Turkey, Pakistan to sign a record deal to supply 30 ATAK helicopters

[war&peace]

Good deal. Pakistan needs helicopters that can operate in extremely adverse conditions. High altitude - most of Western Pakistan is high plateau at about 4-5,000 feet. In summer the climate can be dry and hot. In winter freezing and snow. On the eastern side of Pakistan we have flat deserts where temps can hit 45 C. But I think because Turkey also has varied and rugged climate, highlands, lowlands, semi arid, mountains this chopper is good fit for Pakistan. Also I think the support package will be superfluous. Down the road joint production would offer advantages of economies of scale. One platform that supplies two large militaries.

Good news all around !

4-5000 ft is too low.. we need choppers that have max ceiling > 4000-5000+ meters

 

[SQ8]

4-5000 ft is too low.. we need choppers that have max ceiling > 4000-5000+ meters

The higher you go, the thinner the air - lesser the lift along with lesser engine performance.

 

[war&peace]

The higher you go, the thinner the air - lesser the lift along with lesser engine performance.

Of course, so you need a chopper with a high P/W ratio.. i.e. lightweight. T-129 has a service ceiling of 15000 ft or 4752 m with ground effect which we have plenty in the northern and north-western areas. I don't know the performance data about T-129 II.

 

[Zapper]

Turkey’s ATAK helicopter sale to Pakistan stalled over missing engines - SoL
The sale of Turkish-made T129 ATAK helicopter gunships to Pakistan has hit a stumbling block as no engines have been found for the gunships after the United States failed to issue the permit required for their delivery, communist news site SoL reported on Wednesday.

Turkey and Pakistan signed a $1.5 billion deal for the Turkish-made helicopter gunships on July 13, 2018. The delivery date of the first helicopter was pushed back after the U.S. Department of Defence last year refused to issue the Turkish company with an export license for the delivery of the gunships’ CTS800 engines.

Producers in France and Poland are being considered as potential suppliers of the engine, according to Hürriyet newspaper.

Meanwhile, 41 ATAK helicopters have been delivered to the Turkish Land Forces Command and six to the Gendarmerie General Command, SoL said.

The deal between Ankara and Islamabad sees for the delivery of 30 T129 ATAK helicopters to Pakistan. Pakistan’s current AH-1F Cobra gunships lack the capability to perform adequately over the higher altitudes of the Hindu Kush mountain range, separating Afghanistan and Pakistan, according to the country’s officials

https://ahvalnews.com/atak/turkeys-atak-helicopter-sale-pakistan-stalled-over-missing-engines-sol

 

[Humble Analyst]

Turkey’s ATAK helicopter sale to Pakistan stalled over missing engines - SoL
The sale of Turkish-made T129 ATAK helicopter gunships to Pakistan has hit a stumbling block as no engines have been found for the gunships after the United States failed to issue the permit required for their delivery, communist news site SoL reported on Wednesday.

Turkey and Pakistan signed a $1.5 billion deal for the Turkish-made helicopter gunships on July 13, 2018. The delivery date of the first helicopter was pushed back after the U.S. Department of Defence last year refused to issue the Turkish company with an export license for the delivery of the gunships’ CTS800 engines.

Producers in France and Poland are being considered as potential suppliers of the engine, according to Hürriyet newspaper.

Meanwhile, 41 ATAK helicopters have been delivered to the Turkish Land Forces Command and six to the Gendarmerie General Command, SoL said.

The deal between Ankara and Islamabad sees for the delivery of 30 T129 ATAK helicopters to Pakistan. Pakistan’s current AH-1F Cobra gunships lack the capability to perform adequately over the higher altitudes of the Hindu Kush mountain range, separating Afghanistan and Pakistan, according to the country’s officials

https://ahvalnews.com/atak/turkeys-atak-helicopter-sale-pakistan-stalled-over-missing-engines-sol

Pakistan and Turkey being pushed hard.

Interesting place Turkey is in after all those years of being in NATO means nothing.

 

[Zapper]

The Pakistan and Turkey being pushed hard.

Interesting place Turkey is in after all those years of being in NATO means nothing.

After what Pak has been through with the US and now Turkey, I strongly vouch for my country not to go with F-21 (aka F-16) nor any big ticket weapons systems. I hope we work with the French to get the Kaveri Engine to the required thrust so that we don't need to procure GE-404 anymore but again, anything is possible when corrupt babus are at the helm in IAF & HAL

 

[AUz]

After what Pak has been through with the US and now Turkey, I strongly vouch for my country not to go with F-21 (aka F-16) nor any big ticket weapons systems. I hope we work with the French to get the Kaveri Engine to the required thrust so that we don't need to procure GE-404 anymore but again, anything is possible when corrupt babus are at the helm in IAF & HAL

Easier said than done because it is an undisputed fact that U.S produces the best and most advanced weapon systems on the planet. It has been proven again and again in military conflicts and as recently as Feb 27 Pakistan air strikes on india and shooting down of indian jet/jets without sustaining any single loss of its own. PAF F-16s (35 year old) were still able to outgun and outrange indian Su-30's equipped with much longer range radars and equal, if not longer range Russian R-77 BVRs.

So countries prefer to buy battle-proven and most capable systems from U.S than other countries. Hopefully countries like China, Turkey, UK/France, and Russia close the gap significantly in coming decades and this will provide true market-place of potent weapon systems to developing countries like india and Pakistan

 

[Dr. Abdul Basit]

how will these helos stand against apache of the enemy, if pitched in a battle?

 

[Cookie Monster]

how will these helos stand against apache of the enemy, if pitched in a battle?

Attack helicopters don't usually go head to head with each other. A counter for an attack helicopter isn't another attack helicopter.

 

[nahtanbob]

4-5000 ft is too low.. we need choppers that have max ceiling > 4000-5000+ meters

choppers have a limitation on high altitude operations
you cannot beat laws of physics

 

[Dr. Abdul Basit]

Attack helicopters don't usually go head to head with each other. A counter for an attack helicopter isn't another attack helicopter.

I understand and thanks for the clarification again. What I meant was regarding their specific roles especially anti armor

 

[Maxpane]

good news

 

[Cookie Monster]

I understand and thanks for the clarification again. What I meant was regarding their specific roles especially anti armor

In terms of anti armor role Apache is better. It can carry more payload(hellfire missiles and other such ammunition against enemy armored units). Apache has a millimeter wave radar...which the Turks were working on too last I heard...I haven't followed up on it to see if it was ever integrated into T129. Anyways I'm not that knowledgeable so perhaps someone better informed can come along and help us both out.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

In terms of anti armor role Apache is better. It can carry more payload(hellfire missiles and other such ammunition against enemy armored units). Apache has a millimeter wave radar...which the Turks were working on too last I heard...I haven't followed up on it to see if it was ever integrated into T129. Anyways I'm not that knowledgeable so perhaps someone better informed can come along and help us both out.

Mildar's tests and acceptances for T129 have taken place. But due to the structure of the helicopter, it cannot be integrated into the rotor section, but can be integrated into weapon stations. Atak 2 will also be integrated under the body.

 

[Zapper]

Easier said than done because it is an undisputed fact that U.S produces the best and most advanced weapon systems on the planet. It has been proven again and again in military conflicts and as recently as Feb 27 Pakistan air strikes on india and shooting down of indian jet/jets without sustaining any single loss of its own. PAF F-16s (35 year old) were still able to outgun and outrange indian Su-30's equipped with much longer range radars and equal, if not longer range Russian R-77 BVRs.

So countries prefer to buy battle-proven and most capable systems from U.S than other countries. Hopefully countries like China, Turkey, UK/France, and Russia close the gap significantly in coming decades and this will provide true market-place of potent weapon systems to developing countries like india and Pakistan

If that was the case, Turkey wouldn't have gone ahead with the S-400 when US was threatening to kick Turkey out of the F35. What's the point of having the most advanced weapons systems when you'll end up being a puppet to the US and should always act according to their interests.

AH-1Z deliveries to pakistan have been stopped and so were additional F-16s. While they were initially offered as part of an aid package, you never know when US would turn it's back. Regarding procuring additional jets for India, I'd say we should go with 1 or 2 more squadrons of Rafales to maintain uniformity with the current fleet and also it'd be easier wrt spares/maintenance. If IN also decides to go with Rafale-Ms for IAC-3 (54 required and US wouldn't offer F35, while IN isn't keen on F-18 for IAC-3), I'm sure Dassault would offer localized production with ToT

how will these helos stand against apache of the enemy, if pitched in a battle?

T129 ATAK comes more under the light attack chopper like that of the Chinese Z-10 or Indian LCH.

Also, attack choppers are used to support ground infantry & mechanized columns, used for anti-tank warfare but not for direct confrontation with another chopper