Turkish Land Vehicle Programs

[LegionnairE]

even TB2 is expendable , no surprise to shot down most of them.

I predicted it in the first bloody day and people got mad at me lol.

this "drones will save the day, other things don't matter" perception is very fucking wrong.


Like Russia is pulling T55s from reserve, we would be desperately rushing to the front with M48s now.

We should be glad we're not at war.

 

[merzifonlu]

I have yet to see the powerpack in production on firtina, so i don't know how mass production will be and if there won't be any hiccups. besides the performance for the tank is a bit harder to achieve, you can get away with a substandard engine on a Howitzer, its much harder on a tank.

It doesn't make sense to me to be honest. unless Turkey has some magical engineers that South Korea doesn't have, idk how Turkey would beat the Koreans to mass production of the transmission. Just this year the Koreans fixed their transmission problem. And the SNT Transmission is supposed to go into production next year for Korea, and some people still saying that its not as good as RENK, that Korea lowered the criteria to pass the transmission. And I'm supposed to just assume the Turkish transmission would have been finished and in mass production before Korea?

Production of Fırtına-2s continues without the power pack. It is expected that the tests of BMC's 1000 HP UTKU Power Package installed on the vehicle will be completed in 2024 and mass production will begin in 2025, because it has successfully passed all tests so far.

Türkiye can find at least as many quality engine engineers as S. Korea. Because, 1) Turkiye can employ engineers of Turkish origin who came out of the settled Turkish community in Germany and were trained in Germany. So actually they are Germany's engineers! 2) As Europe is rapidly switching to electric vehicles, experienced European engine and transmission engineers specialized in Diesel Power Packages are rapidly becoming unemployed. If you promise them a generous income that will guarantee their retirement, they will come running. Due to these two factors, Türkiye does not have difficulty finding competent engineers.

Mass production and prototype production are very different issues. However, I do not think that Turkiye will have problems in mass production. Because we are now in a position to put diesel engines used in domestic UAV's and transmissions used in Gökbey helicopters into mass production. In other words, most of the infrastructure required for mass production has already been created.

And last note, I did not say that Türkiye will produce a transmission before Korea. What I'm saying is this: At the very beginning of the Altay project, the condition should have been that the power package would be domestic. If this had been done, tanks operating with domestic power packages would have been in production by now.

We now know that this is doable and possible due to the pace of progress on BMC Power's domestic power pack project. However, when the project was first announced, there were doubts about it and a foreign power package condition was imposed. Everyone knows what happened next.

 

[LegionnairE]

And last note, I did not say that Türkiye will produce a transmission before Korea. What I'm saying is this: At the very beginning of the Altay project, the condition should have been that the power package would be domestic. If this had been done, tanks operating with domestic power packages would have been in production by now.

We now know that this is doable and possible due to the pace of progress on BMC Power's domestic power pack project. However, when the project was first announced, there were doubts about it and a foreign power package condition was imposed. Everyone knows what happened next.

Otokar could've simply scaled up the F-Max's engine and repackaged it into a power pack in a couple of years I think.

They made the ARMA II with domestic engine without anyone even hearing about it.

We have to remember, the original development of Altay was completed ahead of schedule imagine... Altay... ahead of schedule

 

[merzifonlu]

Otokar could've simply scaled up the F-Max's engine and repackaged it into a power pack in a couple of years I think.

They made the ARMA II with domestic engine without anyone even hearing about it.

We have to remember, the original development of Altay was completed ahead of schedule imagine... Altay... ahead of schedule

Well, Koç Group stayed away from the domestic military engine and transmission development project from the very beginning! The situation in Arma-II occurred as a result of the imposition of the SSB. If it were not for the SSB imposition, Koç Group would continue to use the foreign power package.

If, a) the Altay Project had required a domestic power pack and b) if the Koç Group had agreed to derive it from the power pack in the F-Max truck, perhaps the Altay would not have been a 70-ton heavy class tank, instead it would have been a 55-60 ton "medium-heavy" tank with an automatic loader. But at least we would have a modern tank in our inventory now that war/wars is on our doorstep.

 

[LegionnairE]

Well, Koç Group stayed away from the domestic military engine and transmission development project from the very beginning! The situation in Arma-II occurred as a result of the imposition of the SSB. If it were not for the SSB imposition, Koç Group would continue to use the foreign power package.

If, a) the Altay Project had required a domestic power pack and b) if the Koç Group had agreed to derive it from the power pack in the F-Max truck, perhaps the Altay would not have been a 70-ton heavy class tank, instead it would have been a 55-60 ton "medium-heavy" tank with an automatic loader. But at least we would have a modern tank in our inventory now that war/wars is on our doorstep.

1) Why shouldn't they? Turkish government doesn't buy their products, and they are focused on exporting to countries that aren't sanctioned by the US.

Personally I like Cummins engines a lot

2) They could make the Altay in any weight class Turkish army wanted. Challenger 2 was the heaviest tank in NATO back then, and only had a 1200hp engine

F-Max's EcoTorq motor already makes 500hp and 2500Nm torque with a 12 liter engine, it's almost the same horsepower per liter as MTU, scaled up and tweaked a little, you could basically get the same performance


And lets consider that Otokar engineers were unable to get the 1500hp, I would much rather have this tank with 1250hp engine in 2016 than to wait until 2026

Army Guide

Army Guide - information about the main battle tanks, armoured vehicles and armament of the land forces and also the information concerning other army subjects - Altay AHT, Main battle tank, Armoured Vehicles

www.army-guide.com

We would have 1.000 Altay tanks by now and we would be considering retiring the M60Ts

 

[merzifonlu]

1) Why shouldn't they? Turkish government doesn't buy their products, and they are focused on exporting to countries that aren't sanctioned by the US.

When the project started, AKP did not have any problems with Koç Group. Despite this, the people running the Koç Group were not at all interested in developing the domestic military engine and its transmission. They weren't even interested in the 500 HP one. However, they could have developed this even with the company's equity capital. I am angry this reason.

 

[LegionnairE]

This was a very good project too, why do we hear nothing from it? We have a lot of M60, M48 and Leopard 1 tanks that could benefit from KMZ upgrade yet, nothing is happening.

Same thing that happened to Leopard 2 NG is happening to it

I think the land forces command is just very fucking slow and stupid when it comes to modernization. The navy is modernizing like crazy. The army, lots of options but nothing is happening. I am very frustrated with this.

 

[LegionnairE]

When the project started, AKP did not have any problems with Koç Group. Despite this, the people running the Koç Group were not at all interested in developing the domestic military engine and its transmission. They weren't even interested in the 500 HP one. However, they could have developed this even with the company's equity capital. I am angry this reason.

Wait, you know they've been making engines for years right? Ford Cargo's engine was made by Otosan from design to production completely %100 inhouse.

 

[hyperman]

Türkiye can find at least as many quality engine engineers as S. Korea. Because, 1) Turkiye can employ engineers of Turkish origin who came out of the settled Turkish community in Germany and were trained in Germany. So actually they are Germany's engineers! 2) As Europe is rapidly switching to electric vehicles, experienced European engine and transmission engineers specialized in Diesel Power Packages are rapidly becoming unemployed. If you promise them a generous income that will guarantee their retirement, they will come running. Due to these two factors, Türkiye does not have difficulty finding competent engineers.

Aren't there significant restrictions on defense sector workers going to work for other countries, I know for the US there are significant restrictions if you try to take a position in a foreign country, even an allied country, not sure about the german laws, but they might have something similar. Plus these defense companies guard their trade secrets and intellectual property like hawks, would MTU and RENK really allow a dual citizen access to proprietary tech and would they really allow defections of engineers to other countries? Defense sector is always going to be valued for production, they might do EVs but Tank and military vehicles for the most part will always be ICE for the foreseeable future. Also its not like the Koreans couldn't hire similar engineers, i can't imagine there being stricter restrictions on South Korea than Turkey, yet we still saw South Korea struggling with the transmission, the engine they did fine, the transmission seems to be something they struggled with.

However, when the project was first announced, there were doubts about it and a foreign power package condition was imposed. Everyone knows what happened next.

I thought the plan was for the first mass production batch to be with German powerpack then eventually down the road increase indigenization? Or did you mean that they should have started with a Turkish powerpack for the very beginning, and no German powerpack, b/c there are downsides and risks to this development strategy as well, just like there are risks with the "Ship of Theseus" type strategy. For example look at the delays/failure of the Tejas project b/c of the struggles to develop an engine, they only got the project back on track after decoupling the engine from the rest of the platform. TB2 was the same way, its rapid production was based on off the shelf purchases of the camera, and engine, which they eventually replaced with domestic alternatives.

 

[Oublious]

Equipments of the Land Forces...

 

[merzifonlu]

Aren't there significant restrictions on defense sector workers going to work for other countries, I know for the US there are significant restrictions if you try to take a position in a foreign country, even an allied country, not sure about the german laws, but they might have something similar. Plus these defense companies guard their trade secrets and intellectual property like hawks, would MTU and RENK really allow a dual citizen access to proprietary tech and would they really allow defections of engineers to other countries? Defense sector is always going to be valued for production, they might do EVs but Tank and military vehicles for the most part will always be ICE for the foreseeable future. Also its not like the Koreans couldn't hire similar engineers, i can't imagine there being stricter restrictions on South Korea than Turkey, yet we still saw South Korea struggling with the transmission, the engine they did fine, the transmission seems to be something they struggled with.



I thought the plan was for the first mass production batch to be with German powerpack then eventually down the road increase indigenization? Or did you mean that they should have started with a Turkish powerpack for the very beginning, and no German powerpack, b/c there are downsides and risks to this development strategy as well, just like there are risks with the "Ship of Theseus" type strategy. For example look at the delays/failure of the Tejas project b/c of the struggles to develop an engine, they only got the project back on track after decoupling the engine from the rest of the platform. TB2 was the same way, its rapid production was based on off the shelf purchases of the camera, and engine, which they eventually replaced with domestic alternatives.

First of all, we Turks are not completely destitute of technological infrastructure and technical knowledge, neither regarding engines nor transmissions. On the contrary, we developed and mass produce the PD-xxx series diesel aviation engines used in UAVs and the transmission of the Gökbey helicopter. Since these equipment are used in aviation, they require serious technology. We hardly need access to the technical secrets of RENK and MTU. Secondly, blocking the supply of technical staff is not that simple. We only use foreigners as consultants. We do not employ foreigners full time on the project. The man doesn't know what he is advising on. Europeans also hire Aselsan's experienced electronic engineers for their civilian projects. In short, it's a kind of gentlemen's agreement.

Need to explain the Korean incident. There, the Koreans trusted the Germans too much, from whom they received technical support, as if they were completely naive! It turned out that the fault was caused by an incorrectly designed bolt. They are currently about to develop a working transmission, perhaps they have already developed one.

Yes, the first plan was to use the foreign power package and develop the domestic power package over time. But now we realized that this was not necessary. We could very well design and produce the domestic power package from scratch.

 

[LegionnairE]

Equipments of the Land Forces...

nice video,

I am ashamed that, after everything that happened in Syria, all the people who lost their lives, there's still no Leopard 2 Modernization.

"ASELSAN Leopard 2NG upgrade is too expensive"

I hate these people with every fiber of my being.

There's still no Tulpar, no Kaplan, Our best IFV is still ACV-15, our best 8x8 APC is still BTR-80

Varlık içinde yokluk çekiyoruz, emeği geçen herkesin allah belasını versin.
Piyadeyi, tankçıyı önden gidip allah allah diye saldırıp ölecek adam gözüyle gören zihniyete lanet olsun.

 

[LegionnairE]

First of all, we Turks are not completely destitute of technological infrastructure and technical knowledge, neither regarding engines nor transmissions. On the contrary, we developed and mass produce the PD-xxx series diesel aviation engines used in UAVs and the transmission of the Gökbey helicopter. Since these equipment are used in aviation, they require serious technology. We hardly need access to the technical secrets of RENK and MTU. Secondly, blocking the supply of technical staff is not that simple. We only use foreigners as consultants. We do not employ foreigners full time on the project. The man doesn't know what he is advising on. Europeans also hire Aselsan's experienced electronic engineers for their civilian projects. In short, it's a kind of gentlemen's agreement.

Need to explain the Korean incident. There, the Koreans trusted the Germans too much, from whom they received technical support, as if they were completely naive! It turned out that the fault was caused by an incorrectly designed bolt. They are currently about to develop a working transmission, perhaps they have already developed one.

Yes, the first plan was to use the foreign power package and develop the domestic power package over time. But now we realized that this was not necessary. We could very well design and produce the domestic power package from scratch.

Aynen öyle kardeşim, bunların hepsi en başından yapılabilirdi, her türlü imkan vardı. Şu anda aynı hatayı KAAN ın motorları konusunda yapıyoruz işi ağırdan alarak.

 

[Kejo]

Aynen öyle kardeşim, bunların hepsi en başından yapılabilirdi, her türlü imkan vardı. Şu anda aynı hatayı KAAN ın motorları konusunda yapıyoruz işi ağırdan alarak.

As much as I trust our engineers and their capabilities, I firmly believe that a military grade jet propulsion engine is out of our reach, at least for now.

I'm curious, though. What makes our people believe that we could develop a jet engine on our own? Is there something I haven't realised yet?

 

[merzifonlu]

Şu anda aynı hatayı KAAN ın motorları konusunda yapıyoruz işi ağırdan alarak.

I think they are waiting for the first data from the TF-6000 engine. If this engine produces 5000+ pounds of thrust on first ignition without any problems, then they will stop procrastinating and accelerate the project of developing the TF-35000 engine as much as possible.