Turkish Naval Programs

[ANMDT]

Daha benim jeton yeni dustu.
Half-Life Modernization Project will bring second radar to Barboros class frigates. Its fvckng great.

Smart S plus MAR-D X band radar in one ship. They seem to be great air defence platform. What a pity those frigates need more serious SAM than ESSM. At least aster 30.
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Smart S will be moved onto first mast with EW and ES pod, at the back will be MAR-D .

There was already a second radar for sea zenith (sea guard) its being replaced with mar-d for gokdeniz.

Yes MLU will include MAR-D.

Weird how it isn't used on the I-Class but they included it for MLU of the Barbaros.

Both use ESSM. So why no MAR-D for I-Class?

Maybe it is necessary for Gökdeniz? But then again I-Class is gonna be equipped with Gökdeniz too.

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/Naval_3D_Search_Radar_1816.pdf

I class has been designed with phalanx, if its not sold to us they will switch to gokdeniz so for the latter case mar-d will be on I -class as well.

I stated since starting of barbaros mlu. This for deployment of long range sam . Looks like navy want a use barbaros claasses like stop gap light air defence frigate .

But there is one small problem on here; 16 vls isnt enough. Maybe we can add a 8-16x vls behalf of front ciws or side of aft vls . Or maybe siper is a doublepack missille

Front of the front ciws wouldnt be suitable, the main deck has already been cut through at several locations about that area and it would affect the strength adversly.
With which system they are going to detect-track targets from a distance guide long range SAM ensuring it intercept? Yes mar-d could do that with limited range but still wouldnt worth. If we have radar suites or missiles to establish such an air defence layer, navy would have ordered I class to be equipped with them instead of an expensive MLU for an aged ship, which will become out of the service after 15-18 years.
What is confusing is, after the mlu barbaros class is going to have essm, gokdeniz and phalanx for point defence and it doesnt seem normal to have three. That indicates the vls might be used for some other purposes in the future. Or as an extra layer of defence for tcg anadolu.
No need to dig in for complexities, we need ships, we are going to establish a flotilla soon and we definitely need ships that we even try to squeeze out the last juice from burak class.

Gokdeniz also has own STIR..
AFAIK X band radar signals very tight for point defence however it means Smart S band isnot as efficient as X band??
I really wonder if Smart S could work with SM2.

looks like in mlu, gokdeniz will use mar-d as search radar. In aselsan's product sheet it is also said that gokdeniz has optional search radar. And in images of mlu it doesnt seem as there is a search radar appended on gokdeniz.
Until now we have seen gokdeniz with radar attached onto, since it was being tested independently.

16 cells arent enough?? Poor Australia
Anzac class ( Meko 200) as same as Barbaros class.

Would take a week at most, to fit another Mk41 in there. There are 2 slots for 2 of 8 cell vls, they are just not using the slot on the port side.

Anyway, my hopes for my avatar are increasing i will dream about Gabyas and SM2s also.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelaide-class_frigate

Gabya class ships are really old, yet one of the most reliable (in terms of structural strength-durability and self defence) and the most inefficient (in terms of comfort for the officers and accessibility). I dont think they would pour more money on them, if we could get sm-2 and radars to guide them we could slightly modify I-class and build brand new AAW ships with 32 cells of vls. (Ie. reducing SSM to 8 and giving up on firing land attack cruise missiles, installing 16 more vls about midst of the ship).

 

[UkroTurk]

There was already a second radar for sea zenith (sea guard) its being replaced with mar-d for gokdeniz.

I class has been designed with phalanx, if its not sold to us they will switch to gokdeniz so for the latter case mar-d will be on I -class as well

Front of the front ciws wouldnt be suitable, the main deck has already been cut through at several locations about that area and it would affect the strength adversly.
With which system they are going to detect-track targets from a distance guide long range SAM ensuring it intercept? Yes mar-d could do that with limited range but still wouldnt worth. If we have suites or missiles to establish such defence layer navy would have been ordered I class to be equipped with them instead of an expensive MLU for an aged ship, which will become out of the service after 15-18 years.
No need to dig in for complexities, we need ships, we are going to establish a flotilla soon and we definitely need ships that we even try to squeeze out the last juice from burak class.

looks like in mlu, gokdeniz will use mar-d as search radar. In aselsan's product sheet it is also said gokdeniz comes in with an optional search radar. And in images of mlu it doesnt seem as there is a search radar for gokdeniz.
Until now we have seen gokdeniz with radar attached onto, since it was being tested independently.


Would take a week at most, to fit another Mk41 in there. There are 2 slots for 2 of 8 cell vls, they are just not using the slot on the port side.


Gabya class ships are really old, yet one of the most reliable (in terms of structural strength-durability and seqlf defence) and the most inefficient (in terms of comfort for the officers and accessibility). I dont think they would pour more money on them, if we could get sm-2 and radars to guide them we could slightly modify I-class and build brand new AAW ships with 32 cells of vls. (Ie reduing SSM to 8 and giving up on firing land attact cruise missiles, installing 16 more vls about midst of the ship).

https://www.ssb.gov.tr/Website/contentList.aspx?PageID=2372&LangID=1

Do you agree with this image?

 

[The Ronin]

16 vls isnt enough.

64 SAM aren't enough?!

What a pity those frigates need more serious SAM than ESSM. At least aster 30.

What's wrong with ESSM?

 

[ANMDT]

https://www.ssb.gov.tr/Website/contentList.aspx?PageID=2372&LangID=1

Do you agree with this image?

I agree with that, before mlu there is also another search radar dedicated for sea zeniths and mar-d is taking place of it.

 

[UkroTurk]

I agree with that, before mlu there is also another search radar dedicated for sea zeniths and mar-d is taking place of it.

There are a lot of additional things. Construction has been changed.

 

[ANMDT]

There are a lot of additional things. Construction has been changed.

No worries,i know what else has been changed else than what is shown to eyes in that image.

 

[UkroTurk]

64 SAM aren't enough?!



What's wrong with ESSM?

My argument was ESSM doesn't give area defence as SM2. I would say ESSM with limited range for point defence.

You could get 64 cells with quad pack option. I don't think TN purchased quad pack.

Gabya class ships are really old, yet one of the most reliable (in terms of structural strength-durability and self defence) and the most inefficient (in terms of comfort for the officers and accessibility). I dont think they would pour more money on them, if we could get sm-2 and radars to guide them we could slightly modify I-class .

Which radar for SM2 did you mean? Which radar opportunities are there for old SM2?
Turkish navy has all radars and equipments from Gabya class.
Here is the frigate can launch SM-2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Newcastle_(FFG_06)

Gabya class had AN/SPS49 radar and mark92 fire control system. Turkish navy mustn't have destroyed them. So Gabya class frigates need missiles, software and some little equipments for running SM2s.

 

[ANMDT]

My argument was ESSM doesn't give area defence as SM2. I would say ESSM with limited range for point defence.

You could get 64 cells with quad pack option. I don't think TN purchased quad pack.


Which radar for SM2 did you mean? Which radar opportunities are there for old SM2?

Replace it with modern equivalents for I-class. I have told 'even if we could get them for gabya class', probably we wont.
I wrote that assuming mk13 has been removed or has been inactive(mistaken for other ships) looks like it is still being used with sm1.
Note: I told those those refering to advanced versions of sm2.

My argument was ESSM doesn't give area defence as SM2. I would say ESSM with limited range for point defence.

You could get 64 cells with quad pack option. I don't think TN purchased quad pack.


Which radar for SM2 did you mean? Which radar opportunities are there for old SM2?
Turkish navy has all radars and equipments from Gabya class.
Here is the frigate can launch SM-2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Newcastle_(FFG_06)

Gabya class had AN/SPS49 radar and mark92 fire control system. Turkish navy mustn't have destroyed them. So Gabya class frigates need missiles, software and some little equipments for running SM2s.

Check it again, those radars have been replaced with smart-s.
https://turkishnavy.net/gabya-o-h-perry-class/
This link must have been shared one page before, now smart-s takes the place of AN SPS-49.

 

[UkroTurk]

Replace it with modern equivalents for I-class. I have told 'even if we could get them for gabya class', probably we wont.
I wrote that assuming mk13 has been removed or has been inactive(mistaken for other ships) looks like it is still being used with sm1.
Note: I told those those refering to advanced versions of sm2.


Check it again, those radars have been replaced with smart-s.

Replace it with modern equivalents for I-class. I have told 'even if we could get them for gabya class', probably we wont.
I wrote that assuming mk13 has been removed or has been inactive(mistaken for other ships) looks like it is still being used with sm1.
Note: I told those those refering to advanced versions of sm2.


Check it again, those radars have been replaced with smart-s.

Yes they replaced but Turkish navy must be keeping them .
Upgrading Gabya class with early genSM2 Gabya class is still theoretically possible. If US sold , upgrades would be cheaper than buying Aster30.

Australian Navy upgraded their perry class frigates with sm2 for xxxxxx(edit: inaccurate info)usd. One Aster 30 system costs 500million EUR.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...e-class-guided-missile-frigates-to-chile.html

https://www.navy.gov.au/weapon/sm-2-standard-missile

https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/20...avy-fires-first-upgraded-SM-2/14971261670400/

 

[ANMDT]

Yes they replaced but Turkish navy must be keeping them .
Upgrading Gabya class with early genSM2 Gabya class is still theoretically possible. If US sold , upgrades would be cheaper than buying Aster30.

Australian Navy upgraded their perry class frigates with sm2 for xxxxxx(edit: inaccurate info)usd. One Aster 30 system costs 500million EUR.
https://www.navy.gov.au/weapon/sm-2-standard-missile

We have upgraded the ship with genesis, so i am unsure if US will let us for integration of the radar ( or even if it could be integrated).
Also, in terms of prices we are comparing a missile (probably old versions of sm2) guided by decades old radar to almost an aegis equivalent suite with aster 30.
Our current situation in terms of aerial defence in navy is pathetic enough (relying on gabya and sm1), no need to make it more pathetic by trying to upgrade it to standards australia has put out of the service. Instead, by speeding up the progress of TF-2000 we could have something handy in 6-7 years.
If somehow they upgrade gabya, our government may start to think " anyway we have got something to keep awhile, lets stall tf-2000 awhile and reroute the budget onto something else"

 

[UkroTurk]

We have upgraded the ship with genesis, so i am unsure if US will let us for integration of the radar ( or even if it could be integrated).
Also, in terms of prices we are comparing a missile (probably old versions of sm2) guided by decades old radar to almost an aegis equivalent suite with aster 30.
Our current situation in terms of aerial defence in navy is pathetic enough (relying on gabya and sm1), no need to make it more pathetic by trying to upgrade it to standards australia has put out of the service. Instead, by speeding up the progress of TF-2000 we could have something handy in 6-7 years.
If somehow they upgrade gabya, our government may start to think " anyway we have got something to keep awhile, lets stall tf-2000 awhile and reroute the budget onto something else"

Dear , you seem to know our government and navy very well.

Please go and buy these 2 ships with sm2!
RAN is to sell two Perry class to Chile. At least we could swap our 2 gabya with Smart-s for Adelaida class with sm2!

Turkish Navy could upgrade them with Gokdeniz and new x band radar.
https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...e-class-guided-missile-frigates-to-chile.html

Wont you wish a girlfriend hot like she?

Purchasing these is shorcut to area defence and avoiding US

 

[SİLAHDAR]

Yes 16 vls isnt enough for light air defence frigate. Just because 8 aster-30/ Siper + 32 essm/ g-40 isnt enough. Minimum it could be 16 aster-30/ Siper + 32 essm/ g-40 with extra +8 vls placement.

And also;

Mar-d isnt for Gökdeniz. You cannot be need 100+ km x band radar for that kind of systems. System uses for otonom operation 65-70 km ranged mobile searc radar from aselsan. But it can be operational ships own systems.

İt's very clear to see navy want a use a smart-s a s band horizontal search radar like smart-l and mar-d for track and engage air defence radar like empar who general radar combination used on europan aaw ships.

Yes navy could be turn i class to light air defence frigate but all four i class isnt be ready before than 2025-2026. And east-med very hot, tcg anadolu is ready in the 2021-2022 and Anadolu needs air cover.

 

[ANMDT]

Yes 16 vls isnt enough for light air defence frigate. Just because 8 aster-30/ Siper + 32 essm/ g-40 isnt enough. Minimum it could be 16 aster-30/ Siper + 32 essm/ g-40 with extra +8 vls placement.

And also;

Mar-d isnt for Gökdeniz. You cannot be need 100+ km x band radar for that kind of systems. System uses for otonom operation 65-70 km ranged mobile searc radar from aselsan. But it can be operational ships own systems.

İt's very clear to see navy want a use a smart-s a s band horizontal search radar like smart-l and mar-d for track and engage air defence radar like empar who general radar combination used on europan aaw ships.

Yes navy could be turn i class to light air defence frigate but all four i class isnt be ready before than 2025-2026. And east-med very hot, tcg anadolu is ready in the 2021-2022 and Anadolu needs air cover.

But you also must be aware gökdeniz was based on korkut which also relies on a 3-D search radar.
Check this part:
"The AWS-06 Dolphin 3D search radar, which is an integrated part of the Sea Guard CIWS System, will be replaced with Aselsan’s MAR-D radar. The Ku-Band TMK Tracking and Fire Control Radar will also be removed."
Apparently, sea zeniths has relied on a 3-D search radar. If you check pictures of gökdeniz ciws from the tests you will realize there is a search radar atach to that, on counter side of fire control radar:
https://www.aselsan.com.tr/GOKDENIZ_CloseIn_Weapon_System_1178.pdf
Check out MLU's gökdeniz and you will only see fire-control radar on that.
Moreover, TCG anadolu wont be ready by 2021, nearest possible is date is 2023 (maybe second half). They havent started testing procedures of the ship yet and only testing would take more than 1 year up to 2 years. Which means that ship wont be actively used or be in service until 2025-26. Navy needs time to learn how to play with that.
By 2027 ve might easily get one TF2000 commissioned.
I dont deny that barbaros MLU may have aerial defence missles apart from ESSM(having 3 diferent ciws does not leave any other option), but its unclear if smart-s can guide SM-2,or if we could integrate those within Genesis. Navy might have some plan and we might see that later. yet again mar-d with 100km-150km doesnt give much clue to us.

 

[SİLAHDAR]

But you also must be aware gökdeniz was based on korkut which also relies on a 3-D search radar.
Check this part:
"The AWS-06 Dolphin 3D search radar, which is an integrated part of the Sea Guard CIWS System, will be replaced with Aselsan’s MAR-D radar. The Ku-Band TMK Tracking and Fire Control Radar will also be removed."
Apparently, sea zeniths has relied on a 3-D search radar. If you check pictures of gökdeniz ciws from the tests you will realize there is a search radar atach to that, on counter side of fire control radar:
https://www.aselsan.com.tr/GOKDENIZ_CloseIn_Weapon_System_1178.pdf
Check out MLU's gökdeniz and you will only see fire-control radar on that.
Moreover, TCG anadolu wont be ready by 2021, nearest possible is date is 2023 (maybe second half). They havent started testing procedures of the ship yet and only testing would take more than 1 year up to 2 years. Which means that ship wont be actively used or be in service until 2025-26. Navy needs time to learn how to play with that.
By 2027 ve might easily get one TF2000 commissioned.
I dont deny that barbaros MLU may have aerial defence missles apart from ESSM(having 3 diferent ciws does not leave any other option), but its unclear if smart-s can guide SM-2,or if we could integrate those within Genesis. Navy might have some plan and we might see that later. yet again mar-d with 100km-150km doesnt give much clue to us.

You are wrong mate. We already changed aws-9 dolphin radar with smart-s mk2 radar. So ciws takes radar picture from smart-s mk2 and track and lock him with his own fire controo radars.

On the other hand Gökdeniz have two diffrent version. One of that uses fire control radar + mobile searc radar ranged 65-70 km that is not mar-d ranged 100+ km. That is a autonomus version. İf ship hits from radar system contiune the work. But that is expensive version.

There is another version here without mobile search radar Only with fire control system. That system uses ships main radar for target searc and seek and lock him with his own fire control radar.
https://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo/full?photo_id=502980650830

Just look st that photo Gökdeniz on barbaros mlu only have a fire control radar that is the mean this is a ship intagrated version. So how ciws uses smart-s mk2 before the mlu, Gökdeniz will uses smart-s mk2 after that mlu. As you know smart's already operates ram's on milgems.

İf wr accept your idea mar-d only for Gökdeniz and they have nothing missions without him. That radar cannot be mar-d he must be mobile search radar. Mar-d expensive for this job.

And last one sm-2 not and option for us. But maybe aster or siper. When the barbaros mlu's finished sipers already finish. So east med is warm of course navy want to use him on barbaros class of course. Time is very important just in three months nations are defeated in wars.

 

[ANMDT]

You are wrong mate. We already changed aws-9 dolphin radar with smart-s mk2 radar. So ciws takes radar picture from smart-s mk2 and track and lock him with his own fire controo radars.

On the other hand Gökdeniz have two diffrent version. One of that uses fire control radar + mobile searc radar ranged 65-70 km that is not mar-d ranged 100+ km. That is a autonomus version. İf ship hits from radar system contiune the work. But that is expensive version.

There is another version here without mobile search radar Only with fire control system. That system uses ships main radar for target searc and seek and lock him with his own fire control radar.
https://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo/full?photo_id=502980650830

Just look st that photo Gökdeniz on barbaros mlu only have a fire control radar that is the mean this is a ship intagrated version. So how ciws uses smart-s mk2 before the mlu, Gökdeniz will uses smart-s mk2 after that mlu. As you know smart's already operates ram's on milgems.

İf wr accept your idea mar-d only for Gökdeniz and they have nothing missions without him. That radar cannot be mar-d he must be mobile search radar. Mar-d expensive for this job.

And last one sm-2 not and option for us. But maybe aster or siper. When the barbaros mlu's finished sipers already finish. So east med is warm of course navy want to use him on barbaros class of course. Time is very important just in three months nations are defeated in wars.

Yes,i was mistaken dolphin has already been removed and replaced with smart-s, and it became confusing since they have switched masts in mlu, so literally in new form, mar-d would be in place of dolphin and smart-s moved to the fore mast.
In here they explain possible use of second radar with details;
http://www.trmilitary.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1697&start=400
gökdeniz can use smart-s or mar-d, this was my point. there are 3 ciws on this ship and 1 radar wouldn't have been enough for the scenarios it has been prepared.
siper? yet the missile the national vls wont be ready until second I-class, means all barbaros upgrades would have been completed by then.
aster? could be, but that also means replacement of the vls, and it is not mentioned in anywhere neither in the upgrade package.
As i have told before, if TN has options for better aerial defence, they would have applied it on I-class instead of barbaros class.