Turkey to buy Super Mushshak trainers from Pakistan

[Arsalan]

The repair facility can double as a production facility too,503 can come in handy too,if the PAF wants to share load with PAA.
We made 300 aircraft till 2010 from 1980's,from assembling kits to doing everything at house.
Max is ~ 2/month.6 of the shelf are always there.

503 for Mushaq manufacturing ?
Not so sure!

 

[muhammadali233]

503 for Mushaq manufacturing ?
Not so sure!

503 to share load of PAF's mfi17 repair,whereas the pac mfi17 repair and manufacturing facility can start production at top gear.

 

[Arsalan]

503 to share load of PAF's mfi17 repair,whereas the pac mfi17 repair and manufacturing facility can start production at top gear.

I am not sure the plant meant for Mi17 (a helicopter) repairs will be able to make a new Mushaq (an aircraft)

 

[muhammadali233]

I am not sure the plant meant for Mi17 (a helicopter) repairs will be able to make a new Mushaq (an aircraft)

I saw some mushuk parts in 503 back then,don't know about today.503 is repair facility for most PAA aircraft isn't it?
Or they are all sent to PAC for repairs?
God knows better what is going to happen this deal after coup.Better pray this deal materialises.

 

[araz]

The repair facility can double as a production facility too,503 can come in handy too,if the PAF wants to share load with PAA.
We made 300 aircraft till 2010 from 1980's,from assembling kits to doing everything at house.
Max is ~ 2/month.6 of the shelf are always there.

So essentially 24 max a year. Our orders are for 30 planes so far with Turkey yet to announce the numbers.
A

 

[nomi007]

How many do we produce?
A

approximately 10-12 annually

 

[Sinnerman108]

The world war 2 fighters were more advanced aerodynamically than this.

 

[untitled]

The world war 2 fighters were more advanced aerodynamically than this.

How about comparing the Super Mushaak to a WWII era trainer such as a Tigermoth

 

[denel]

How about comparing the Super Mushaak to a WWII era trainer such as a Tigermoth

It is a pure basic trainer and does it well. We see them here. We had similar aircraft e.g. bosbok for observation use as well as training. Cheap to maintain and does the job. Remember the Harvard which was just WWII era was retired only recently by SAAF because it works and no headaches in terms of maintenance. You can fix it anywhere.

 

[Quwa]

1: Turkey Buying super Mashak from Pakistan
2: Turkey selling Ada class corvette to Pakistan
3: Turkey upgrading Agusta 90 of Pakistan

Hope fully next is

Turkey selling T129b to Pakistan
Turkey Pakistan to jointly develop upgraded Altay for Pakistan

I'd add JV in MILDEN submarine to one day replace our Agosta 90Bs.

 

[Tank131]

It boggles my mind how people think every military transaction should be useful in a full pitched war....
People who ask why would they buy SM when they gave T-37 or compare this aircraft to a WW2 fighter plane...you guys completely miss the issues.

THIS IS A PRIMARY FLIGHT TRAINER!!!! It is the same type of aircraft you would be in if you went to a flight school to learn to fly!!!!! Even military pilots start their training in these types of aircraft to learn the basics of flying. THEY ARE NOT FIGHTERS (not even turboprop fighters). These aircraft form the foundation for all different types of aircraft. So if you are going to fly fast jets (fighters), transports (jet or turboprop), or even airliners (again, jet or regional turboprop) you always start in something like this. We had similar aircraft at our university for new airforce pilots doing ROTC (reserve officer training corp) to learn on these before being sent into more advanced trainers that would transition them to their eventual aircraft (be they fast jet or other). These are meant to teach basic instrument flying. From these aircraft you transition to a host of various more advanced trainer, including turboprop basic trainers like Hurkus or T-6 Texan or the Super Tucano ect. These are more in line performance wise with where a WW2 fighter would be.

USAF for example uses Cessna T-41, Cessna T-51, Diamond T-52, and Cirrus T-53 PRIMARY FLIGHT TRAINERS. These are what you compare Super Mushak to and frankly the Super Mushak has slightly better performance measures in terms of Top Speed, Range, Service Ceiling, and Climb Rates than all of the ones used by USAF.

Different forces have different types of training aircraft but most will have a basic flight trainer like the Super Mushak. PAF for example goes from Super Mushak straight to T-37 Tweet (basic JET trainer) and then to the K-8 (intermediate jet trainer) and then to OCUs (operational conversion units). In the USAF they go from primary flight trainer to basic trainer (turboprop) like the T-6 Texan II and then into the T-38 advanced jet trainer. The T-6s have near jet performance which allows the USAF to eliminate the need for the T-37 Tweet which is much more expensive to operate. They graduate into the T-38 which will function as a mix of the K-8 and OCU prior to going into a full fledged fighter jet OCUs like F-16D and F-15D/F. The T-38 is afterall a derivation of the F-5B and F (major visual difference is the absence of LERX on the T-38)..

 

[denel]

What i would like to see is the replacement of T-37 with Super Tucanos; far cheaper to run.

 

[Paksanity]

What i would like to see is the replacement of T-37 with Super Tucanos; far cheaper to run.

Hurkus makes more sense given how things are moving these days.

 

[denel]

Hurkus makes more sense given how things are moving these days.

Yes correct that is a good possibility - but remember Tucano/super tucano is in the field and can take a heck of a beating.

 

[Paksanity]

Yes correct that is a good possibility - but remember Tucano/super tucano is in the field and can take a heck of a beating.

True, Tucano is an established system but three factors favour Hurkus. One PAF can squeeze few more years from T-37 while Hurkus develops to a mature system. Secondly TAI and PAF have developed good relationship over the years and Turkey is one of our most dependable defence partner. The way situation is developing, reliable partner has become priority for Pakistan. Thirdly, Hurkus has light attack and coastal defence versions. These are increasingly important in Pakistan's calculus. If T-129 deal goes ahead, there is added benefit of weapon commonality. Both systems compliment each other nicely. I think Turkey already plans to use T-129 and Hurkuş in complimentary role against PKK terrorists. Pakistan also needs to protect her coastlines especially around Gawadar and Sir Creek region against Indian infiltration. Hurkus C can do it at a reasonably lower cost. Let's not forget that bringing in versions of Hurkuş for different roles will bring costs down because of commonality in most areas.

As a reminder, Turkey gifted Pakistan their T-37s recently. It will be rudely ungrateful of us to choose Super Tucano while ignoring Turkish equivalent. I will request @cabatli_53 to share his thoughts on this matter. Perhaps inform us on how far program has progressed. In fact I am also interested to know if recent events are likely to effect Turkish defence industry in any manner. Perhaps to early to ask such questions but US reaction hasn't been very encouraging.