Two-Decade LCA Engine Effort [Kaveri] Stalls

[PAFAce]

Two-Decade LCA Engine Effort Stalls

NEW DELHI - India's 20-year, nearly $500 million effort to develop a homegrown engine for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has come to a standstill with the Air Force rejection of a co-development offer from France's Snecma.

An Indian Air Force official said the service now will have to search for an off-the-shelf engine overseas to power the aircraft.
Related Topics

India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) was developing the Kaveri engine to power the LCA. Trying to integrate nearly 16,000 parts and subsystems became too complicated and in 2005, the Kaveri engine caught fire when it was first tested on board a Tupolev-16 aircraft in Russia.

GTRE began looking for co-development partners, and after an international tender was released in 2007, NPO Saturn of Russia and Snecma of France were invited to participate but only Snecma of France was short-listed.

GTRE has developed nine prototypes of the Kaveri, but the engine was found to be heavier than the required 8.5 tons and provided less thrust than needed to power the LCA, according to a GTRE scientist.

The first lot of 40 LCAs being introduced, beginning in 2010, will be powered by the GE 404 engine, but the next batch of aircraft will include several features added by the Air Force that increase the weight of the aircraft by 2 tons. The GE 404 will not be powerful enough to fly the heavier plane, the Air Force official said.

New LCAs with bigger engines will be inducted at a later stage. The EJ 200 engine of Eurojet Turbo of Germany and higher thrust GE 414 engine are the two main contenders.

Both Eurojet Turbo and General Electric have given demonstrations of their engines.
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About time, I'd say. I'd like to hear the Indian tax payers' views on this project, which to me has always seemed way too ambitious.

 

[L'Indien]

Two-Decade LCA Engine Effort Stalls

NEW DELHI - India's 20-year, nearly $500 million effort to develop a homegrown engine for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has come to a standstill with the Air Force rejection of a co-development offer from France's Snecma.

An Indian Air Force official said the service now will have to search for an off-the-shelf engine overseas to power the aircraft.
Related Topics

India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) was developing the Kaveri engine to power the LCA. Trying to integrate nearly 16,000 parts and subsystems became too complicated and in 2005, the Kaveri engine caught fire when it was first tested on board a Tupolev-16 aircraft in Russia.

GTRE began looking for co-development partners, and after an international tender was released in 2007, NPO Saturn of Russia and Snecma of France were invited to participate but only Snecma of France was short-listed.

GTRE has developed nine prototypes of the Kaveri, but the engine was found to be heavier than the required 8.5 tons and provided less thrust than needed to power the LCA, according to a GTRE scientist.

The first lot of 40 LCAs being introduced, beginning in 2010, will be powered by the GE 404 engine, but the next batch of aircraft will include several features added by the Air Force that increase the weight of the aircraft by 2 tons. The GE 404 will not be powerful enough to fly the heavier plane, the Air Force official said.

New LCAs with bigger engines will be inducted at a later stage. The EJ 200 engine of Eurojet Turbo of Germany and higher thrust GE 414 engine are the two main contenders.

Both Eurojet Turbo and General Electric have given demonstrations of their engines.
------------------
About time, I'd say. I'd like to hear the Indian tax payers' views on this project, which to me has always seemed way too ambitious.

It says that the Kaveri project has come to standstill...doesnt say that it has been scrapped.....
Anyways...to answer your question....yes the project is ambitious considering that we had no prior experience....but no...its not "too ambitious" I do trust our scientific community...if they can send a spaceship to Moon, then they can very well build a ******** jet engine as well......despite all the setbacks and delays....at least they are trying...
With regards to the money part...$500 million are peanuts compared to the $12 billion or so we are going to spend to buy fighter jets...

As a taxpayer, I definitely prefer our govt. spending another $500 million in something that will encourage and enhance local research and development and allow us to build our own jets eventually rather than spending another $12 billion after a decade or two to import more jets.
I am sure our scientists have taken a lot from this project and will eventually succeed....amen!

 

[PAFAce]

It says that the Kaveri project has come to standstill...doesnt say that it has been scrapped.....
Anyways...to answer your question....yes the project is ambitious considering that we had no prior experience....but no...its not "too ambitious" I do trust our scientific community...if they can send a spaceship to Moon, then they can very well build a ******** jet engine as well......despite all the setbacks and delays....at least they are trying...
With regards to the money part...$500 million are peanuts compared to the $12 billion or so we are going to spend to buy fighter jets...

As a taxpayer, I definitely prefer our govt. spending another $500 million in something that will encourage and enhance local research and development and allow us to build our own jets eventually rather than spending another $12 billion after a decade or two to import more jets.
I am sure our scientists have taken a lot from this project and will eventually succeed....amen!

I commend your confidence in your scientists and engineers, but you missed my point. I was referring to the mismanagement of resources by the government and DRDO. Scientists and engineers don't increase costs or slow down the pace of work. Like any project that has taken this much beating, there comes a time when one must consider to cut the losses and run. Live to fight another day. The LCA Block 1 proved that sticking with failing projects does not do your country any good, and the mistake should not be repeated with Kaveri.

The C-17 Globemaster almost never came into existence. During the Republican government when the program started, it was over budget and behind schedule, and was not going anywhere soon. When Bill Clinton's Democrat government came in, they gave the program an ultimatum, "you have 2 years to straighten up, or we'll pull your funding". Companies working on the design, such as McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing), shut down all design work for 6 months and went on an aggressive budget cutting mission. They rethought everything and took every step possible to save the program, going as far as to reduce some 240 bolts from the airframe. Eventually, in about a year and a half, the program was back on track. Their financing was maintained, and the rest is history.

India didn't do this with the LCA. They should do it with Kaveri, but I am afraid there are just too many people and politicians who would turn this into a patriotic debate, saying somewhat along the lines of what you have claimed, "believe in the Indian scientific community. We can go to the moon, so we can build an engine". No doubt you could, but at what cost? Almost half the country is below the international poverty line, it only makes sense to stop throwing money down pits.

 

[Spitfighter]

Well we have no option but to keep trying, we need to build our weapons and we need to build a credible military industrial complex. Continuing research is imperative as important lessons will be learned and one day hopefully we'll have a fully functioning engine that we can mass produce. I see no shame in cooperating with other countries, no point wasting time and money reinventing the wheel. I wonder why the air force rejected the proposal to co develop the engine with the french.

 

[paritosh]

I commend your confidence in your scientists and engineers, but you missed my point. I was referring to the mismanagement of resources by the government and DRDO. Scientists and engineers don't increase costs or slow down the pace of work. Like any project that has taken this much beating, there comes a time when one must consider to cut the losses and run. Live to fight another day. The LCA Block 1 proved that sticking with failing projects does not do your country any good, and the mistake should not be repeated with Kaveri.

The C-17 Globemaster almost never came into existence. During the Republican government when the program started, it was over budget and behind schedule, and was not going anywhere soon. When Bill Clinton's Democrat government came in, they gave the program an ultimatum, "you have 2 years to straighten up, or we'll pull your funding". Companies working on the design, such as McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing), shut down all design work for 6 months and went on an aggressive budget cutting mission. They rethought everything and took every step possible to save the program, going as far as to reduce some 240 bolts from the airframe. Eventually, in about a year and a half, the program was back on track. Their financing was maintained, and the rest is history.

India didn't do this with the LCA. They should do it with Kaveri, but I am afraid there are just too many people and politicians who would turn this into a patriotic debate, saying somewhat along the lines of what you have claimed, "believe in the Indian scientific community. We can go to the moon, so we can build an engine". No doubt you could, but at what cost? Almost half the country is below the international poverty line, it only makes sense to stop throwing money down pits.

this is a classic capitalist system vs socialism debate.Your point is very good indeed...the US relies on Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman for it's airforce...these are private entities which excel in outperforming each other.Their conduct is closely monitored by the American govt. in choosing the foreign customers of these firms.
We have much of our defense industries in infancy but more importantly in total govt hands without any domestic competition.The elected govt of the people does not allocate the funds to a Private company but builds the stuff itself.
Now the competition is being provided by having alternatives in the form of Snecma and Saturn...it may just add fuel to the Kaveri.
I would personally prefer the Kaveri experience to be shared in aeronautical classes in colleges.

 

[devd]

failure leads to success i agree.

 

[New Vision]

Money has to be spent, always. Nothing comes without a cost. Experience gained with developing the Kaveri will not be lost. Much work has already been done . With a tie up, they will refine the failed aspect of the Kaveri, and this will help us. With that we can initiate new efforts for bigger engines. WE have to be self dependant, and that is for the benefit of the taxpayer. Aeronautically we are still way behind, but the fact that we have a programme in place will ensure success, hopefully sooner than later. I think India has to work out a system of how they can use foreign brain power for their projects, even the western powers are doing it. I also think they should get private enterprises on board, that way there would be better management (very much like the example given on Boeing)

 

[BSF]

Sooner or later we need to make our own engine...there is no point re inventing the wheel.

Kaveri seems to be the sore ego point of GTRE,I am quite sure that sooner or later either domestically or with foreign help they will complete this
The current deadline is that it will power a LCA Tejas by 2009 December.

Developing an engine from scratch is not easy even china is having problems in their jet engines.

So I am all hopeful for it

Wasn't the Indian MCA supposed to be powered by Kaveri Engine ?
Here
Ya I know that its wiki...but hey it is something

 

[ant80]

The current deadline is that it will power a LCA Tejas by 2009 December.

I very much hope that timetable is maintained.

 

[PAFAce]

Sooner or later we need to make our own engine...there is no point re inventing the wheel.

Kaveri seems to be the sore ego point of GTRE,I am quite sure that sooner or later either domestically or with foreign help they will complete this
The current deadline is that it will power a LCA Tejas by 2009 December.

Developing an engine from scratch is not easy even china is having problems in their jet engines.

So I am all hopeful for it

Wasn't the Indian MCA supposed to be powered by Kaveri Engine ?
Here
Ya I know that its wiki...but hey it is something

The LCA Block 2 will most like not have the Kaveri engine when it first comes out, according to Aviation Weekly. The engine has more problems than the LCA itself! Also, LCA Block 2 will most likely not fly in 2009. They are looking for European engines and equipment, including a French AESA radar.

Also, if the MCA is going to be as good as they want it to be (Eurofighter/F-35 level or above), they will not install the current Kaveri engine in it. Maybe an upgrade, butt hat won't be this engine.

The 3 most important things before posting on web forums:
Research, research, research.

 

[BSF]

The LCA Block 2 will most like not have the Kaveri engine when it first comes out, according to Aviation Weekly. The engine has more problems than the LCA itself! Also, LCA Block 2 will most likely not fly in 2009. They are looking for European engines and equipment, including a French AESA radar.

Hmmm...I never said LCA block 2 will have kaveri engine
I just said that the first test of LCA with kaveri will be held in 2009 December and that too according to Wikipedia

At that time, the DRDO had hoped to have the Kaveri engine ready for use on the Tejas by 2009-10.

Read

Also, if the MCA is going to be as good as they want it to be (Eurofighter/F-35 level or above), they will not install the current Kaveri engine in it. Maybe an upgrade, butt hat won't be this engine.

Read
Kaveri

Read Read Read

 

[kallu_be]

As long as mediocrity and reservations allowed in the research institutions these things are bound to happen, a couple years back i went for a conference on "Formal Methods" held in TIFR where a scientist from BARC had given presentation which i rather found subtle when compared to presentations given by profs from IIT's, TIFR and other univs. Govt need to adapt different pay/recruitment policy when comes to hiring talent for this kind of research rather than just wasting money.

 

[notting hill]

As long as mediocrity and reservations allowed in the research institutions these things are bound to happen, a couple years back i went for a conference on "Formal Verification" held in TIFR where a scientist from BARC had given presentation which i rather found subtle when compared to presentations given by profs from IIT's, TIFR and other univs. Govt need to adapt different pay/recruitment policy when comes to hiring talent for these kind of research rather than just wasting money.

pal going by your statement with the kinda PRESENTATIONS given by IIT and other institute professors, they shuld be churning out ppl fr the scientific community at will..if you judge ppl by their presentation skills and that too quoting one instance then dont you think its unfair on the scientist and i am not sure that couple of years back if he had started talkin rocket science or atomic knowledge in detail,you would have got it wihout you having any practical experience in it.. the answer lies in brain drain.. where ppl go fr greener pastures abroad to make a career .. with so much money and politics on a project at stake do you think some incompetent scientist ( considering that he was incompetent) would be allowed to come anywhere near it especially when everything is going wrong with the engine..

 

[kallu_be]

pal going by your statement with the kinda PRESENTATIONS given by IIT and other institute professors, they shuld be churning out ppl fr the scientific community at will..if you judge ppl by their presentation skills and that too quoting one instance then dont you think its unfair on the scientist and i am not sure that couple of years back if he had started talkin rocket science or atomic knowledge in detail,you would have got it wihout you having any practical experience in it.. the answer lies in brain drain.. where ppl go fr greener pastures abroad to make a career .. with so much money and politics on a project at stake do you think some incompetent scientist ( considering that he was incompetent) would be allowed to come anywhere near it especially when everything is going wrong with the engine..

Welcome to Inefficient Indian bureaucracy my friend, what i have revealed is only a tip of iceberg. I just don't want to reveal any more than what i already did especially in this forum. One should have a friend in DRDO to know how things go on there. All i want to say is even if a enthu person joins in DRDO, he will leave with in an year due to internal politics/working under mediocre boss or take a chill pill and continue working on insignificant projects.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

....

About time, I'd say. I'd like to hear the Indian tax payers' views on this project, which to me has always seemed way too ambitious.

I do not have research or knowledge about the subject, but here goes anyway.

I like the idea of homegrown research, like it a lot. I support it and would like it to continue. But I am getting concerned about the operationalization of technology and perhaps the need for greater transparency in what is happening.

The army keeps rejecting Arjun (though it has been inducted) and the techies keep saying it's great. The LCA project has been going for a while; now this news. The missile program has several versions so I am not sure what's up.

But what makes me uncomfortable is that that the projects seem to be perpetually in development. Now my impression could be completely wrong; it seems that way to me.

What I would want is a complete examination of the process, dispassionate evaluation of our failures and more, rationalized investment from there on.