What's new

Turkish Naval Programs

I have some doubts. Can a AN/SPY-1 with a 410 km range track-engage a target in a 1500 km altitude(ICBM's midcourse phase altitude)? Can a radar look up that much?
@Transhumanist

No, it can't. Aegis can't engage ICBMs (which fly at around 1000km altitiude). The tests that transhumanist linked are against SRBM and IRBMs (and some of those tests were using radar tracking data from larger radars). An Aegis BMD ship can use radar tracking data from longer range radars in a limited way, but the SPY-1 radar can't track a missile at 1500km altitude, no.
 
.
No, it can't. Aegis can't engage ICBMs (which fly at around 1000km altitiude). The tests that transhumanist linked are against SRBM and IRBMs (and some of those tests were using radar tracking data from larger radars). An Aegis BMD ship can use radar tracking data from longer range radars in a limited way, but the SPY-1 radar can't track a missile at 1500km altitude, no.

They, the AN/SPY-1 has the ability to track exo-atmospheric targets at very long ranges. Let's just put it that way. Their vertical scan range exceeds their lateral range, this is due partially to Earth's curvature, diagonal vertical distances being longer than horizontal distances over a curve. Even our AN/SPY-1F has a scan range in excess of its stated perimeters. Depending on the baseline, you can have scan ranges exceeding public info, each baseline offers not only software, but hardware upgrades as well. Each upgrade rectifies some fidelity problems with weak signal return from long-distance tracks.

Scan range is a function of "where" too. With higher altitudes yielding greater scan distances. Aegis Ashore, and its sea-based counterpart, will and do have the capacity to track and engage ultra-long range targets. Though as I've noted previously, in past posts, this is a system that works in conjunction with other sensors. No system relies on itself alone. They are networked.

Aegis can engage ICBMs once SM-3 Block IIA enters sea-based operational capability. At present with the shorter ranged SM-3 IA and IB, no it can not.

That doesn’t mean tying Aegis BMD ships down on coastal patrols, Cooper emphasized. “I have never bought into the idea that Aegis should be assigned a ‘picket ship’ role, which the Navy would rightly oppose,” he told me, “but the ships normally near our coasts have the inherent capability to shoot down ICBMs from Iran” — or a sneak attack from a ship offshore.

...

This aside and moving onto another aspect of this discussion, since SM-3 isn't using AN/SPY-1 alone and since this discussion is about Turkish SM-3 prospects, one other system that would be needed to work in concert with AN/SPY-1 is TPY-2, which has a scan range in excess of 1000km. This radar is better known for its role as part of THAAD:

Aegis-East-Coast-Cooper-Williams-July-29-2014-I.jpg


ABM_AN-TPY-2_Full_System_Raytheon_lg.jpg


The tests that transhumanist linked are against SRBM and IRBMs (and some of those tests were using radar tracking data from larger radars).

The tests include ICBMs, one of which is the Trident C4:

_RAC2581_09-MDA-4861%20(28%20AUG%2009).jpg


It is typically configured in an MRBM role, but features an extended range configuration as well.

No, it can't. Aegis can't engage ICBMs (which fly at around 1000km altitiude). The tests that transhumanist linked are against SRBM and IRBMs (and some of those tests were using radar tracking data from larger radars). An Aegis BMD ship can use radar tracking data from longer range radars in a limited way, but the SPY-1 radar can't track a missile at 1500km altitude, no.

One final thing, the PDF you linked to does note that Aegis can track ultra-long range target... e.i. ICBMs:

Cannot intercept ICBMs, but the system has a long-range search and track (LRS&T) capability—an ability to detect and track ballistic missiles at long ranges. In the FY2014 budget submission, the 5.1 version was described as having “some limited” capability against ICBMs.

Aegis BDM isn't THAAD, it's not GMD or SBX-1, it's SM-3 and AN/SPY-1.

They can track, they can engage, they can defeat ICBMs.
 
Last edited:
.
They, the AN/SPY-1 has the ability to track exo-atmospheric targets at very long ranges. Let's just put it that way. Their vertical scan range exceeds their lateral range, this is due partially to Earth's curvature, diagonal vertical distances being longer than horizontal distances over a curve. Even our AN/SPY-1F has a scan range in excess of its stated perimeters. Depending on the baseline, you can have scan ranges exceeding public info, each baseline offers not only software, but hardware upgrades as well. Each upgrade rectifies some fidelity problems with weak signal return from long-distance tracks.

Scan range is a function of "where" too. With higher altitudes yielding greater scan distances. Aegis Ashore, and its sea-based counterpart, will and do have the capacity to track and engage ultra-long range targets. Though as I've noted previously, in past posts, this is a system that works in conjunction with other sensors. No system relies on itself alone. They are networked.

Aegis can engage ICBMs once SM-3 Block IIA enters sea-based operational capability. At present with the shorter ranged SM-3 IA and IB, no it can not.

That doesn’t mean tying Aegis BMD ships down on coastal patrols, Cooper emphasized. “I have never bought into the idea that Aegis should be assigned a ‘picket ship’ role, which the Navy would rightly oppose,” he told me, “but the ships normally near our coasts have the inherent capability to shoot down ICBMs from Iran” — or a sneak attack from a ship offshore.

...

This aside and moving onto another aspect of this discussion, since SM-3 isn't using AN/SPY-1 alone and since this discussion is about Turkish SM-3 prospects, one other system that would be needed to work in concert with AN/SPY-1 is TPY-2, which has a scan range in excess of 1000km. This radar is better known for its role as part of THAAD:

Aegis-East-Coast-Cooper-Williams-July-29-2014-I.jpg


ABM_AN-TPY-2_Full_System_Raytheon_lg.jpg




The tests include ICBMs, one of which is the Trident C4:

_RAC2581_09-MDA-4861%20(28%20AUG%2009).jpg


It is typically configured in an MRBM role, but features an extended range configuration as well.

Even so, SRBMs and IRBMs have a very small radar cross-section, so 300-400km is a generous estimate of the SPY-1's actual tracking range for such a target.

With the bit where you quoted someone saying the ships have the inherent ability to shoot down ICBMs from Iran - I'm guessing they're referring to the fact that the missiles have the range to do it. That doesn't mean the Aegis ship alone can actually do it (it can't).
 
.
With the bit where you quoted someone saying the ships have the inherent ability to shoot down ICBMs from Iran - I'm guessing they're referring to the fact that the missiles have the range to do it. That doesn't mean the Aegis ship alone can actually do it (it can't).

They have missiles that can down ICBMs and sensors that can track them. Though, yes, that quote was supposed to be a validation of their counter-ICBM capabilities, not their ability to track a missile from across the globe. The PDF you offered notes limitations to their counter-ICBM capabilities, but the USN has different thoughts. Take a guess which I trust?

Again, looking to the PDF you linked, it noted that Aegis BMD cannot intercept ICBMs right now, it doesn't yet have the missiles to do so and the current BMD baseline is 4.01, which lacks counter-ICBM capacities. 5.1 and 5.2 are the baselines with provide this initial capability, albeit "limited". Military short hand for "we're not telling you until we have to".

The same PDF notes that Aegis BMD can track these types of missiles. Aegis BMD isn't THAAD and TPY-2, it's not GMD and SBX-1, it's SM-3 and AN/SPY-1. Considering the US Missile Defense Agency itself notes that, as does the PDF on Aegis BMD that you offered and the US navy, in the quote you needed clarification on... they all state that ICBMs can be tracked by Aegis BMD, I'm going to trust their validation of both SM-3 and AN/SPY-1.

Lockheed too notes that Aegis BMD and AN/SPY-1 can engage targets during all aspects of their flight time including mid-course phase, when the targets apogee is greatest.

...

It's 5:30 AM, I've got a busy day planned, if you'd like to continued this discussion era_shield, or if anyone else would like to or needs more clarification or technical data, please tag me (I don't have my account set to alert me to quotes) and I'll get back to you on Monday. Peace, and have a good rest of your weekend.

:wave:
 
.
@Transhumanist

The same PDF notes that Aegis BMD can track these types of missiles.

For ICBMs? If so, I can only find one place where it talks about this and it's very vague. It just says it has the ability to track "ballistic missiles" at "long ranges". Doesn't say how long the range is.

Aegis BMD isn't THAAD and TPY-2, it's not GMD and SBX-1, it's SM-3 and AN/SPY-1.

Aegis is a networked system and is designed to interoperate with other systems. The system has (or will soon have) launch-on-remote/engage-on-remote. It may be that to get it to intercept ICBMs will require external radars. Here for example you can see a coverage area scenario requiring TPY-2 support, and that's only for IRBMs.

Lockheed too notes that Aegis BMD and AN/SPY-1 can engage targets during all aspects of their flight time including mid-course phase, when the targets apogee is greatest.

It says it can do so for "ballistic missiles", which aren't necessarily ICBMs. However, it does also say it can provide "surveillance and tracking" of ICBMs, though it doesn't say at what stages. It also isn't clear if this includes search (search ranges are lower than tracking/surveillance ranges), otherwise the SPY-1 radar would need to be cued to an area where the target has already been detected by a larger radar.

This is the best specific info I can find about it: Ballistic Missile Defense: Estimating the Range of an Aegis Radar against a Missile Warhead Target (October 23, 2012) | mostlymissiledefense
 
.
it all seems futile to me... an ICBM isn't going to wait in the orbit for you, by the time you get your own missile into space it may be too late

I mean the ICBM you want to hit has a liquid fuel rocket and the interceptor you're launching has a liquid fuel rocket aswell there's no guarantee you can catch it with enough velocity to destroy it. And it's expensive too... I mean we don't exactly own a bunch of old ICBMs that we can convert into interceptor missiles.

Biggest ballistic missile we have is J600T and I don't think it could make it to space even if we removed it's warhead.

YAL-1 project seemed promising, if you can get that much power from an aircraft imagine how powerful the laser weapon on a nuclear powered ship can be. I would invest on something like that if I wanted ballistic missile protection

as for SM3, I don't think we need it. We need SM2s for obvious reasons which I no longer feel the need to explain.
 
.
AKYA Heavy Torpedo First Picture






Akya Heavyweight Turkish Torpedo

What you see above may be the first published photo of the Turkish heavyweight torpedo Akya. I have found it in an online publication of Turkish Navy.

I believe the photo was at the first test firing of torpedo on 11 July 2013. The test firing was done from a surface platform where a 533mm torpedo tube was installed. The photo appears to be taken before loading the Akya into the torpedo tube.

The torpedo has an elliptic cone nose similar to contemporary German torpedoes. It is difficult to see if ther eis one set of propeller or two counter turning propellers. But at least for the test device there is no housing around the propellers.

The development an indigenous heavyweight torpdeo is going on for 5 years. In 2010 a contract was signed between Turkish Naval Research Center Command (ARMERKOM), Tübitak, Roketsan and Undersecretariat for Defense Industries for developing and prototyping of a heavy weight torpedo. The value of the contract was 24 million euros.

ARMERKOM has the lead in designing the 533mm torpedo named Akya, after a local fish. Tübitak is developing the sonar where as Roketsan is working on the warhead and guidance.

Akya Heavyweight Turkish Torpedo |


Akya Propeller

4aec18de8d37ccbe7e21cf7cb68e17bb-jpg.142696
 
. .
SSM official Naval ship construction roadway

War Group
-Istanbul Class Frigate - 4
-TF-2000 class AAW frigate - 4
-Conceptual design of Milden submarine- Underway
-Turkish Type Fast Attack Craft Construction - 4 + 6 (Q1 and Q2 of 2016)
-Fast Patrol Boat Construction - 8 (Nov 2015)
-600t class Coast Guard Vessel - 8

Amphibious&Auxiliary&Support Group
-New Type LCT construction
-LCAC construction - 4
-Replenishment Tanker Design/construction-1
-Search & Resque Boat Construction-20+24 option (end of 2015)
-Hydrographical Research Vessel Construction-2
-Floating dry dock Construction-1
-SAT boat construction-2 (Oct 2015)
-Diver Training boat construction - 2 (Sep 2015)
-Mine Sweeper Construction
-Sail Training Vessel Construction

Tug Group
-Oceangoing Tug Construction
-Harbour Tug boat


Upgrade Group
-Preveze submarine midlife upgrade - 4
-Barbaros class midlife upgrade - 4 (before the end of 2015)
 
. . . .
SSM official Naval ship construction roadway

War Group
-Istanbul Class Frigate - 4
-TF-2000 class AAW frigate - 4
-Conceptual design of Milden submarine- Underway
-Turkish Type Fast Attack Craft Construction - 4 + 6 (Q1 and Q2 of 2016)
-Fast Patrol Boat Construction - 8 (Nov 2015)
-600t class Coast Guard Vessel - 8

Amphibious&Auxiliary&Support Group
-New Type LCT construction
-LCAC construction - 4
-Replenishment Tanker Design/construction-1
-Search & Resque Boat Construction-20+24 option (end of 2015)
-Hydrographical Research Vessel Construction-2
-Floating dry dock Construction-1
-SAT boat construction-2 (Oct 2015)
-Diver Training boat construction - 2 (Sep 2015)
-Mine Sweeper Construction
-Sail Training Vessel Construction

Tug Group
-Oceangoing Tug Construction
-Harbour Tug boat


Upgrade Group
-Preveze submarine midlife upgrade - 4
-Barbaros class midlife upgrade - 4 (before the end of 2015)


What kind upgrade our we talking about for the barbarros class, arent they upgraded with Smart Mk radar and Essm missiles? Are we upgrading with Aselsans systems?
 
. .
Akya Propeller

4aec18de8d37ccbe7e21cf7cb68e17bb-jpg.142696
counterrotating propellers are not such a good idea they add complexity cost and weight to the vessel. but its benefits are good in regards to it speed. may be they should look at a pump jet its stealthier and provides more powerful
jet pump.jpg
Pump-jet_on_NatchanWorld_02.JPG
 
.

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom