Turkish Manportable surface-to-air missile

[cabatli_53]

what about the speed of the missile? how much is it?

The domestic missile will have much bigger speed/longer range than Stinger because Although Aselsan developed a Stinger Weapon Platform for naval platforms called Bora to be used for close range self defence missions, Navy didn't order any cause of low speed/reaction time/low range of missile against coming missiles. We need something which have much bigger speed/longer range than Stinger missiles. BTW, Roketsan has all technologies of Stinger missiles and manufacturing thousands of those missiles for Turkey and ally countries as well.

What Turkey is going to design/develop will be an equivalent of French Mistral or Saab RBS-70 missiles. Both have found areas in World Navies as close range missile defence system. Stinger is designed in 1960's and already used for many Armies as proven missile system.

As a political tool, You know Stinger missiles changed the destiny of the wars in many areas but Transfering of such small but important missiles being in TSK inventory is prohibited by EUMA agreements so What Turkey needs is to have a domestic system which will be transfered to the groups like FSA in Syria, or directly exportation for ally countries without asking anybody.

If We had domestic manpads in our hands to be transfered for FSA, Syria will loose tens of helicopters/aircrafts within days as a payback of their desperate attempts against Turkish aircraft downed into the water.


In additions, Turkish industry started creating own SAM family similar with Anti-Tank missile groups.

-Close Range Manpad Air Defence Missile
-Low Altitude Missile called T-AIHSFS
-Medium Altitude Missile called T-OIHSFS

As a remind, The image of T-AIHSFS

 

[cabatli_53]

Since 1980s, TSK acquired more than 5000 Stinger missiles which was designed in 1960's by USA and manufactured by Roketsan. By 2020 there will be need replacement of older missiles with new generation one. So it is the question wheter you design your system, or buy directly?

I think in such condition, where more than 5000 missile can be prdouced, it is logical/feasible to develop domestic. Welldone SSM !!!

 

[Bismarck]

The domestic missile will have much bigger speed/longer range than Stinger because Although Aselsan developed a Stinger Weapon Platform for naval platforms called Bora to be used for close range self defence missions, Navy didn't order any cause of low speed/reaction time/low range of missile against coming missiles. We need something which have much bigger speed/longer range than Stinger missiles. BTW, Roketsan has all technologies of Stinger missiles and manufacturing thousands of those missiles for Turkey and ally countries as well.

What Turkey is going to design/develop will be an equivalent of French Mistral or Saab RBS-70 missiles. Both have found areas in World Navies as close range missile defence system. Stinger is designed in 1960's and already used for many Armies as proven missile system.

As a political tool, You know Stinger missiles changed the destiny of the wars in many areas but Transfering of such small but important missiles being in TSK inventory is prohibited by EUMA agreements so What Turkey needs is to have a domestic system which will be transfered to the groups like FSA in Syria, or directly exportation for ally countries without asking anybody.

If We had domestic manpads in our hands to be transfered for FSA, Syria will loose tens of helicopters/aircrafts within days as a payback of their desperate attempts against Turkish aircraft downed into the water.


In additions, Turkish industry started creating own SAM family similar with Anti-Tank missile groups.

-Close Range Manpad Air Defence Missile
-Low Altitude Missile called T-AIHSFS
-Medium Altitude Missile called T-OIHSFS

As a remind, The image of T-AIHSFS

First of all, thx for answer. You have any figures about range and spped? BTW, your T-AIHSFS looks like our Iris-T.

 

[LegionnairE]

@cabatli_53
Turkish Navy won't buy a mistral or RBS 70 equivalent either. What Turkish MANPADS needs to compete with is the RIM-116 for the navy to buy it. But for Land Forces' use you can't expect a soldier to carry an over seventy kilograms heavy RIM-116 equivalent so I think it's apples and pears. NOT gonna happen.

Roketsan has to keep it strictly about the Land Forces unless they can make two versions of the missile.
Because TN won't buy whatever they come up with, while there's a better alternative like RAM.
No MANPADS can match this:

 

[Ir.Tab.]

RIM-116 is too heavy for light missile boats which are under development by YONCA-ONUK or ARES SHIPYARD.

 

[LegionnairE]

RIM-116 is too heavy for light missile boats which are under development by YONCA-ONUK or ARES SHIPYARD.

There's no such thing as a "light missile boat" operated by Turkish navy and any of our fast attack craft can handle a Mk 49. The problem is my friend, the navy doesn't give that job to these vessels. Mk 49 doesn't pierce the ship to two decks below. If they want air or missile defence on these ships they can dismount their main guns and mount a RAM launcher instead. STAMPs and STOPs can take over the main gun's duty. Weight is not even an issue it's just 5 tonnes.

But turns out we don't need it in a battle maneuver FACs move with the fleet so they stay in the air defence umbrella of bigger ships.

I felt the need to make a reference from myself: http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey...missions-along-iran-border-6.html#post3784336

In major navies there's a division of labor between different classes of vessels, smalltime coastal navies like Israeli navy may try and assign every role to a single class for instance: Sa'ar 4.5 Class FAC
...it's miserable.

 

[Ir.Tab.]

There's no such thing as a "light missile boat" operated by Turkish navy and any of our fast attack craft can handle a Mk 49. The problem is my friend, the navy doesn't give that job to these vessels. Mk 49 doesn't pierce the ship to two decks below.

RIM166 must be integrated with the ship's combat system, which directs the launcher at targets. In my opinion KILIÇ CLASS seems to have the potential for RIM166 instead of rear gun. The weight of KILIÇ CLASS is near the weight of the Roussen class of helenic navy. Roussen class is the lightest ship I have found to use the RIM166 system.

Other fast craft classes will need comprehensive modifications to adopt RIM166. On the other hand RIM166 system with 21 missile is an expensive system not comparable with modern man-pads along with an all stand by it-self system like aselsan KMS. RIM166 cost makes it suitable for a ship in class of new littoral combat ships of US.

If they want air or missile defence on these ships they can dismount their main guns and mount a RAM launcher instead. STAMPs and STOPs can take over the main gun's duty. Weight is not even an issue it's just 5 tonnes.

In my opinion the main 70mm+ gun could not be replaced by those systems.

But turns out we don't need it in a battle maneuver FACs move with the fleet so they stay in the air defence umbrella of bigger ships.

It could not be a bad idea to have a cost efficient solution to defend the craft against enemy choppers, Drones, ... The fact is stinger missiles has a considerable service history. There is nothing bad in developing an advanced variant.

Some new developed missile boats have a reduced weight (less than 300 tons) and increased speed (30 knots+). Some examples are:

Hamina-class missile boat
Houbei-class missile boat
Skjold-class patrol boat

Even the new design by RMK has a displacement around 240 tons while it will be (in case of production) much more effective than current heavier fast crafts.

 

[LegionnairE]

RIM166 must be integrated with the ship's combat system, which directs the launcher at targets. In my opinion KILIÇ CLASS seems to have the potential for RIM166 instead of rear gun. The weight of KILIÇ CLASS is near the weight of the Roussen class of helenic navy. Roussen class is the lightest ship I have found to use the RIM166 system.

dear Ir. Tab, Kılıç class has a displacement over 400 tonnes and Mk41 weighs about 5 tonnes. Your argument was that a RAM launcher would be too heavy for Yonca Onuk and Ares shipyards' FAC designs and my opinion is the same. Weight doesn't matter, space does. And if the navy wants to replace the main gun with RAM it's not just possible it also opens space in the lower deck and the gap could be closed by mounting an Aselsan STOP above the bridge I won the argument and I'm just repeating myself

Other fast craft classes will need comprehensive modifications to adopt RIM166. On the other hand RIM166 system with 21 missile is an expensive system not comparable with modern man-pads along with an all stand by it-self system like aselsan KMS. RIM166 cost makes it suitable for a ship in class of new littoral combat ships of US.

Damn right it isn't comparable, it's much, much more advanced. BTW I don't really like the LCS, it's a freak design.

In my opinion the main 70mm+ gun could not be replaced by those systems.

Your opinion is noted

It could not be a bad idea to have a cost efficient solution to defend the craft against enemy choppers, Drones, ... The fact is stinger missiles has a considerable service history. There is nothing bad in developing an advanced variant.

Fact is, my friend, Stingers may have done revolutions for ground armies but they offer absolutely no use for open seas. In the best scenario a Seahawk fires the hellfire from 8 Kilometers away without entering the stinger's range and do considerable damage. Hellfire will leave it's place to JAGM and neither Stinger nor SA18 can offer any defence against it.

Even the new design by RMK has a displacement around 240 tons while it will be (in case of production) much more effective than current heavier fast crafts.

and your point being? 5 tonnes Mk41 too heavy for the 240 tonnes vessel? I don't think so.

 

[Ir.Tab.]

dear Ir. Tab, Kılıç class has a displacement over 400 tonnes and Mk41 weighs about 5 tonnes. Your argument was that a RAM launcher would be too heavy for Yonca Onuk and Ares shipyards' FAC designs and my opinion is the same. Weight doesn't matter, space does. And if the navy wants to replace the main gun with RAM it's not just possible it also opens space in the lower deck and the gap could be closed by mounting an Aselsan STOP above the bridge I won the argument and I'm just repeating myself

16 Tuzla class boats (new class patrol boats), commissioned from 2011 to ...
09 Kılıç class boats, commissioned 1998-2010.
02 Yildiz class boats, commissioned 1997
08 Dogan class boats, commissioned 1977-1988
08 Kartal class boats, commissioned 1977-1988

38 patrol boats. Equipping them with RIM166 is an extravagant solution. My suggestion is a modern man-pad based SAM system + a heavily modified Active Protection System like AKKOR to defend ship against incoming Hellfire, JAGM, or even more serious threats.

I am still against replacing 70mm+ gun with those systems. You know how lethal is 70mm+ against boats especially when it is directed by a radar!.

Fact is, my friend, Stingers may have done revolutions for ground armies but they offer absolutely no use for open seas. In the best scenario a Seahawk fires the hellfire from 8 Kilometers away without entering the stinger's range and do considerable damage. Hellfire will leave it's place to JAGM and neither Stinger nor SA18 can offer any defence against it.

I accept that man-pads may have some offshore limitation but there are some points to be noticed:
1- Mistral class amphibious assault ship is equipped with 2 x Simbad systems.
2- In case of using JAGM, the 10km range of RIM166 will be inadequate to hit first, too.

and your point being? 5 tonnes Mk41 too heavy for the 240 tonnes vessel? I don't think so.

Mostly the cost is a concern. but 5700kg+ (luncher)+ 21x73kg+ (missiles) + 300kg+ (cabinet+electronics) = 7500kg+ which is equal to a medium helicopter. should be checked on overall balance of a light ship.

 

[LegionnairE]

38 patrol boats. Equipping them with RIM166 is an extravagant solution. My suggestion is a modern man-pad based SAM system + a heavily modified Active Protection System like AKKOR to defend ship against incoming Hellfire, JAGM, or even more serious threats.

BUT a RIM166 can stop a HARPOON! though it's an interesting idea Tank hard-kill systems are fully automated so it creates almost no workload for the crew, i like it

I am still against replacing 70mm+ gun with those systems. You know how lethal is 70mm+ against boats especially when it is directed by a radar!.

I'm against it too, a naval gun is a much better defence than the poor old MANPADS I'm just saying it can be done in a heartbeat.

2- In case of using JAGM, the 10km range of RIM166 will be inadequate to hit first, too.

no problem RIM166 has a good chance of stopping the JAGM itself

Mostly the cost is a concern. but 5700kg+ (luncher)+ 21x73kg+ (missiles) + 300kg+ (cabinet+electronics) = 7500kg+ which is equal to a medium helicopter. should be checked on overall balance of a light ship.

If you can provide the space on the upper deck, weight is no problem, as i said mounting a Mk 41 is MUCH more easier than mounting a gun which penetrates the ship to two decks below.

 

[Ir.Tab.]

BUT a RIM166 can stop a HARPOON! though it's an interesting idea

That's why I call it "heavily modified". Not sure how much modified!

I'm against it too, a naval gun is a much better defence than the poor old MANPADS I'm just saying it can be done in a heartbeat.

We are talking about a new & modern man-pad! and man-pad is somewhere else, not to replace the main gun!

no problem RIM166 has a good chance of stopping the JAGM itself

And the cost of one rolling missile is 10 times of a JAGM!

By the way you missed a point!

1- Mistral class amphibious assault ship is equipped with 2 x Simbad systems.

 

[LegionnairE]

That's why I call it "heavily modified". Not sure how much modified!

No matter how heavily you modify it, it can't stop a harpoon or exocet, but they are small and simple enough to be applied to an even smaller boat like MRTP-15. You don't wanna waste a Harpoon for a small target like MRTP-15 so ATGMs are more likely threats I'm just saying your idea has merit.

We are talking about a new & modern man-pad! and man-pad is somewhere else, not to replace the main gun!

I'm saying, all naval guns are multi-role, they can engage air and surface targets alike. So as long as there's a functioning main gun, having a stinger equivalent is highly unnecessary.

And the cost of one rolling missile is 10 times of a JAGM!

in this case I don't give a sh.t Harpoon is a way more serious threat and it's more likely too

By the way you missed a point!

It's French navy so it doesn't count You couldn't give a worse example Everybody knows how badly I despise french. And not just that, Mistral is an LHD, it's job is to stage a landing operation so it works closer to coastline. It's very likely that they encounter gunships in close range. It's not the case for FACs, they don't participate in landing operations. So if the navy decides to mount Atılgan systems on the future LhD, they have my blessing
Meanwhile the US navy:

 

[Ir.Tab.]

No matter how heavily you modify it, it can't stop a harpoon or exocet, but they are small and simple enough to be applied to an even smaller boat like MRTP-15. You don't wanna waste a Harpoon for a small target like MRTP-15 so ATGMs are more likely threats I'm just saying your idea has merit.

Thanks. So how about this! a modified MRTP 22 with 2 anti-ship missiles + modified hard kill system. You don't wanna waste a Harpoon for it and it will kill small incoming threats automatically. Please let to arm it with an advanced man-pad. Maybe enemy fighter or chopper decides to attack by gun after missile attack failure!

I'm saying, all naval guns are multi-role, they can engage air and surface targets alike. So as long as there's a functioning main gun, having a stinger equivalent is highly unnecessary.

I am pretty sure an advanced guided man-pad is much more effective than guns against aerial vehicles.

in this case I don't give a sh.t Harpoon is a way more serious threat and it's more likely too

Do you think it is visible to equip 38 boats with RIM166.

It's French navy so it doesn't count You couldn't give a worse example Everybody knows how badly I despise french. Meanwhile the US navy

French navy is a blue water navy! And the picture, you provided, is for a Nimitz class missile boat!

Our discussion ended as:
RIM166 is too expensive for a patrol boat.
You say equipping them with an advanced man-pad makes no sense! and I am not sure about this.

I have to say I am going to sleep now. Good night.

 

[LegionnairE]

Thanks. So how about this! a modified MRTP 22 with 2 anti-ship missiles + modified hard kill system. You don't wanna waste a Harpoon for it and it will kill small incoming threats automatically. Please let to arm it with an advanced man-pad. Maybe enemy fighter or chopper decides to attack by gun after missile attack failure!

Eheheh, you don't understand do you? you don't wanna waste a harpoon for an MRTP 15 because it's NOT a threat for a warship it's just an LMM armed transport
http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/221948-mrtp-15-attack-boat-design.html

MRTP 22 doesn't support an anti-ship missile and MRTP 33s are way more different Atılgan or AKKOR doesn't do any good for them, it's a Mk 41 or nothing. Because no matter how small they are, the deterrent is humongous

Do you think it is visible to equip 38 boats with RIM166.

Nope, most of those 38 FACs have already passed their mid-life so a Sea Zenith for each Kılıç and Kılıç II class would be the most I'd pay for.

French navy is a blue water navy! And the picture, you provided, is for a Nimitz class missile boat!

Blue water navy my ***... a blue sea navy doesn't arm it's vessels with mistrals. You think it's because Nimitz is an AC and Mistral is an LHD, think again. Both Wasp class and America class have twin Mk41 RAM launchers.

I am pretty sure an advanced guided man-pad is much more effective than guns against aerial vehicles.

This is the problem with you even the Bofors 57mm naval gun has twice the range of stinger. Higher caliber naval guns have even more range. a MANPADS system is a piece of **** compared to the main gun of any FAC.
This, is an efficient solution to provide air defense for moving tank columns.

This, is nothing but a bad idea. Total garbage:

 

[Ir.Tab.]

Mk 41 or nothing.

man-pads are common on all navies. Even Stinger man-pads is deployed on US navy ships, operated by personnel along with other systems. they should have their reason to have those on their arsenal.

Blue water navy my ***...

Huge displacement should it be!

even the Bofors 57mm naval gun has twice the range of stinger. Higher caliber naval guns have even more range. a MANPADS system is a piece of **** compared to the main gun of any FAC.

No, it is not. Range is not the only aspect an anti aerial system should have. If main gun is sufficient why the closer range combat systems like Phalanx CIWS? A man-pad missile is a guided one which follows the target after being fired.

This, is nothing but a bad idea. Total garbage:

It depends:
1- the Aselsan targeting system to how extend will improves the performance
2- the new generation missiles to how extend will be more effective than stinger.
3- integration with naval radars as initial readiness.

A decent targeting system plus a modern missile technology could be effective even against a 864 km/h harpoon missile. All in all, far more better than nothing. In fact RIM166 missile is not a very complicated missile, too.