Twitter Q&A on JF-17 Thunder Program with Horus & Oscar

[Aasimkhan]

These guys forget what military dictators did to this country. Ayub essentially killed political system in Pakistan, called Mohtarma Fatima Jinnah a whore, did not let free and fair elections b/c she could clearly win. Some accounts suggest she had wounds on head when buried. Yahya was partying with general Rani while Dhaka collapsed, Zia made this country a haven for terrorists and thugs from all over the world, and Musharriffraff, is on run, the father of duplicity and deceit. Military never allow genuine leadership to surface, all we see is psychos like Imran Khan with time tested chayla-chamchas.

Still data shows Pakistan's economy was progressing under dictators and faltering under SO_CALLED_ELECTED leaders.

Indians like to put their SU30MKIs through the Pugachev's Cobra maneuver and consider it the silver bullet for all dogfight victories. A smart PAF pilot will like to down the MKI before such a situation arrives.

True in general, except there are a few factors to consider in WVR. SU-30s larger size means larger Gs on the pilot for same speed and same maneuver as compared to Thunder. I remember reading a long time ago about an exercise between Indians and US (?). The author said the Indians had one King move against the Western jet with their SU-30 and they kept repeating it the whole time. I don't exactly remember it, but if I had to guess, it would be attaining greater potential energy while at the six, then slowing down and using TVC to create a yaw which leads to pointing the jet exactly at the enemy. Coupled with advanced WVR, this would be a death warrant for the Thunder. The obvious tactic is not to let SU-30 gain potential energy advantage over you. It's something our pilots can train for.

 

[SabzShaheen]

Thank you for editing the post. Both Hodor and Oscar have contributed towards the knowledge base of this forum. As such you can probably say it relates to information gained from conversations with PAF people and things which they have been allowed to put on the net. You need to know what people have been writing to know whether to believe them or not.
Since you have apologized for your post allow me to apologize for mine.
A


I will await a detailed response from you. Your posts are illuminating and bring aspects to the fore whichthe forum has not had before even though we have had senior AF retired people as members in the past and at present as well.
A


if you have a better explanation please contribute. criticism without explanation and an alternative response/narrative is never constructive.
A


I am a simple old man and dont claim to be anything more than that.You have assumed more than What is there so the fault is yours not mine. However you have edited your post and I have apologized for mine. Do we need to carry on? Shall we move on? The rest of your post I have responded to.
A

No let's move on. I'm sorry, I actually edited the first post after the second (incredibly rude) one. I should delete it. I was completely in the wrong.

 

[khanasifm]

Let's first see block 3 first flight then we can tell what has changed like Cft?? Additional pylons irst?? Diamond shape at the front to reduce frontal cross section signature Etc internal things are known aesa etc

 

[MastanKhan]

No let's move on. I'm sorry, I actually edited the first post after the second (incredibly rude) one. I should delete it. I was completely in the wrong.

Hi,

You should not have deleted your posts---. Any analysis and criticism about defense matters must always be ruthless and brutally honest .

 

[SabzShaheen]

Hi,

You should not have deleted your posts---. Any analysis and criticism about defense matters must always be ruthless and brutally honest .

Thanks : ). I understand but it wasn't just criticism. It was also me being rude to a member of the PDF team for an invalid reason.

 

[MastanKhan]

Thanks : ). I understand but it wasn't just criticism. It was also me being rude to a member of the PDF team for an invalid reason.

Hi,

This is defense of pakistan we are talking about. For the truth to come out---there has to be a fire lit under the ar-se---.

Everyone here wants to maintain the status quo---every superstar thinks that their little Dinkle will destroy the enemy's super snake---.

These idiots live in a fantasy land---they say---we will give a tough time to the enemy---we will bloody their nose---.

They have no clue what happens after the fact---. When the enemy takes over---none of these generals will die---and none of their family members will die---it is you and me whose families will be devastated and all these morons families who think it is no big deal.

When the enemy conquers---what does it need---it needs influential people from the other side to rule.

That is exactly the reason that the Paf did not go for a potent system after 9/11 or in the 90's for the M2k---and it was not because of funds---.

Paf COWED down to India---they decided---if they did not pose any serious threat they would not have to go to war---so let us keep the air force weak---.

If we had a stronger air force---these terrorist activities by india---do you think that we had kept quiet---those bombings and incursion on LOC would have happened---absolutely not as much---.

I talk about the deceit of the Paf generals---because it shows as an open book to me.

 

[SabzShaheen]

Hi,

This is defense of pakistan we are talking about. For the truth to come out---there has to be a fire lit under the ar-se---.

Everyone here wants to maintain the status quo---every superstar thinks that their little Dinkle will destroy the enemy's super snake---.

These idiots live in a fantasy land---they say---we will give a tough time to the enemy---we will bloody their nose---.

They have no clue what happens after the fact---. When the enemy takes over---none of these generals will die---and none of their family members will die---it is you and me whose families will be devastated and all these morons families who think it is no big deal.

When the enemy conquers---what does it need---it needs influential people from the other side to rule.

That is exactly the reason that the Paf did not go for a potent system after 9/11 or in the 90's for the M2k---and it was not because of funds---.

Paf COWED down to India---they decided---if they did not pose any serious threat they would not have to go to war---so let us keep the air force weak---.

If we had a stronger air force---these terrorist activities by india---do you think that we had kept quiet---those bombings and incursion on LOC would have happened---absolutely not as much---.

I talk about the deceit of the Paf generals---because it shows as an open book to me.

Thank you very much for your post. I do understand where you're coming from but I hope you understand that it is a bit difficult to accept; I feel as though almost every Pakistani - including myself - places a huge amount of trust in our armed forces as they are the guardians of our homeland. For this reason, I feel as though they have the responsibility to be truthful at all times to the nation and should provide the best possible defence that they can.

 

[SQ8]

The issue with all analysis is that there will always be critique from both informed and ill-informed or spurious sources.

Analysis isn't perfect nor is it always unbiased especially on twitter

Questions are answered per 144 characters and giving a detailed explanation to what is truly a representation of common folks out for some gleeful sugary answers isnt easy.

Which is why my article(s) on the JF-17 exist to answer to more detail the why of the aircraft & Quwa(@Bilal Khan (Quwa) has write ups with the what.

The rest is either wild speculation or just aimless tirades.

 

[SabzShaheen]

The issue with all analysis is that there will always be critique from both informed and ill-informed or spurious sources.

Analysis isn't perfect nor is it always unbiased especially on twitter

Questions are answered per 144 characters and giving a detailed explanation to what is truly a representation of common folks out for some gleeful sugary answers isnt easy.

Which is why my article(s) on the JF-17 exist to answer to more detail the why of the aircraft & Quwa(@Bilal Khan (Quwa) has write ups with the what.

The rest is either wild speculation or just aimless tirades.

Thank you. Could you please tell me where I could find some of your articles? I am already familiar with Bilal Khan's articles and Quwa.org and am a big fan of his.

 

[nana41]

@Horus @Oscar MANY THANKS! A few questions plz:

1. What is the top speed of Block 2?
2. What is the planned top speed of Block 3?
3. How come engine smoke has virtually disappeared from Thunders seen in latest aerial demos on March 23 and Aug 14?
4. What is the best sustained turn rate for Thunder and at what speed?
5. Per @messiach a lot of work has already been done on engine improvement for Block 3. Is it going to be RD-93 MA with FADEC for Block 3, or the same old RD-93?
6. What's the plan for an EW suit on par with Rafale?
7. What's the plan for a weapons package on par with Rafale?

Such information will be very useful for our adversaries.

 

[CriticalThought]

Such information will be very useful for our adversaries.

Such information is available for fighter like F-16. As countries such as Nigeria and Myanmar start buying it, it will only become more and more available. This means, any strategy based on keeping this secret is not going to work. You should have a better strategy.

 

[denel]

Pakistan had tested something derived from or related to the Cobra (see image), but after Denel Optronics' absorption by Carl Zeiss Optronics and its absorption by Airbus DS, that avenue basically ended. Airbus DS had fully dropped the ball on the entire optronics front and failed to release new marketable products, leaving the PAF to push the inclusion of HMD/S from Block-I to the Block-II and (after the collapse of the Thales deal) Block-III.

Thankfully, Airbus DS spun off its Optronics and Electronics divisions into Hensoldt, and Hensoldt Optronics South Africa (HOSA) is intent on growing in the optronics space. Interestingly, HOSA is supplying the periscopes and optronic masts for Pakistan's Agosta 90B submarines. So there may be hope yet if HOSA decides to use its R&D and expertise to develop a new HMD/S system.

Indeed, this was the biggest mistake our government made to allow our core teams to be absorbed in the form of exchanging and creating further opportunities as part of the massive upgrade programs; many such dis-ventures are underway and rightfully so as it allows out of the box thinking which is what is required.

Thank you very much for your post. I do understand where you're coming from but I hope you understand that it is a bit difficult to accept; I feel as though almost every Pakistani - including myself - places a huge amount of trust in our armed forces as they are the guardians of our homeland. For this reason, I feel as though they have the responsibility to be truthful at all times to the nation and should provide the best possible defence that they can.

Unfortunately this is a valid truth my dear friend Mastankhan raised; corruption and self interest have plagued both our of countries and we have similar challenges with politicians who have lined their own pockets. Being honest is the right policy. A few weeks back I was at Wits campus and saw your Consulate defence attaches there; i was told they have received scholarships to study where - my first reaction; these were 50yr old studying geology? You must be joking. Ultimate fact is they stiffle South African foreign scholarships from ordinary Pak civilian kids who would have been a great asset and take their places to get line up stipends.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Indeed, this was the biggest mistake our government made to allow our core teams to be absorbed in the form of exchanging and creating further opportunities as part of the massive upgrade programs; many such dis-ventures are underway and rightfully so as it allows out of the box thinking which is what is required.

Securing a the JF-17 HMD/S market (lifetime scope of 200-300+ jets) would be neat. No real competition as of yet and HOSA can also tie any HMD/S of its own to the A-Darter and (in case of helicopters and light combat aircraft like Mwari) EO/IR/Lase turrets.

 

[khanasifm]

Indeed, this was the biggest mistake our government made to allow our core teams to be absorbed in the form of exchanging and creating further opportunities as part of the massive upgrade programs; many such dis-ventures are underway and rightfully so as it allows out of the box thinking which is what is required.


Unfortunately this is a valid truth my dear friend Mastankhan raised; corruption and self interest have plagued both our of countries and we have similar challenges with politicians who have lined their own pockets. Being honest is the right policy. A few weeks back I was at Wits campus and saw your Consulate defence attaches there; i was told they have received scholarships to study where - my first reaction; these were 50yr old studying geology? You must be joking. Ultimate fact is they stiffle South African foreign scholarships from ordinary Pak civilian kids who would have been a great asset and take their places to get line up stipends.

Military scholarships are not for civilians most country mods/Dods have mil to mil scholarships which are only meant for military and not civilians US DoD has a number for foreign Services to study at local Univ nothing to do with civilian route in fact a lot of slots are
Never availed at all and sometimes go unused

 

[denel]

Military scholarships are not for civilians most country mods/Dods have mil to mil scholarships which are only meant for military and not civilians US DoD has a number for foreign Services to study at local Univ nothing to do with civilian route in fact a lot of slots are
Never availed at all and sometimes go unused

This is NOT military scholarships; These are for exchange students between south african universities and Pak; military affiliations are not considered for this purpose. I am pointing out because of my affiliation to academic circles at Wits/Pretoria/Potch/Rhodes universities. This is a classic case of stealing from civilian kids who would have studied geology and mining. Instead these fat bellied personnel are there together with their wives. Sorry, stealing is stealing and deserves to be called out.