Turkey to replace F-16s with local jets

[LegionnairE]

EuroJet Turbo GmbH is a multi-national consortium, the partner companies of which are Rolls-Royce plc, Avio of Italy, ITP of Spain and MTU Aero Engines of Germany. It is based in Hallbergmoos near Munich. France?

No MBDA share? no Aerospatiale shares?

What makes you say this?
EJ-2000 is made by Rolls Royce, one of the top 3 engine manufacturers in the world.

Check it's thrust output compare it with PW F135 It doesn't make any sense. Even twin EJ200s can't match with a single F135.

Building an underpowered air superiority craft to complement a more powerful multi-role doesn't make sense. I'd rather buy more F35s which TF-X obviously won't be a match for.

TF-X must be powered by twin F110s just like F15.

 

[UKBengali]

No MBDA share? no Aerospatiale shares?

Look at thrust output compare it with PW F135 It doesn't make any sense. Even twin EJ200s can't match with F135.
Building an underpowered air superiority craft to complement F35 doesn't make sense. I'd rather buy more F35s.

The difference in thrust is due to the fact they are completely different classes of engine.

Yes the F-135 has a T/W ratio of 11:1 compared to 9:1 for EJ-2000 but you must remember that the latter engine was ready a decade earlier.

The EJ-2000 was built with around 30% growth potential so T/W ratio of up to 12:1 would be available for Turkey. The current engine allows the Eurofighter to supercruise to around mach 1.4, so just imaginee what speed the higher thrust engine will give you!

Lastly the F-135 is a massive engine and unless Turkey is planning to build the world's largest fighter, then engines like EJ-2000 or GE F404 would be much more suitable for the class of fighter that Turkey has in mind.

Edit - I somehow missed the last point about the F-15 F110 engine. The F110 is a 4th generation engine and has a T/W ratio of only 8:1 whereas Turkey could get up to 12:1 from the EJ-2000. Any fighter built around twin F-110 would be a heavy-weight fighter and not sure if this is what Turkey has in the plan.

 

[LegionnairE]

Yes the F-135 has a T/W ratio of 11:1 compared to 9:1 for EJ-2000 but you must remember that the latter engine was ready a decade earlier.

Well, we are living in another decade now

The EJ-2000 was built with around 30% growth potential so T/W ratio of up to 12:1 would be available for Turkey. The current engine allows the Eurofighter to supercruise to around mach 1.4, so just imaginee what speed the higher thrust engine will give you!

We don't have Eurofighter, we have F16. It's only logical for us to standardize F110.

Lastly the F-135 is a massive engine and unless Turkey is planning to build the world's largest fighter,

extremely unlikely, what I'm proposing is to stick with F110 or develop a new engine based on F110 that can share parts with it's predecessor. It would save us from introducing a third type of engine and the outcome would be a design pretty much in same size with F15SE.

Edit - I somehow missed the last point about the F-15 F110 engine. The F110 is a 4th generation engine and has a T/W ratio of only 8:1 whereas Turkey could get up to 12:1 from the EJ-2000. Any fighter built around twin F-110 would be a heavy-weight fighter and not sure if this is what Turkey has in the plan.

It's the only way it makes sense to me, If we are to develop something to complement our multi-role F35 fleet, It must be specialized to do one job better than F35.

If it doesn't have range and speed and technical superiority then it's not worth R&D'ing, producing and introducing. infact I'm not sure wtf to do with a midget fighter that can't out preform F35 in air superiority.

 

[UKBengali]

extremely unlikely, what I'm proposing is to stick with F110 or develop a new engine based on F110 that can share parts with it's predecessor. It would save us from introducing a third type of engine and the outcome would be a design pretty much in same size with F15SE.

The most that you will get with the F110 is around 8:1 T/W ratio and that is with the latest version F110-GE-132 which incorporated technology from the F-22s F-119 engine. It is around a generation behind engines like EJ-2000 in technology

The EJ-2000 already has 9:1 T/W ratio and could easily go up to 12:1. You will get around the same thrust with an engine 30-35% lighter!

Unless Turkey can get the F-119 F-22 engine from the US, it may be best to stick to European manufacturers for it's next gen fighter engine.

 

[Neptune]

I'd go with pratt whitney's F-135 (currently in F-35). But as SSM states the current requirement of TURAF is a twin-engine stealth 5th gen air superiority (not sure) fighter. So I think F-110 (currently in F-15) would be pretty enough till we do our owns.

 

[LegionnairE]

The most that you will get with the F110 is around 8:1 T/W ratio and that is with the latest version F110-GE-132 which incorporated technology from the F-22s F-119 engine. It is around a generation behind engines like EJ-2000 in technology

Look I'm perfectly okay with the T/W ratio, my problem is with the maximum thrust. EJ is too "little" unless we make the only trijet fighter of the world I'll be opposing it.

 

[madmusti]

There is new Upgrade for the Eurofighter with called " Tranche 3 " with new Engines.

EJ230.
@LegionnairE

The Eurofighter is fast enough to Win any Dogfight and make his job Done.

I dont think that the Royal Airforce ,Luftwaffe & Italian Air Force & Spanish Airforce and all other´s who buy the Fighter are Stupid and not buy an F-15 or F-18.

For the Eurofighter you dont need so much Engine Power ,his Performance is enough ,and he has won the Test about against all of his opponents.

The West of Europe want´s a Multi-Role Fighter who is better then a MiG-29 ,who can Start Faster then all Planes.

That´s the Eurofighter.

 

[LegionnairE]

@madmusti you don't seem to understand my concerns, apparently you don't understand the concept of air superiority fighter either. F35 is also "fast enough to win any dogfight". The thing is, TFX must be superior to F35 as an air superiority craft, that means it needs longer range, more payload and enough fuel to stay in the air hours after F35 finish it's sortie and RTB. You can't achieve that with something like EF which barely matches in weight with F16.

EJ 230 doesn't exist beyond it's name yet. And yes, Except for the RAF other air forces you listed are jokes. Especially Italian and Spanish are miserable. Hence RAF is the only air force that will operate with both EF Tranche 2&3 and F35. The difference between us and them is that we achieved to standardize one aircraft to cover the whole 4. Generation which is F16 but they have been experimenting on the way.

What I'm saying is, fvck the EU and their concepts. We must base TFX on F22 Raptor. Frankly it's still the best. If we develop TFX around twin F110 type of engines we may still have to sacrifice some of the payload capacity in order to reach super cruise but it will compensate for F35's shorter range and give the upper hand to Turkey against IAF. This is how we dominate.

 

[madmusti]

@LegionnairE

Let´s make First a Stealth Fighter without any help from a different Country like Sweden.

First ,let´s make the TFX and then we can talk about what you want.

We need to replace the F16´s with TFX and we will need more then 200-300 TFX´s.

If we have a Multi-Role Fighter who can be a serious opponent to all other Fighter´s who Exist ,then we have done our job.

First it must have the Capacity to defend our Border and give our Airforce the advantage in his Fights.


It will more Base on Swedens Future Project´s then a F-22 Raptor.

 

[LegionnairE]

^I hope not.
We already have a multi role fighter which is F35. You can forget 200-300 TFX' it will never happen. Our main 5. generation fighter fleet will consist of F35 and it will be the only fighter jet will be ordered in so high numbers.

TFX' role is to complement this fleet. If TurAF orders it in any number higher than 100 I'll be surprised.

Fvck MKEK, Fvck EJ200,
Game of Thrones - The Hound, **** the king - YouTube

 

[u.MP]

LegionnairE

How reliable will the F35 be as the backbone of TuAF?
There are alot of flaws to the F35.

 

[LegionnairE]

LegionnairE

How reliable will the F35 be as the backbone of TuAF?
There are alot of flaws to the F35.

Excuse me but I don't see a better alternative. What I said here a while ago still applies:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey...ed-f-35-order-re-evaluated-8.html#post3884245

The US Armed Forces are replacing their old F16s and F/A18s with F35. We are replacing F4 Phantom IIs with F35. Don't you think F35's capable of more than that? For the last 40 years our F16 fleet formed the backbone of TurAf and F35 is direct successor of F16. What we do now with F16+F4, configuration, we'll do with F35+TFX in the 2040s.

At this point it's hard to predict exactly when will F16s retire from service but they will definitely serve along with F35s and TFX for at least a decade or two. It makes a lot of sense to build TFX around twin F110(GE132) engines to be replaced by indigenous engines sometime after 2040. I expect us to catch up with worldwide engine technologies by then.

 

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