Two events in history which put flourishing Islamic world into reverse gear

[EgyptianAmerican]

Why cut them out?

They will never get along with north african nations. As much as I would love to think that people are tolerant in North Africa, they simply aren't. A black Muslim would be accepted but a black christian? Even then Niger and Chad are vastly different from the rest of North Africa, These two nations have 100s of languages,tribes and dialects. It would take Trillions of dollars and 100s of years to unify them and centralize them.

 

[Al-Andalus]

Cut out Niger and Chad then we should be good.

Why so, If I may ask, and not also the remaining non-Arab states in the form of Mali, Senegal, Gambia, Guinea, Sierra Leone and Burkina Faso?

Niger and Chad are actually quite rich countries in terms of minerals (uranium in particular) and the second largest ethnic group in Chad (those guys have very capable soldiers), are actually Arabs (Baggara Arabs). Both states are majority-Muslim as well. There is even a small minority of Arabs in Niger (Diffa Arabs) numbering around 200.000 people, lol. If you guys don't want them we (GCC/Arabia/Arab Near East) should take them along with Horn of Africa and the Swahili Coastline.

Just wait a few decades and their populations will become huge but we (as in Arabs) are in no position to "complain" about such a thing but just saying. Large workforce, armies and all that.

Time to put the Omani empire back to life, lol.

 

[T-123456]

They will never get along with north african nations. As much as I would love to think that people are tolerant in North Africa, they simply aren't. A black Muslim would be accepted but a black christian? Even then Niger and Chad are vastly different from the rest of North Africa, These two nations have 100s of languages,tribes and dialects. It would take Trillions of dollars and 100s of years to unify them and centralize them.

You think Moroccans and Algerians would get along?

 

[Mamluk]

Muslims are the only society which is in regression in the 21st century, Every other group has gone through their own internal progressive revolutions

You spoke my mind!

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

You think Moroccans and Algerians would get along?

if it's a super state then they simply wouldn't have conflicts since the western Sahara would be included in this state. Of course they would yell over it but since neither would be independent countries it wouldn't be as large as a problem.

Why so, If I may ask, and not also the remaining non-Arab states in the form of Mali, Senegal, Gambia, Guinea, Sierra Leone and Burkina Faso?

Niger and Chad are actually quite rich countries in terms of minerals (uranium in particular) and the second largest ethnic group in Chad (those guys have very capable soldiers), are actually Arabs (Baggara Arabs). Both states are majority-Muslim as well. There is even a small minority of Arabs in Niger (Diffa Arabs) numbering around 200.000 people, lol. If you guys don't want them we (GCC/Arabia/Arab Near East) should take them along with Horn of Africa and the Swahili Coastline.

Just wait a few decades and their populations will become huge but we (as in Arabs) are in no position to "complain" about such a thing but just saying. Large workforce, armies and all that.

Time to put the Omani empire back to life, lol.

Hey man if you can do it, go for it. But I don't think Iran would like you taking chunks out of their coasts.

 

[Kambojaric]

Iqbal associated the loss and end of ijtehad as the end of Islamic civilization. Mutazilites are the most prominent muslim secularist movement in the world. it is a loss as their doctrine has not only been ignored but has been replaced by violent wahabism. Most muslims don't even know about the muta'zilite movement anyway when it was the best thing that happened to Islam by far.

The irony is if an individual today started practicing the Mu'tazila sect openly, in the vast majority of Muslim countries he would be charged with blasphemy and probably jailed if not executed, and yet regardless of sect all Muslims seem to take great pride in the scientific and philosophical achievements achieved during the Abbasiya period (Mu'tazila period). It was the Abbasiya who built the house of wisdom (bayt al hikma) which attracted scholars such as al Khwarizmi, al Kindi, Sind Ibn Ali (from Mansura, Sindh, Pakistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sind_ibn_Ali). There is no doubt that the intellectual decline of the Muslim world begins with the sacking of Baghdad by Hulegu's horde, whilst almost simultaneously, Qurtuba (Cordoba) was lost in the reconquista to the Catholic monarchs of Castille and Aragon. The intellectual centers of Islam fell and the literalists seized the opportunity. I sometimes think how different the Muslim world would be had this sect of Islam continued dominating the Muslim world.

 

[Al-Andalus]

Hey man if you can do it, go for it.

We might as well try bro.

Anyway I can do with just Hijaz at the end of the day.

#FreeOurBelovedHijaz #JusticeForHijaz #IndependenceForHijaz #HijaziWorldDominationVerySoon etc.

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

The irony is if an individual today started practicing the Mu'tazila sect openly, in the vast majority of Muslim countries he would be charged with blasphemy and probably jailed if not executed

I don't think so, Mu'tazila is an interesting sect. If rebuilding the Mu'tazila sect is what it takes to help Muslims then I am all for it.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Not going to happen. Most importantly the leaders of respective countries will make sure such an federation doesnt happen. It does not suit them.

You have monarch's, Islamic based elected government's, theocracies and secular democracies. How is one supposed to unite them all? Even for one moment, let's imagine, all countries have joined with one another. What about resource sharing? I guess Gulf countries will be willing to share its wealth to poor countries namely Pakistan, Afghanistan or Azerbaijan or Lebanon?

West Germany had to pour in Billions to make East Germany prosper. It affected its overall economy. Does people of rich countries are ready to forego monetory happiness to share with other "brothers"?
Resource sharing is one of the primary misgivings of East Pakistan before its war of independence. It will definitely be a problem as always.

Even if it is a military block, take example NATO, US contributes the bulk of equipment, budget and manpower. Any one country is ready to handle such responsibility? I doubt Russia nor China will help the grouping with weapons knowing pretty well that it will threaten their national interest.

This is very well an hyphenated hypothetical theory much like the dreams of Akhand Bharat.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

This can only be done by force,who(which) is going to do it?


This idea sounds interesting.


What a disappointment,i thought higher of you.
Did it maybe for a second occur to you that it was never about Nobel laurates?

The number of laureates is a symptom.
What has to change if the Muslims want to be the leaders in science and culture is simply the mindset
that studying the Qu'ran is the answer to everything, entertained by too many Muslims.
Creating superstates does not really change any mindset.

 

[VCheng]

What im suggesting is to create Muslim Super states based on the concept of state viability in terms of natural, human, intellectual and military resources.

So which States are absorbing other States to create these "Muslim Super States"? That would be interesting to watch on television. When do the invasions begin?

 

[pak-marine]

How much past do you know ? only from 1947 to 1971 ?

We can go as far as adam &eve or evolution depends how far u want to go back ?

 

[Kambojaric]

I don't think so, Mu'tazila is an interesting sect. If rebuilding the Mu'tazila sect is what it takes to help Muslims then I am all for it.

Would you be willing to say the Quran is a "created" book? My understanding is that they solidly believe in logic and rationality, and where these collide with words written on paper, logic and rationality take precedence. This perfectly explains the scientific achievements of the Islamic world during this period, as it is in essence an empirical view of the world.

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

Would you be willing to say the Quran is a "created" book? My understanding is that they solidly believe in logic and rationality, and where these collide with words written on paper, logic and rationality take precedence. This perfectly explains the scientific achievements of the Islamic world during this period, as it is in essence an empirical view of the world.

Well I am not entirely sure since I am not super religious but I read once that the prophet had his followers memorize the revelations orally and later on, it was written down.


This is a perfectly logical and rationally explanation towards saying that the Quran was written by a man.

Maybe a revival in the Mu'tazila is what is needed? Who knows?

 

[Al-Andalus]

The irony is if an individual today started practicing the Mu'tazila sect openly, in the vast majority of Muslim countries he would be charged with blasphemy and probably jailed if not executed, and yet regardless of sect all Muslims seem to take great pride in the scientific and philosophical achievements achieved during the Abbasiya period (Mu'tazila period). It was the Abbasiya who built the house of wisdom (bayt al hikma) which attracted scholars such as al Khwarizmi, al Kindi, Sind Ibn Ali (from Mansura, Sindh, Pakistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sind_ibn_Ali). There is no doubt that the intellectual decline of the Muslim world begins with the sacking of Baghdad by Hulegu's horde, whilst almost simultaneously, Qurtuba (Cordoba) was lost in the reconquista to the Catholic monarchs of Castille and Aragon. The intellectual centers of Islam fell and the literalists seized the opportunity. I sometimes think how different the Muslim world would be had this sect of Islam continued dominating the Muslim world.

True but the Al-Mu'tazilah sect would still be considered as too orthodox by most Muslims nowadays. Besides it also had some faults that are ignored nowadays by its proponents and some contradicting opinions (IMO) which is also partially why it never really survived its relatively short heydays. Neither among the masses nor the leadership that once endorsed it.

Anyway the life of the founder of the Al-Mu'tazilah school is certainly interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasil_ibn_Ata

and how his views interact with those of a titan like Hasan al Basri (ra) and his early teacher (A Salaf), Abd-Allah ibn Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah (ra).

Would you be willing to say the Quran is a "created" book? My understanding is that they solidly believe in logic and rationality, and where these collide with words written on paper, logic and rationality take precedence. This perfectly explains the scientific achievements of the Islamic world during this period, as it is in essence an empirical view of the world.

From my understanding it was not as black and white as this. There were a lot of nuances. Also a lot of the work of those Muslim scientists during the Islamic Golden Age, did not really contradict with the Qur'an to begin with.

A lot of the controversy surrounded the relationship between ruler and subject and where Islam fitted into this. That is why, often, different rulers had their own interpretations and often it was used for their own gains and Islam/tradition was just used as an excuse to pursue political goals. Which is also why you have Islamic scholar to this day, even in KSA of all places, such as Sheikh Hasan bin Farhan al-Maliki, who are of the opinion that all offensive Islamic conquests had little if nothing to do with the religion itself.
We have to have the time period in mind here. Vastly different era on all fronts.