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TURNING POINT IN THE HISTORY OF INDIAN SUBCONTINENT

I agree with you, but some people use concocted history to buttress their claims of exclusiveness and to marginalize certain minorities. Their arguments need to be debunked. Unfortunately, this attempt at marginalization is a current and ongoing problem, not a historical footnote.

...and debunking is not a pleasant task, nor a desirable one. But someone has to do it, and to put the correct picture in front of the unwary, who might otherwise think that the concoctions are the real thing, and that the claims of exclusiveness are genuine.
 
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Economically, India started to go downhill during Aurangzeb's (and the British after) reign if I am not mistaken.
 
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Precisely!

My whole argument here is to examine the term "indigenous" since these people claim that Vedic culture is "indigenous" to India whereas "foreign faiths" aren't.

However, the fact is that, prior to the British era, the subcontinent was more like Europe than anything else: a collection of loose kingdoms which were united into a political entity for very brief periods -- around 200 years total throughout history. Only the Maurya Empire united the entirety of the subcontinent into a single political unit prior to the British era. There was always cultural India, but to claim indigenous status based on that is a tautology: it's a circular argument since the whole definition of "cultural India" is regions that contributed to Indian culture.

I could not disagree more.

It helps, of course, not to believe that Vedic culture is indigenous. For starters, Vedic culture is not shorthand for Indian culture, as some cultural fundamentalists seem to believe. Vedic culture was as starkly different from our contemporary culture as was chalk and cheese. We are not migratory people, measuring our wealth in heads of cattle, protected by our chieftain king and his trusty war-band, mounted on steeds bred on the steppes, armed with iron weapons superior to any that we might encounter with foemen other than our own kind, riding war chariots into battle, celebrating with feasts punctuated by draughts of soma and choice cuts from the pick of our herds, worshipping the great Thunder God, the bringer of victory, and revering our wise men, who compose hymns in lofty language for us to sing.

Nor are we the people of the later ages who survived domestication and the shock of taking to an agricultural life, and measured life in the number of cattle we lifted from our neighbours in wild, hard-riding raids, maintained royal courts where musicians, dancers, bards, and wandering holy men regaled the king and his boon companions, while the husbandmen and merchants went soberly about their business, building bonds of trade where there were bonds of tribe and kinship, a life where one gave up worldly care when the blood ran thin, and retired to a gentler life with one's life partner, under the spreading greenwoods near a pleasant river.

This kind of harking back to the past is so singularly phony that it hurts. The vision of these cultural Luddites compresses the life-style of the Vedic era, with that of Puranic times, with historical information about imperial India, and the early mediaeval ages, all into one mish-mash which makes singularly little sense, either as reconstruction or as a culturally coherent vision. On the one hand, there is the rich, civilised, sophisticated world of the nagar badhu, the merchant prince and evil kotwals, all dancing around a royal court famed across many countries, adorned by famous poets and playwrights, perhaps by great musicians, and reigned over by accomplished and learned kings or great war-lords, or both; on the other, there is the bucolic vision of the riders off the steppes, picking their way across the rivers to mount great attacks on neighbours of their own kind, when not attacking the settlements of the autochthones and bringing them to realise the great desirability of the new culture.

How can anyone, even these deranged idiots, compress around 2,000 years of cultural existence, punctuated by major wars towards the latter one-third, imagine that a homogeneous culture would inhabit it with no change? And if they acknowledge change, which part is the part that is Vedic, the earlier, or the later? For the two were so incredibly different, the difference between high noon and the early dawn.

On the other hand, the disagreement.

Why do you, and other apologists for Pakistan as a counter-weight to this Vedic vision, insist on taking the mistakes of the deluded Vedic visionaries and riding it on a pendulum swing in the opposite direction? Why, for instance, do you, all of you, with not many exceptions that I can name, obsess to the point of clinical extremism about the political entity named India that exists today, and insist that such an India never existed politically in the past? Why is it that you do not sit for a moment and think through the fact that India was the foreigner's name for us, never our name for ourselves? Why, because mediaeval raiders and marauders called this land Hind do you imagine that the people called themselves Hind? Or derivatives thereof? Why do you emerge flushed from these discoveries, exuberant about the fact that never in the past was there ever a Republic of India? What significance does this have? and what discoveries have you made by stating this?

Finally, what relevance does this have to the cultural unity of India, which allowed a traveller from Pragjyotishpur to know that he would be comfortable in Poompuhar or in Kusumapura alike, that he would have his vocation in life recognised and accepted, that he would get food that would be acceptable to him in terms of what he normally ate, that the exotic changes in clothing and attire were finally minor changes only, that the language that he would find might be comprehensible or not, but that he would be assured of finding those who could speak a common language, that the coinage he carried would be honoured and exchanged for local coin, and used for food, and drink, and clothes and shelter and transport?

I really don't 'get' what point you and your ilk are trying to make out of this India never existed before 1947 idiocy.
 
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Developereo said:
I don't see the justification for taking the Vedic texts at face value. Where is the archaeological evidence for a united political entity called Bharat? The way I see it, the Vedas, like all religious texts, are a combination of historical narrative combined with allegorical stories. Given the fog of antiquity, it's hard to declare which parts are which.

With that first sentence, I agree. Without it, politely - so politely that my jaws hurt - I disagree.
 
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I could not disagree more.

It helps, of course, not to believe that Vedic culture is indigenous. For starters, Vedic culture is not shorthand for Indian culture, as some cultural fundamentalists seem to believe. Vedic culture was as starkly different from our contemporary culture as was chalk and cheese. We are not migratory people, measuring our wealth in heads of cattle, protected by our chieftain king and his trusty war-band, mounted on steeds bred on the steppes, armed with iron weapons superior to any that we might encounter with foemen other than our own kind, riding war chariots into battle, celebrating with feasts punctuated by draughts of soma and choice cuts from the pick of our herds, worshipping the great Thunder God, the bringer of victory, and revering our wise men, who compose hymns in lofty language for us to sing.

Nor are we the people of the later ages who survived domestication and the shock of taking to an agricultural life, and measured life in the number of cattle we lifted from our neighbours in wild, hard-riding raids, maintained royal courts where musicians, dancers, bards, and wandering holy men regaled the king and his boon companions, while the husbandmen and merchants went soberly about their business, building bonds of trade where there were bonds of tribe and kinship, a life where one gave up worldly care when the blood ran thin, and retired to a gentler life with one's life partner, under the spreading greenwoods near a pleasant river.

This kind of harking back to the past is so singularly phony that it hurts. The vision of these cultural Luddites compresses the life-style of the Vedic era, with that of Puranic times, with historical information about imperial India, and the early mediaeval ages, all into one mish-mash which makes singularly little sense, either as reconstruction or as a culturally coherent vision. On the one hand, there is the rich, civilised, sophisticated world of the nagar badhu, the merchant prince and evil kotwals, all dancing around a royal court famed across many countries, adorned by famous poets and playwrights, perhaps by great musicians, and reigned over by accomplished and learned kings or great war-lords, or both; on the other, there is the bucolic vision of the riders off the steppes, picking their way across the rivers to mount great attacks on neighbours of their own kind, when not attacking the settlements of the autochthones and bringing them to realise the great desirability of the new culture.

How can anyone, even these deranged idiots, compress around 2,000 years of cultural existence, punctuated by major wars towards the latter one-third, imagine that a homogeneous culture would inhabit it with no change? And if they acknowledge change, which part is the part that is Vedic, the earlier, or the later? For the two were so incredibly different, the difference between high noon and the early dawn.

On the other hand, the disagreement.

Why do you, and other apologists for Pakistan as a counter-weight to this Vedic vision, insist on taking the mistakes of the deluded Vedic visionaries and riding it on a pendulum swing in the opposite direction? Why, for instance, do you, all of you, with not many exceptions that I can name, obsess to the point of clinical extremism about the political entity named India that exists today, and insist that such an India never existed politically in the past? Why is it that you do not sit for a moment and think through the fact that India was the foreigner's name for us, never our name for ourselves? Why, because mediaeval raiders and marauders called this land Hind do you imagine that the people called themselves Hind? Or derivatives thereof? Why do you emerge flushed from these discoveries, exuberant about the fact that never in the past was there ever a Republic of India? What significance does this have? and what discoveries have you made by stating this?

Finally, what relevance does this have to the cultural unity of India, which allowed a traveller from Pragjyotishpur to know that he would be comfortable in Poompuhar or in Kusumapura alike, that he would have his vocation in life recognised and accepted, that he would get food that would be acceptable to him in terms of what he normally ate, that the exotic changes in clothing and attire were finally minor changes only, that the language that he would find might be comprehensible or not, but that he would be assured of finding those who could speak a common language, that the coinage he carried would be honoured and exchanged for local coin, and used for food, and drink, and clothes and shelter and transport?

I really don't 'get' what point you and your ilk are trying to make out of this India never existed before 1947 idiocy.

The point is the leaders of modern India (Nehru and his ilk) named their part of the subcontinent India in order to try and emphasize Pakistan leading to the partition of India. Why when the indigenous people of the subcontinent never referred to their country as India did then Nehru name the country as such if not to score some brownie points by throwing a cheap shot towards Pakistan?? You said it yourself India was never the name of the subcontinent for the people who lived there and was used by outsiders/invaders. Why should Pakistan accept India existed before 1947?? In reality it never did and was a collection of kingdoms like everyone knows and even when it was referred to in the singular it was always referred to as Bharat (by locals) never India. In fact doesn't India mean people of the Indus?? Where the hell is the Indus in India?? Why was Jinnah opposed to Nehru choosing this name?? If you can answer all those questions you will realize not only was Nehru using the name of India as a political tool to try and demonize Pakistan but you will also realize why Pakistanis will never accept modern India trying to claim the whole subcontinent as its own.
 
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The point is the leaders of modern India (Nehru and his ilk) named their part of the subcontinent India in order to try and emphasize Pakistan leading to the partition of India. Why when the indigenous people of the subcontinent never referred to their country as India did then Nehru name the country as such if not to score some brownie points by throwing a cheap shot towards Pakistan?? You said it yourself India was never the name of the subcontinent for the people who lived there and was used by outsiders/invaders. Why should Pakistan accept India existed before 1947?? In reality it never did and was a collection of kingdoms like everyone knows and even when it was referred to in the singular it was always referred to as Bharat (by locals) never India. In fact doesn't India mean people of the Indus?? Where the hell is the Indus in India?? Why was Jinnah opposed to Nehru choosing this name?? If you can answer all those questions you will realize not only was Nehru using the name of India as a political tool to try and demonize Pakistan but you will also realize why Pakistanis will never accept modern India trying to claim the whole subcontinent as its own.

Sorry, that argument of Pakistan being the eternal victim doesn't wash, here as in most other cases.

First, the Dominion of India was the successor state to the colony of India. There was no need to 'select' the name India, it was already present. It was a presence in international meetings and conferences and it was a name by which India had already identified herself as a modern political entity.

Second, the name that India called herself within India as Indians was introduced into the constitution; India happens to be officially Bharat as well. I don't see why we should not have retained both the commonly recognised foreigners' version as well as the indigenous version; a great many countries do so. Switzerland, for instance, Hungary for another, and we could go on. Even if we were a minority of one, I don't see why, having declared herself peculiarly singular, Pakistan should wish to cancel and put on the shelf the name that she had as a part of a greater whole earlier. Partition is what Pakistan's leaders chose, eyes wide open. What right did that confer on her with regard to what the original and successor domain sought to name herself?
 
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In reality it never did and was a collection of kingdoms like everyone knows and even when it was referred to in the singular it was always referred to as Bharat (by locals) never India. In fact doesn't India mean people of the Indus?? Where the hell is the Indus in India??

India was not our name for ourselves, but it was the name used by outsiders for the entire subcontinent (see ancient Greek maps, for example).

So yes, it is a shared name, and if Pakistan were to call itself "Western India", for example, I do not think we would have a right to object.
 
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The point is the leaders of modern India (Nehru and his ilk) named their part of the subcontinent India in order to try and emphasize Pakistan leading to the partition of India. Why when the indigenous people of the subcontinent never referred to their country as India did then Nehru name the country as such if not to score some brownie points by throwing a cheap shot towards Pakistan?? You said it yourself India was never the name of the subcontinent for the people who lived there and was used by outsiders/invaders. Why should Pakistan accept India existed before 1947?? In reality it never did and was a collection of kingdoms like everyone knows and even when it was referred to in the singular it was always referred to as Bharat (by locals) never India. In fact doesn't India mean people of the Indus?? Where the hell is the Indus in India?? Why was Jinnah opposed to Nehru choosing this name?? If you can answer all those questions you will realize not only was Nehru using the name of India as a political tool to try and demonize Pakistan but you will also realize why Pakistanis will never accept modern India trying to claim the whole subcontinent as its own.

This, again, is a self-concocted story that Pakistanis use to beat their breasts and make a song and dance about. India started by being the country of the Indus, and the name was extended to the greater cultural mass as early as Megasthenes, the ambassador of Seleukos to the court of the Mauryas. This was still before Christ. Why you cling to the delusion that the name India referred to the thin strip of land around the Indus, and feel aggrieved is a matter between you and a psychiatrist of your own choice.

India was not our name for ourselves, but it was the name used by outsiders for the entire subcontinent (see ancient Greek maps, for example).

So yes, it is a shared name, and if Pakistan were to call itself "Western India", for example, I do not think we would have a right to object.

I find myself reluctantly compelled to agree.

Economically, India started to go downhill during Aurangzeb's (and the British after) reign if I am not mistaken.


Why do you think so? Are you led to this conclusion by data, and would you mind sharing it with the forum at large? Or is it surmise, and if so, what is that surmise based on?
 
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Very strange.

And the earlier entry of the Indo-Aryan speaking tribes, who converted the whole of the north of the sub-continent to their way of speaking, their religion, their social customs? That is not something that turned the country on its head, and led to the permanent division between Indo-Aryan language and Dravidian language groups?


1. If Hinduism was a religion of the so called Indo-Aryan speaking tribes from Central Asia, why is it that there has never been any substantial historic evidence of Hinduism in Central Asia itself?


2. If Hinduism was the by-product of Central Asian Aryan Speaking tribes, why do these Central Asians make references to various locations in India and South Asia geographically, such as rivers like Yamuna, Ganga, Sindhu, etc?
 
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It helps, of course, not to believe that Vedic culture is indigenous.

I fully accept that the place of Vedic culture in the broader Indian cultural context is debated. However, I was conceding the most extreme position for arguments' sake that Vedic culture is 100% indigenous to the IVC and that it forms the bedrock of Indian culture. Even with that concession, my point was to posit the irrelevance of a large scale physical "Aryan" migration (genetics) and to focus on the core question of what is "indigenous" and what is "foreign", since that is supposedly the big difference between Vedic and Islamic influences within modern Indian culture.

I really don't 'get' what point you and your ilk are trying to make out of this India never existed before 1947 idiocy.

That goes to the heart of the indigenous v/s foreign debate. I wrote "Indian" as a sloppy shorthand for the subcontinent; we could substitute the cultural, not political, entity Bharat instead and it wouldn't change anything.

I suggest that the only way to claim indigenous status for anything is if it occurred within the same political unit at the time it happened. Not centuries later. Germans can not claim Zola and Voltaire as indigenous, even though they share some level of common culture with France; less so with Poles and Greeks. Going forward, one could arguably call future artifacts indigenous to the EU, but you can't apply this label retroactively to previous centuries.

By that logic, the claim that Vedic influences were wholly indigenous makes no sense when viewed from a East/South Indian perspective, since the IVC was not a part of a common political entity until several centuries later. These were foreign influences absorbed into their own culture over time, just as Islamic influence was absorbed. Now one can claim that Islamic influences came on the back of a military conquest, but there were military conquests within the subcontinent throughout history. When kingdoms ruled over each other, it is unrealistic to expect that there was no cultural transfer.

My aim is not to discredit Indian claims on the IVC or Vedic culture, since cultural India is a shared heritage between us all, but only to draw a parallel between the spread of Vedic and Islamic influences from a political point of view.
 
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Sorry, that argument of Pakistan being the eternal victim doesn't wash, here as in most other cases.

First, the Dominion of India was the successor state to the colony of India. There was no need to 'select' the name India, it was already present. It was a presence in international meetings and conferences and it was a name by which India had already identified herself as a modern political entity.

Second, the name that India called herself within India as Indians was introduced into the constitution; India happens to be officially Bharat as well. I don't see why we should not have retained both the commonly recognised foreigners' version as well as the indigenous version; a great many countries do so. Switzerland, for instance, Hungary for another, and we could go on. Even if we were a minority of one, I don't see why, having declared herself peculiarly singular, Pakistan should wish to cancel and put on the shelf the name that she had as a part of a greater whole earlier. Partition is what Pakistan's leaders chose, eyes wide open. What right did that confer on her with regard to what the original and successor domain sought to name herself?

Nope, maybe you forget history but Western history says there were two successor states to the former British India, the Dominion of Pakistan and the Dominion of India. Did I say you guys had no right to name yourselves Indian?? Please highlight where I specifically said you guys had no right I merely asked a rhetorical question. However I did say what was the purpose for the naming as such when most people thought you were going to name yourselves Bharat or Hindustan. Did Jinnah not assume the same, why would he do so if there was not a possibility?? Why was he opposed when Nehru chose India, it was not the name itself but insinuation behind the name that irked Jinnah.
 
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No one is claiming that India was always politically united.

But that, as I explained above, is the crux of the matter. How do you claim something as indigenous if there was no political unity, and only a lowest common denominator at a cultural level. By what stretch of the imagination is the IVC indigenous to an Assamese or a Keralite?

Once you accept that these influences were, indeed, foreign at the time of introduction, then it becomes problematic to exclude Islam as a legitimate member of Indian culture.
 
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Why do you think so? Are you led to this conclusion by data, and would you mind sharing it with the forum at large? Or is it surmise, and if so, what is that surmise based on?

Below is a Chart of India's share of the GDP with respect to the world over the last 2000 years (dont know how accurate it is).

Screen%20Shot%202012-06-20%20at%209.37.55%20AM.png


I believe India started to go downhill economically when Aurangzeb bankrupted the nation with his rather bloody and foolish conquest of Deccan.

Source:
The Economic History of the Last 2,000 Years in 1 Little Graph - Derek Thompson - The Atlantic
 
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This, again, is a self-concocted story that Pakistanis use to beat their breasts and make a song and dance about. India started by being the country of the Indus, and the name was extended to the greater cultural mass as early as Megasthenes, the ambassador of Seleukos to the court of the Mauryas. This was still before Christ. Why you cling to the delusion that the name India referred to the thin strip of land around the Indus, and feel aggrieved is a matter between you and a psychiatrist of your own choice.

When the Greeks, Romans, Persians, and Arabs used the word India they never referred to any people east of the Indus. Even their conquests never went East of this river so by what basis do you assume they were referring to any people other than the one of this river. Before you said the people of the subcontinent never referred to themselves as India, you admitted it in an earlier post and now you are contradicting your own post by trying to claim the Mauryas did so. You said this not me in post 367 so then if that is the case why do you object when Pakistanis say the same thing??
 
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But that, as I explained above, is the crux of the matter. How do you claim something as indigenous if there was no political unity, and only a lowest common denominator at a cultural level. By what stretch of the imagination is the IVC indigenous to an Assamese or a Keralite?

It depends on to what extent the IVC was Vedic. The Vedic settlements on the banks of the Saraswati were certainly contemporaries of the IVC.

I am prepared to believe that as the Vedic peoples expanded westwards, there was a certain degree of cultural mingling. Thus the IVC may have had Vedic influences as well as Elamite influences. The units of measurement used in the buildings do suggest a Vedic influence.

The Vedas are studied and chanted in Assam and Kerala even today (maybe more in Kerala than Assam) - so it could be said that there is an indirect link. But it's not that we are excessively obsessed with the issue.
 
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