Two Opposing Terms: Islamic and Republic

[M. Sarmad]

Lets get realistic , shall we ? The people would freak out on the mere mention on this word - reform .

It is possible and it has happened before ..
The whole muslim clergy agreed upon abolition of slavery a few hundred years ago
And a thousand year old quran-sanctioned practice was abandoned
Why cant that happen again ?

 

[Peshwa]

So many Pakistanis use and abuse history and continue to be ignorant.

One such case is the use of two terms associated by Pakistan.

Islamic and Republic.

Even though the two are exact opposite of each other.

The concept of "Republic" in general means that no power for anyone claiming to have divine guidance.


Funny and sad at the same times, that such terms are combined by so-called highly educated elite in Pakistan.

A villager in Sindh, punjab, balochistan, KP will never try to use such mumbo jumbo

For him It is just Pakistan.

That's it.

But our professors, our degree holders, our big name politicians who go attend prestigious Western schools like Oxbridge and Harvard continue spreading this ignorance nay arrogance in Pakistan.

Ugh...unless you are choosing a president or pm that is a prophet of sorts, the two can live together...
Divine guidance aka getting instructions from god is how I read it..since none of your leadership has been divine as most Pakistanis would agree, this condition holds
Islamic aka a way of life based on the principles of Islam...one has to do with the constitution (Islamic) and the other with the leadership ( republic) as you yourself put it.

I don't understand your rationale maybe, but I don't see a problem with those terms living in unison

 

[Secur]

It is possible and it has happened before ..
The whole muslim clergy agreed upon abolition of slavery a few hundred years ago
And a thousand year old quran-sanctioned practice was abandoned
Why cant that happen again ?

I didn't say it was impossible just that you do not have the power to do what is necessary even though you understand that it is necessary . Because the thought patterns of a clergy of that time and today are astronomically different , one was sincere to what he stood by and realized the ground realities , the other - the less said the better , he's total opposite .

 

[Dubious]

@Talon
okay , let me ask you a simple question , which was the last ayat revealed ?

Prohibited to you are dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah , and [those animals] killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a head-long fall or by the goring of horns, and those from which a wild animal has eaten, except what you [are able to] slaughter [before its death], and those which are sacrificed on stone altars, and [prohibited is] that you seek decision through divining arrows. That is grave disobedience. This day those who disbelieve have despaired of [defeating] your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (Quran 5:3)

Now if you are going to use this as a literal example...then you def dont know a thing about Islam and I really need to ask you who are you really? Because no one uses twists concepts like this to prove things like you do! The religion is perfect...HOWEVER it did not hinder progress instead asked you to ponder...I am sorry if you are incapable of doing that! Not sure how you missed the ayat about the pondering...Wait I think there are more than 5 ayats asking men to ponder...I am sorry you missed those!

2 questions: 1- Where is it described in Islam? 2- what is Ashora council and who got to elect it?

Its been a part of Islam since we cant get 1 person who is perfect (prophets stopped) hence we take a group of people...How to choose the best are chosen...it is the rough form of DEMOCRACY or a general council!

And where does islam clearly say so ???????

Shura (Arabic: شورى shūrā) is an Arabic word for "consultation"..so does it cause BIG questions when you have an engineering consultant or a financial consultant?

Which begs the question , which Islam you follow ? Here's the tricky part .

Bro, please dont go down that part...been whole day and night and someone has been taking dips in that ketchup!

 

[M. Sarmad]

Now if you are going to use this as a literal example...then you def dont know a thing about Islam and I really need to ask you who are you really? Because no one uses twists concepts like this to prove things like you do! The religion is perfect...HOWEVER it did not hinder progress instead asked you to ponder...I am sorry if you are incapable of doing that! Not sure how you missed the ayat about the pondering...Wait I think there are more than 5 ayats asking men to ponder...I am sorry you missed those!

Because I dont follow Mullahs !!!
Quran asks every one to ponder including you ...
Now tell me that if some one quotes "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion" ,
is it half quoting or quoting out of context ??

Shura

(Arabic: شورى shūrā) is an Arabic word for "consultation"..so does it cause BIG questions when you have an engineering consultant or a financial consultant?

And how does that answer my question ????????

 

[Dubious]

Because I dont follow Mullahs !!!
Quran asks every one to ponder including you ...
Now tell me that if some one quotes "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion" ,
is it half quoting or quoting out of context ??

Well, I have perfected your religion with the Quran as the scripture so read the Quran where it says to ponder....SIMPLE! Why complex things...which Mullah thought you that?

 

[Slav Defence]

Alright,gentlemen..ladies
@Talon @Secur @Azlan hadier @RangerPK
The problem here isn't that two antnoyms are assigned together to name a country which consists of Muslims as majority nation.
The problem here is 'lack of patience and biases' which our selfish and bias policy makers have shown and worse part here is that in order to get personal benefits,they tried to 'sugarcoat' 'tyranny' in the name of religion or modern democracy!
The most interesting fact is that Pakistan neither follows Islamic system nor democratic,but tyrannical lobby system which is damaging our infra structure.

 

[RangerPK]

Shura (Arabic: شورى shūrā) is an Arabic word for "consultation"..so does it cause BIG questions when you have an engineering consultant or a financial consultant?

Talon. This has become a troll thread. The guy you were arguing with. Said,

So , by the UN standards , the Islamic law violates basic human rights , hence incompatible with democracy ;

This is the argument he was building his castle over how, Islam is against democracy.


Below is what can be deduced from his statement.

If you are basing your argument, on how Islam contradicts Democracy is because.

Islamic Concept of Human Rights is against the UN concept of Human Rights.

Then you are implying.

1: The concept of Human Rights is essential to democracy

2 ONLY the UN concept of human rights is essential to democracy.

3 UN is essential to democracy.

UN is not an essential part of democracy. Thus his whole argument against Islam x Republic has been blown away.

@Azlan Haider


I guess, rest is just side tracking from the topic, and other derailing arguments from the main topic and other statements originally made earlier.


E.G Lets b1tch about Mullahs so everyone can forget what happened in the last 14 pages...

 

[M. Sarmad]

Well, I have perfected your religion with the Quran as the scripture so read the Quran where it says to ponder....SIMPLE! Why complex things...which Mullah thought you that?

no mullah whatsoever . you started this discussion and now you dont want to answer . so leave it , lets get back to topic

 

[Dubious]

Alright,gentlemen..ladies
@Talon @Secur @Azlan hadier @RangerPK
The problem here isn't that two antnoyms are assigned together to name a country which consists of Muslims as majority nation.
The problem here is 'lack of patience and biases' which our selfish and bias policy makers have shown and worse part here is that in order to get personal benefits,they tried to 'sugarcoat' 'tyranny' in the name of religion or modern democracy!
The most interesting fact is that Pakistan neither follows Islamic system nor democratic,but tyrannical lobby system which is damaging our infra structure.

Bro here the prob is @Azlan Haider here is trying to say that Islam is limited because of the last verse which I quoted Quran 5:3 in post 289..

He started off that the 2 terms are opposite said Islam is not flexible using verses out of context went on to say NO SUCH THING AS OUT OF CONTEXT...man I am tired

no mullah whatsoever . you started this discussion and now you dont want to answer . so leave it , lets get back to topic

Did I? You said you dont listen to Mullah then you sound like one (twisting texts at will + saying things and then denying it)

 

[M. Sarmad]

The most interesting fact is that Pakistan neither follows Islamic system nor democratic,but tyrannical lobby system which is damaging our infra structure.

When you try to be "Islamic Republic"
you end up being neither "Islamic" nor "republic"

We were the first one in the world who tried to mix the two in 1956 ...
The conservatives tried to exploit the nation in the name of religion by mixing the concept of "A country for better socio economic chances for muslims of sub continent" with a totally different concept of "a country for protection and propagation of Islamic religion"

And after 50 years ,the result is in front of every one ......

Bro here the prob is @Azlan Haider here is trying to say that Islam is limited because of the last verse which I quoted Quran 5:3 in post 289.. (twisting texts at will + saying things and then denying it)

I did not say that , you assumed it .. may be you are too tired , and I didnt even once deny what I said , so dont lie please

UN is not an essential part of democracy. Thus his whole argument against Islam x Republic has been blown away.

You seriously are funny

 

[Slav Defence]

Bro here the prob is @Azlan Haider here is trying to say that Islam is limited because of the last verse which I quoted Quran 5:3 in post 289..

He started off that the 2 terms are opposite said Islam is not flexible using verses out of context went on to say NO SUCH THING AS OUT OF CONTEXT...man I am tired


Did I? You said you dont listen to Mullah then you sound like one (twisting texts at will + saying things and then denying it)

My dear sister,
When there is no Islam followed by our civil regime despite of this fact that Islamic values are reflected very clearly in our 1973 constitution,then this question raised by our friend becomes secondary.
First of all,everyone of you answer me,as if we are really following any system?

 

[Dubious]

My dear sister,
When there is no Islam followed by our civil regime despite of this fact that Islamic values are reflected very clearly in our 1973 constitution,then this question raised by our friend becomes secondary.
First of all,everyone of you answer me,as if we are really following any system?

Actually I am not sure if we are talking about Pakistan...we are talking about in general if Islam and Republic are complete opposites or can they be in the same basket?

I did not say that , you assumed it .. may be you are too tired

You are too kind...But seriously, you bounced around alot and yes I am VERY TIRED! thank you!

Then what exactly was your purpose of asking for the last verse? and pointing out that it said it ISLAM IS PERFECT? If not to show it is rigid or select CERTAIN verses and strip them off their context?

 

[Slav Defence]

When you try to be "Islamic Republic"
you end up being neither "Islamic" nor "republic"

We were the first one in the world who tried to mix the two in 1956 ...
The conservatives tried to exploit the nation in the name of religion by mixing the concept of "A country for better socio economic chances for muslims of sub continent" with a totally different concept of "a country for protection and propagation of Islamic religion"

And after 50 years ,the result is in front of every one ......



I did not say that , you assumed it .. may be you are too tired



You seriously are funny

I think Azlan,that 'khichri' which we prepared earlier somehow by mixing two constitutions of quite different systems is quite 'implementable',however it was never implemented sincerely which is one main factor of 'failure'

 

[RangerPK]

I think Azlan,that 'khichri' which we prepared earlier somehow by mixing two constitutions of quite different systems is quite 'implementable',however it was never implemented sincerely which is one main factor of 'failure'

I agree with that.