Turkey, NATO, US escalating war against Syria

[Arabian Legend]

Saudi the new supe powe! !!

What did I miss here, is it still 2012. ?

He is referring to Russia

 

[Meengla]

I feel that Pakistan cannot go in support Assad as Arab nations are good friends of Pakistan and Arab nation can influence the policy of Pakistan foreign policy wrt to Iran...

Yes, there is truth in that. And I think that's why Pakistanis are officially relatively quiet about the Syrian conflict. But what the Pakistani permanent rep. to UN says reflects the official Pakistani thinking: Firmly against foreign intervention in Syria, without naming any country. The statement was deliberately ambiguous: 'foreign' could mean Iran helping Syria but I really think the official Pakistani position was summed up as: Nobody--and that includes the Turks, the GCC, NATO, and Iran should interfere in Syria. This was a juggling act: Zardari has met several times with Ahmadinejad and has probably explained that Pakistan can only do so much defiance of the West/GCC without hurting Pakistan too much.

 

[Basbug]

You must be shaming other Turks with your cockiness?! Well, less than a hundred years ago the Ottoman Empire is so reduced that a stone's throw away you have the Greeks. Your PM crows about Jerusalem and yet watches helplessly as the Israelis are permanently turning Jerusalem into an Israeli permanent city. The Israelis killed 9 of your well-meaning citizens and you are content to do some diplomatic assaults--something you had done previously. You guys had the Zero-problem policies with neighbors and now you have a lot of neighbors pissed off. You do the same to Kurds which Assad is doing to the rebels except poor Kurds are not backed by any major power yet.
The Chinese--look up where they were in 1949 and how much they suffered. And look at them where they are now. ALL ON THEIR OWN SELVES! You better compare them against you and then be a little less cocky!
We Pakistanis are not going to take a side on the whole but Turks like you are gonna drag your country to some strategic over-reach which will certainly not benefit Turkey; listen to some of your own coworkers here!

A stones throw away? Wtf - - you sound retarded and have some deep anger and hatred at us, you say that thing against Israel, lets see if what would happen if they fired artillery in turkey, America killed innocents in your country what you do, although you should be criticizing our government i take it as an insult to our nation, you are probably the pakistanis that are embarrassed to use your name in Europe and West, act like them, say I'm from that country like Ohh I'm American, totally destroyed culture, don't know your language and your backing Chinese Loool and you back the poor Kurds? Hah just shame on you lol

 

[Basbug]

When I see people like Meengla I get shocked, we with all our hands and strength whatever it is in international arena back Pakistan, for kashmir and other causes even if this means being against some countries and trying to help with all we could and we get these ungrateful, iran supporting fans, ...... Go to Iran then see how much they helped you, see in a real situation how much the Chinese will help you if it's not in there interest, how iran sold you out by blocking the kashmir resolution, would we have more benefits economically etc if we left Pakistan and had such good relations with India? Yes but why don't we, so Pakistan don't get offended, so we have closer ties, most Chinese in streets dnt care about Pakistan only strategists and government and Politics people do for their interest while we help for the people as much as we could, shame on you

 

[Meengla]

A stones throw away? Wtf - - you sound retarded and have some deep anger and hatred at us, you say that thing against Israel, lets see if what would happen if they fired artillery in turkey, America killed innocents in your country what you do, although you should be criticizing our government i take it as an insult to our nation, you are probably the pakistanis that are embarrassed to use your name in Europe and West, act like them, say I'm from that country like Ohh I'm American, totally destroyed culture, don't know your language and your backing Chinese Loool and you back the poor Kurds? Hah just shame on you lol

You are going too far: I showed you a mirror where you were insulting Chinese for being once beaten by Japanese. I showed you that Turks too were once mighty and now look at where they are and look at where the Chinese are compared to 1949.
You know nothing about me! My very first post in this forum began with criticizing Pakistan's blind love for China and for that I was called a 'false flagger' (probably an Indian). You know nothing about me: I vigorously defended Turks when the Israelis attacked the Flotilla. You know nothing about me: I still, even if cautiously, raise my heads to drunk rednecks in the Southern nightlife scene and call myself a PAKISTANI!

However, what I said above about you is correct. You seem like a Turkish nationalist gone bad and I had to mention that. I will not retract what I said. We Pakistanis are not taking side in the Syrian conflict. We consider Turks as our brothers. But a brother has to tell the other brother when the other brother makes a mistake.

 

[Basbug]

You are going too far: I showed you a mirror where you were insulting Chinese for being once beaten by Japanese. I showed you that Turks too were once mighty and now look at where they are and look at where the Chinese are compared to 1949.
You know nothing about me! My very first post in this forum began with criticizing Pakistan's blind love for China and for that I was called a 'false flagger' (probably an Indian). You know nothing about me: I vigorously defended Turks when the Israelis attacked the Flotilla. You know nothing about me: I still, even if cautiously, raise my heads to drunk rednecks in the Southern nightlife scene and call myself a PAKISTANI!

However, what I said above about you is correct. You seem like a Turkish nationalist gone bad and I had to mention that. I will not retract what I said. We Pakistanis are not taking side in the Syrian conflict. We consider Turks as our brothers. But a brother has to tell the other brother when the other brother makes a mistake.

We can't attack a nation a for killing our citizens because that isn't a reason for war if they fired a missile into our country and our citizens died then we could have but you say why didn't you do anything, in Iran revolution didn't Americans die?? Did America have war,?? Didn't America shoot down iran plane killed like 260 people did iran war or do something? Many, many examples so many, should we have declared war on Israel for that? What should we do, that would be the softest war reason seen in universe, we could have done some proxy war type like blowing up Israeli civilian thing or something like iran does but we never do them things ever... So tell me....

 

[JUBA]

Saudi the new supe powe! !!

What did I miss here, is it still 2012. ?

Nope, it's the US the nation that still suffer for the last 12 years along side with another 30 nation fighting a small group in Afghanistan armed with AKs & RPGs and still can't win s$!T.....

 

[AbuMuslim]

We can't attack a nation a for killing our citizens because that isn't a reason for war if they fired a missile into our country and our citizens died then we could have but you say why didn't you do anything, in Iran revolution didn't Americans die?? Did America have war,?? Didn't America shoot down iran plane killed like 260 people did iran war or do something? Many, many examples so many, should we have declared war on Israel for that? What should we do, that would be the softest war reason seen in universe, we could have done some proxy war type like blowing up Israeli civilian thing or something like iran does but we never do them things ever... So tell me....

Basbug, I wouldn't worry about it.

There's a war going on in Pakistan between the 15% Twelve Imam Shia ruling elite such as the Zardari's and Bhutto's whose ancestry and family links are with the regime in Iran and the 80% of Sunni Muslims who are converts from Hinduism and descendants of native Industanis.

Until recently most Pakistanis weren't aware that Iran's constitution bans anyone but a Twelve Imam Shia from being the ruler of Iran, while they cynically talk a lot about 'brotherhood' between Sunnis and Shia, we can see how they practise it in Iran, where 7 Imam Shia, Ismaili Shia, and Bahai'is, let alone the Sunnis are second class citizens, just like Syria.

Pakistan on the other hand has had a number of Shia rulers such as Syed Iskander Mirza (the descendant of Syed Mir Jaafar Ali, the greatest traitor in Industani history), Yahya Khan Qizilbashi, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Benazir Bhutto, and Asif Ali Zardari. As Vali Nasr the Iranian Shia historian writes, the Shia elite have become worried that power may be slipping out of their hands.

Thus when you see certain people from Pakistan attacking Turkey or other Muslim states, remember it's because Pakistan itself has a very clear division between those who pretend to be secularists but actually want a theocratic Twelve Imam Shia state in Pakistan, and the Sunni Muslim majority whose links are with Turkey and other friendly Muslim states.

'Sufi Islam' in Sindh basically consists of Twelve Imam Shia feudals whose ancestors migrated from Iran, and who all now claim to be descended from 11 'infallible beings'. Dr Markus Daechsel of Royal Holloway has brilliantly described this in his Guardian article. 'An elite clings on to power -The idea that Pakistan is being 'Talibanised' helps stifle dissent and protect privilege'--which you can find by searching Google.

"William Dalrymple recently claimed in this newspaper that Sindh – Zardari's home province – was a model of peace and tranquility, and that Sufism – the local brand of mystical Islam – should be recommended as an antidote to the Wahhabi extremism of the frontier. What Dalrymple, and others of similar opinion, do not say is that the tranquility in rural Sindh is achieved through the near total power of feudal landowners who pose as secular parliamentarians by day but punish local dissent with greatest brutality at night. The veneration of saints (pirs) that is fundamental to Sufi Islam is an essential component in this network of oppression as most of these saints are closely linked to the landowners by financial and family ties. It was actually the unwillingness of anybody else to represent the grievances of local tenant populations against such landowners in the south of Punjab that gave a first opening to Sunni sectarian groups widely associated with today's "Talibanisation".

Much of what can be described as a "religious turn" in Pakistan today is best explained with reference to increasing social mobility and political mobilisation. The influx of remittances from the Gulf states and elsewhere, a growing urbanisation of the population and the expansion of higher education over the last decades have created both the opportunity and the need for new forms of social identity to millions of Pakistanis. A more visible espousal of Islamic dress, for instance, by first-generation female students or working women represents an attempt to rework old ideas of respectability into more mobile and self-aware forms.

The demand for sharia law similarly acquires a less sinister and reactionary meaning when seen in the local context. Most cases in the official legal system drag on for so long as to financially destroy the economically weaker party regardless of the merit of their claims. The infamous Red Mosque madrassa in Islamabad, which was before its bloody demolition by the Musharraf government in 2007 seen as the very lynchpin of "Talibanisation", did have a large and flourishing section for female students. When interviewed on cable television during the siege, their worried parents turned out to be less religious radical than mainstream conservatives of aspiring working class background. In a country where almost all access to power and economic resources depends on expensive private education, it is unsurprising that they would choose a madrassa as the most affordable option."

 

[Tshering22]

This is a very complicated situation. Bashar Al Assad will do everyone a huge favour if he steps down and let free and fair elections take place.

Do you really think that after years of living like a king, he would want to step down? No dictator ever wants that because power is that lucrative. It clouds broader thinking. Bashar would rather have tanks and jets bomb the rest of his country and exterminate opposition that give in to their demands.

To the members here, I feel that it is best to see the battle die its own death. There is simply too much at stake; If this war escalates and Turkey is forced to take military action, Iran and KSA will follow suit; Oil prices would be murderous.

After the disaster we had in Arab Spring; it is best to let revolts die their own deaths.

I don't know how NATO manages it but they are really walking on a very thin line between WW3 and collapse of world economy.

Any external intervention would mean that a lot of shyte will hit a lot of fans.

 

[Tshering22]

Yes, there is truth in that. And I think that's why Pakistanis are officially relatively quiet about the Syrian conflict. But what the Pakistani permanent rep. to UN says reflects the official Pakistani thinking: Firmly against foreign intervention in Syria, without naming any country. The statement was deliberately ambiguous: 'foreign' could mean Iran helping Syria but I really think the official Pakistani position was summed up as: Nobody--and that includes the Turks, the GCC, NATO, and Iran should interfere in Syria. This was a juggling act: Zardari has met several times with Ahmadinejad and has probably explained that Pakistan can only do so much defiance of the West/GCC without hurting Pakistan too much.

The underlined part is what would piss off the Arabs. The GCC countries are interested to expand their influence into the new shaky Syria. You by showing neutrality and being against external intervention, have kinda made it explicit.

BTW just an idea;

How would Pakistani Army be when sent under UN flag as peacekeepers? I mean you guys are the largest contributors to UNPKF and have a wide presence in areas of conflict in Africa.

I feel that Pakistan being an outside-the-region country, but with similar faith would find more acceptance among Syrians than Arabs or Turks or Iranis.

Just an idea.

If it succeeds, Pakistan's efforts will be lauded by UN for bringing stability to Syrian situation.

 

[Meengla]

@Tshering:
Pakistani peacekeepers or anyone's peacekeepers can't do jack in Syria. Syria is an extremely high-stake battleground and toppling of Assad is linked to neutralizing Hezbollah and then the planned attack against Iran. Pakistan is basically a no-player.
Assad may be a dictator but when a country's minorities (Christians, for example) prefer the dictator then it should tell you something about that person. I'd rather live under Assad than under the King of Saudi Arabia. Mind you, I was born and raised as a Sunni Muslim!
Anyway, Assad's cardinal sin remains that he refused to concede the Golan Heights to Israel and thus got in bed with Iran and Hezbollah.

 

[Meengla]

There's a war going on in Pakistan between the 15% Twelve Imam Shia ruling elite such as the Zardari's and Bhutto's whose ancestry and family links are with the regime in Iran and the 80% of Sunni Muslims who are converts from Hinduism and descendants of native Industanis.

First post and a nice attempt to divide Pakistanis! You are so wrong, so ignorant about Pakistani politics that it is laughable! We Pakistanis can genuinely take pride in having a Sunni-majority State which allows a lot of ethnic/religious minorities to get to prominent positions. There has never been any attempt by any of these so-called Shia leaders to turn Pakistan to a replica of Iran. Never. Please educate yourself first before bringing your Wahabbi-garbage to the forum.

 

[AbuMuslim]

First post and a nice attempt to divide Pakistanis! You are so wrong, so ignorant about Pakistani politics that it is laughable! We Pakistanis can genuinely take pride in having a Sunni-majority State which allows a lot of ethnic/religious minorities to get to prominent positions. There has never been any attempt by any of these so-called Shia leaders to turn Pakistan to a replica of Iran. Never. Please educate yourself first before bringing your Wahabbi-garbage to the forum.

Meengla,

'When reason fails, slander soon follows' - Socrates.

Instead of addressing the issues you've now resorted to personal attacks. I'm going to ignore your attempt to drag me to your level, but suffice to say I'm not a Salafi. I guess it's easy to assume that everyone bases their decisions on sectarian motives if your whole life revolves around taqiya, treachery, and sectarian hatred.

Pakistanis would take pride if there had been a genuine election in Pakistan's history, instead there has been an ongoing two party war between the Shia feudals and the military for control of the state. The difference between the military and the Shia feudals is that, unlike the latter, the former isn't based on sect and ethnic origins in Iran but is based on some element of merit.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There will be no third world war over Syria, and anyone who states that there will be, needs to answer the following questions:

1. In the event that the Turkish government responds to the growing refugee crisis and genocide in Syria by intervening to remove the minority Nusayri group, how will the Russian military transport its troops to Syria? Will this be via the Bosphorus? via the countries of the Caucasus, Iran, Iraq and then Syria? How?

2. If the Russian government decides it doesn't have the capability to transport the large number of troops needed will they then bomb Turkish cities with the certainty that NATO will be obliged to respond against Russian cities? all this for Syria? really?

3. If by some miracle the Russian military manages to get to Syria by teleportation, how long will they be prepared to occupy Syria in the certain knowledge that not only will Turkey and virtually every country in the region including Israel see them as a threat but that they will be arming the FSA as an anti-occupation force?

The claims of Russian--and how much more so Chinese--intervention to preserve the Nusayri regime are just a bluff by Iran. It's something one can expect from a regime whose leaders lied to the many Sunni Iranians who died to remove the Shah and then found Khomeini created a constitution which made them second class citizens in their own country.

 

[PeaceGen]

This will be the start of WW3. USA intends to destroy Syria first and then by next year continue the war directly against Iran. Very likely, we will see joint Russian and Chinese moves to strike back against USA elsewhere.

You are delusional.

The USA and NATO would like nothing better to bring peace and stability to Syria.

China and Russia would love to see Iran with nuclear weapons, followed by the rest of the middle east of course, so that these nukes can then be stolen one at a time and used at the same time against western cities. That would allow Russia and China to deal a potential death blow to NATO, while condemning the violence of course.

I'm starting to dislike China's and Russia's foreign policies more and more. They are quite transparent and quite evil.

 

[SinoChallenger]

You are delusional.

The USA and NATO would like nothing better to bring peace and stability to Syria.

China and Russia would love to see Iran with nuclear weapons, followed by the rest of the middle east of course, so that these nukes can then be stolen one at a time and used at the same time against western cities. That would allow Russia and China to deal a potential death blow to NATO, while condemning the violence of course.

I'm starting to dislike China's and Russia's foreign policies more and more. They are quite transparent and quite evil.

Without nuking of Europe there cannot be world peace so go ahead and accept your fate.