. The average cost of a Moray is estimated to be about $250 million.

The Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Agency has undertaken studies to add AIP systems to its latest models of diesel-electric submarines. The leading candidate systems are the Swedish Stirling engine and the German HDW fuel cell.

It is estimated that 100­150 diesel submarines will be purchased in the next 10 years. Naval experts--and shipbuilders--throughout the world are closely monitoring the operations of the Swedish Navy's four AIP submarines and eagerly await the first GSC-Type 212 submarine. By 2005 there should be sufficient fleet operating experience to determine what are the most likely operational and cost benefits that can be derived from shifting to AIP systems. By then the unit cost for a modern diesel-electric submarine should be between $200 million and $300 million. Paying only 15 percent more to add or retrofit an AIP unit--a relatively small cost for greatly improved submerged performance--should be a very attractive option, therefore.

AIP submarines could be a particularly formidable threat when operating in coastal waters, marginal ice zones, or maritime straits and other global "choke points." Add to that the virtual certainty that new underwater weapons will help equalize the performance disparity between AIP boats and nuclear-powered submarines and it may well happen that the U.S. Navy will want to reassess the desirability of developing an AIP submarine of its own, if only to learn how to counter this new and potentially revolutionary undersea challenge.
 
@unicorn

Type 214

HDW has developed the Type 214 submarine, which is a further improvement on the Type 212.
...
The Type 214 has an increased diving depth of over 400m, due to improvements in the pressure hull materials.
...
Performance of the AIP system has been increased with two Siemens PEM fuel cells which produce 120kW per module and will give the submarine an underwater endurance of two weeks.
...
A hull shape which has been further optimised for hydrodynamic and stealth characteristics and a low-noise propeller combine to decrease the submarine's acoustic signature.



THANKS to penguin who got the information!

U212 / U214 Attack Submarines - Naval Technology

that clearly proves that type U-214 is better & made specifically for a different sort of enviroment than the U-212.
 
U 214 is better version of U 214 and it is said by germans too in article i dont remember it where i seen it but i read it in news papers
 
SSBN
SSGN
are merely Land attack platform and ASW are secondary role.
compared to
SSK
which is primarily ASW AShW strike platform.

There is no exclusive thing. All nuclear powered submarine, whether it is SSGN or SSBN can act as a ASW/AShW platform depending upon its mission.
 
There is no exclusive thing. All nuclear powered submarine, whether it is SSGN or SSBN can act as a ASW/AShW platform depending upon its mission.

perhaps you did not understand what i stated.

SSGN SSBN prime role is still land attack then its ASW compared to SSK and SSN which are merely ASW attack platform but that does not mean that such type are not capable of Land attack or ASW.
 
Here is a good Comparison : Scorpene vs T-212 vs T-214

Mwoa .. no it is not so good.

For starters, it is incorrect that 212A has 2x HDW/Siemens PEM fuel cells (120 kW) - see earlier post of mine, pdf from Siemens states 212A and 214 use different PEM cells.

Moreover, according to that comparison, 212A and 214 are identical except for dimensions, displacement, kW/ton, speed, range/autonomy, and ESM system.

This is incorrect. For example, it is know that 212A uses a different combat system from 214 ( Konsberg Defence & Aerospace of Norway MSI-90U rather than ISUS 90, from ATLAS Elektronik)
 
With all due respect i beg to differ.
You are speaking out of context. Submarines no matter of what type can not afford to run on top speed like 40 knots in dense ASW environment. Seawolf maybe designed to be the most stealthiest submarine but as soon as it hits the speed the noise when it cuts the water its acoustic signature will no longer be 0 or close to none. I know their are "noise reduction" systems but they are less effective during high top speed compared to stealthy profile in low speed (10-15 knots). The top speed is only beneficial if it only wants to get to point A to B quickly beyond ASW threat.

Please kindly try to be more specific in your generalized assumption. So you are saying that a non nuclear sub Type-212 can not detect and hunt 50 year old Nuclear powered sub or the first kill strike will still be in 50 year old nuclear powered sub's favor?
SSBN
SSGN
are merely Land attack platform and ASW are secondary role.
compared to
SSK
which is primarily ASW AShW strike platform.

very strange. :what:

Neither India or Pakistan is going to posses top of the line american nuclear powered submarines. Nevertheless top of the line diesel submarines are better choice in limited territorial waters of Indo-PAK vs average modern nuclear powered subs like arihant in "ASW" context.

Again. you could have been little bit more specific.
SSN of seawolf class can carry whopping 50 AShM or Torpedos but again PN is not planning to attack US with its type-214 fleet and neither india is going to posses anything close to seawolf.
Akula II is a prime concern for PN which probably posses superior systems however in terms of ASW, Type-214 may posses superior torpedos like Black Shark, and DM2A4 latest german sensors which will be capable enough to hunt down any nuclear subs in our territorial waters and no i am not referring to USN.
Again you have a very absurd opinion and speaking out of context. German navy primarily relies on stealthy diesel submarines because it perfectly full fills its requirement and fully utilizes its potential in shallow waters of Baltic sea and of course a perfect coastal defence platform against russian nuclear submarines.

really?


Hi,

Please, read again ---you will have the answer. My comparison is not with the indian subs----it is in general terms---the stealth speed of sea wolf class is between 25---30 knots----again at that speed the seawolf is more silent than its predessesor the los angeles class parked under it den at the port or any other russian, french or british nuc or non nuke sub. The days of 10---15 knots silent speed are part of the history books now for the americans.

You are talking about ASW rich environment---I am not----I am just saying that even at its flank speed of 40 plus knots---the seawolf class are not blind---its sensors and probes are very very active and resourceful----

A typical 212 --- 214 is not a hunter sub against the nucs---I have stated that akula class willbe vulnerable against the 212 214----but not in a hunt---only in an ambush---but then I also stated that the electronic warfare package on the german subs would be much superior than the russians---you missed that part as well.
 
american nuc subs like the seawolf category are wide awake even at flank speed
Source please (booktitle with page no. allowed)

they have an ashtonishing array of sensors and gadgets that can keep them well informed of what is happening in the surrounding
True, but not equally so at any speed. For example, at high speeds, it would be unwise/impossible to stream a towed array sonar.

and at quiet speed of 20---28 knots the seawolf class is silent than the los angeles class sitting in its den in the barbour.
True. Self noise is very low, which allows for better target detection. Still, the issue of relative blindness at high speed remains, even if the SSN is very quiet.

These subs have too many sensors hooked into fiber optic cables outside that can give them a visual of the environment.
Details and sources, please. If would imagine these sensors - if any - to be associated with covert and special operations, not with ASW


Now if we compare them to the russians----then they are light years apart---any 212 or a 214 sitting in wait can nab them from close range---unless the russians are using the shkval or nuc tipped torps.
This bit is incomprehensible.
 
Source please (booktitle with page no. allowed)


True, but not equally so at any speed. For example, at high speeds, it would be unwise/impossible to stream a towed array sonar.


True. Self noise is very low, which allows for better target detection. Still, the issue of relative blindness at high speed remains, even if the SSN is very quiet.


Details and sources, please. If would imagine these sensors - if any - to be associated with covert and special operations, not with ASW



This bit is incomprehensible.


Hi,

For my details and resource---I went to the local library and spent some time---hours and days reading the material---I would recommend the same---as I stated in my firt post---'you may agree or you may disagree' it is upto you.

There is a lot of stuff available on sub warfare----
 
Hi,

Please, read again ---you will have the answer. My comparison is not with the indian subs----it is in general terms---the stealth speed of sea wolf class is between 25---30 knots----again at that speed the seawolf is more silent than its predessesor the los angeles class parked under it den at the port or any other russian, french or british nuc or non nuke sub. The days of 10---15 knots silent speed are part of the history books now for the americans.
You were clearly associating all nuclear subs as stealth platform and gave example of seawolf. no dough sea wolf is the stealthest submarine in the world but like i have said before bringing in seawolf in pak-indo sub context is very irrelevant.
You are talking about ASW rich environment---I am not----I am just saying that even at its flank speed of 40 plus knots---the seawolf class are not blind---its sensors and probes are very very active and resourceful----
i thought you were trying to win your argument that all nuc subs are superior to top of the line SSKs. you gave example of seawolf which is totally out of context.
Here is what I am learing in the last couple of weeks---doesn't make any difference---the french nuc would have a much superior defencive weapons systems against any attack on it---they will have more of them---than a non nuc sub---plus the speed of the nuc will be a major asset---. Doesnot make any difference---if it got caught 7 out of 8 times----.
A typical 212 --- 214 is not a hunter sub against the nucs---I have stated that akula class willbe vulnerable against the 212 214----but not in a hunt---only in an ambush---but then I also stated that the electronic warfare package on the german subs would be much superior than the russians---you missed that part as well.
:disagree: with all due respect i do not know what you have read in the past 2 weeks. and also you have to back your wild claims with credible sources. just so that u did not know.. Type-212/14 are SSK... meaning they are hunter subs.... they do not have any limitations about what they can detect hunt and kill.... unless you can prove with your library sources that type-214 can not hunt detect kill average nuclear subs.
 
Hi,

212 and 214 are not hunter killer subs against the nuc subs---they are good against any kind of surface ship or any other non nuc sub---hunter killer mean that you have the ability to track, follow and match the move of the adversary---which in this case is the non nucs---the diesels are limited in their in their stealth speed over a long peiriod of time.

Seawolf is not the stealthiest any more---there is another one that has taken its place---the virginia class---.
 
Seawolf is not the stealthiest any
[/LIST]more---there is another one that has taken its place---the virginia class---.

The noise level of the Virginia is equal to that of the US Navy Seawolf, SSN 21, with a lower acoustic signature than the Russian Improved Akula Class and fourth-generation attack submarines.
NSSN Virginia Class Attack Submarine - Naval Technology

212 and 214 are not hunter killer subs against the nuc subs---they are good against any kind of surface ship or any other non nuc sub--- hunter killer mean that you have the ability to track, follow and match the move of the adversary---which in this case is the non nucs---the diesels are limited in their in their stealth speed over a long peiriod of time.
You are suggesting an SSK cannot deal with an SSN? Ha! SSK and SSN are both attack submarines, but with different propulsion systems.

These submarines would be classified SSK; submarine hunter/killer.

SSK submarines were to lie in wait on enemy transit routes, listening for snorkeling Russian submarines and surface transits. The target's diesels would allow the SSK to detect their presence. In the event of hostilities, the American SSKs would ambush Soviet submarines leaving their ports, when they would be at their noisiest, snorkeling at high speed to make good the long distance.
SSK Conversion

Progress in ASW, however, was paralleled in the development of nuclear-powered and conventional submarines. Both were capable of long periods submerged and both became more difficult to detect as they incorporated stealth characteristics and reduced their noise signature. The requirement of diesel electric-powered submarines (SSK) to snorkel and recharge their batteries at frequent intervals was greatly reduced in the late 1980s after the introduction of air independent propulsion (AIP) systems.
Anti-submarine warfare

In the 1950s, the U.S. Navy developed two distinct types of submarine to take advantage of the new capabilities of nuclear power: fast attacks and boomers. The Navy officially designated fast attacks as SSN, for submarine (nuclear propulsion). The official designation for boomer is SSBN, for ballistic missile submarine (nuclear propulsion). Boomers are also known as fleet ballistic missile submarines.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/SUBS/const/anatomy/index.html
 
NSSN Virginia Class Attack Submarine - Naval Technology


You are suggesting an SSK cannot deal with an SSN? Ha! SSK and SSN are both attack submarines, but with different propulsion systems.


Hi,

What do you mean---when you say---" You are suggesting an SSK cannot deal with an SSN "----and what is this "HA"---did you have a cough or a hiccup---

"SSK and SSN are both attack submarines, but with different propulsion systems"

It is not as simplistic as you are putting it to be---you need to invest in a little more input.
 

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