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Turkey Leans Toward Local Air Defense System

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Turkey Leans Toward Local Air Defense System
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ANKARA — Turkey is likely to pursue an indigenous long-range air and anti-missile defense system since recently canceling a competition, although analysts are split over how much foreign help local companies will need.

One senior procurement official said local development looks like the most feasible option.

“We believe that a group of local companies are capable of developing the system, with or without foreign know-how,” he said.

The government may soon commission missile maker Roketsan and military electronics specialist Aselsan, Turkey’s biggest defense firm, to go ahead with the program. Both companies are state-controlled.

A source from Aselsan said that it was not clear what level of foreign know-how the Turkish companies would need for the program.

“This [program] will be a challenge for the local industry. But we are confident that once completed Turkey will have earned local capabilities to counter long-range air and missile threats,” the source said.

A Roketsan executive said that both Turkish companies possessed the engineering resources necessary for the program, dubbed T-LORAMIDS.

“We may work with a foreign partner or partners at the initial stages of the program,” he said.

Two years ago, Turkey selected China Precision Machinery Import Export Corp (CPMIEC) for the $3.44 billion project. But Ankara came under pressure from its NATO allies over the possibility of selecting a Chinese system, and launched parallel talks with the European and US contenders. On Nov. 13, Turkey canceled the competition.

A military official said cancellation of the foreign competition did not mean Turkey gave up on the program.

“The threats which required these [long-range air and anti-missile] capabilities still exist. This will remain a priority program involving indigenous work,” he said.

In addition to CPMIEC, Turkey had been in talks with Eurosam, maker of the SAMP-T, and a US partnership of Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, maker of the Patriot system.

At the end of October, Turkey’s top procurement chief, Ismail Demir, said Ankara had reached a “certain clarity” in its pending decision on the air defense system.

“We are reviewing several parameters. We want to make a decision without a further extension,” Demir said.

Industry experts warn that Turkey’s efforts to develop an indigenous system could be costly and take longer than expected.

“Turkey does not have the expertise in this kind of technology for a swift and economical solution,” one London-based expert said.

Sitki Egeli, a missile defense expert, said a local program would take 10 to 15 years to develop and manufacture.

“Turkey’s only option is to partner with a country or a group of countries that possess these capabilities and are willing to share them,” Egeli said. “Turkey must be patient and prepared to allocate a big budget for a program of this size.”

Turkey in 2007 designed a program to indigenously develop and produce short- and medium-altitude air defense systems, granting the work to a partnership of Aselsan and Roketsan. In October 2013, Aselsan completed the test launch of its first domestically developed and manufactured low-altitude air defense missile, Hisar-A, and set to work on Hisar-O, the medium-altitude system. Proponents say Turkey could build on the success of these programs to create its own long-range system.

Prime contractor Aselsan is developing all radar, fire control, command, control and communication systems for the program while Roketsan is acting as the executive subcontractor. Ideally, the Hisar-A system, which will protect against all kinds of airborne targets thanks to its vertical launch capability, will enter the Turkish military inventory in 2017, but industry sources said the program faces delays due to technical snags.

When combined and made interoperable, Hisar-A and Hisar-O will destroy threats at low-medium altitude. The program involves the development and production of two types of ground systems; self-propelled, armored vehicle-mounted air defense missile systems; and the missile.

Hisar-A is an air defense missile system mounted on a self-propelled armored vehicle and can be fully autonomous by means of 3-D radar, electro-optic system, command, control and fire control.

Turkey Leans Toward Local Air Defense System
 
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western companies dont want to share anything, they want to sell ready system but Turkey doesn t want to buy ready systems anymore...
 
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@Some1LikeU Turkey has very good defence ties with/cooperation Britain's defence Giants especially BAE systems and Rolls Royce..

Turkey's Aselsan to do deal with Rolls-Royce and Airbus
$100 million subcon contract for BAE Systems | News | The Engineer

Plus we will also be helping Turkey power its fighter jet with our EJ200 in which Rolls Royce is the main stakeholder since the engine is largely based on the Rolls-Royce XG-40 core technology demonstrator.

Turkey's ASELSAN inks deal with Eurojet for EJ200 engine | Brahmand News

WIN-WIN. :cheers:
 
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Turkey has very good defence ties with Britain Giants especially BAE systems and Rolls Royce..
Turkey's Aselsan to do deal with Rolls-Royce and Airbus
$100 million subcon contract for BAE Systems | News | The Engineer

Plus we will also be helping Turkey power its fighter jet with our EJ200 in which Rolls Royce is the main stakeholder since the engine is largely based on the Rolls-Royce XG-40 core technology demonstrator.

Turkey's ASELSAN inks deal with Eurojet for EJ200 engine | Brahmand News

WIN-WIN. :cheers:

Kale group is also working on a large engine motors (for now cruise missile engine) with PW, maybe i dont know, its depend on up to BAE, Turkey working on it slowly maybe they need help to reduce the time, i wonder EJ230 (if am not wrong) what about it? ready or still develop stage?
 
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Kale group is also working on a large engine motors (for now cruise missile engine) with PW, maybe i dont know, its depend on up to BAE, Turkey working on it slowly maybe they need help to reduce the time, i wonder EJ230 (if am not wrong) what about it? ready or still develop stage?

Well, I dont think Turkey has the capabilities to build a fighter jet engine on its own. Only a select few nations in the world have so far built a proven/reliable operational fighter jet engine that has been operational and exported in active service with foreign countries across the globe i.e the U.S, U.K, France and Russia(some will add Germany), while China is still in the process of doing so/working hard on it.

So as you can guess its not an easy task and requires huge investment/capital/skill/experience/mature technology/industrial capabilities and patience. etc. I don't want to sound mean, but i don't think Turkey can do it alone to be honest.
Anyway EJ230 is still in development phase as far as i know and will be fully ready before 2020 from what i know. Plus when they are fully ready they will be the best of their kind in the world, even better than GE F414-400. Since it is said our EJ230 jet engine burns 5% less fuel burn, produces 7% more thrust, uses 20% less runway for takeoffs and landings, and of course is much more agile than most engines of its class as its performance in high altitude is outstanding in 60,000 feet flight unlike GE- F414. So this engine will be a winner for any country choosing this beauty. :cheers:
 
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Well, I dont think Turkey has the capabilities to build a fighter jet engine on its own. Only a select few nations in the world have so far built a proven/reliable operational fighter jet engine that has been operational and exported in active service with foreign countries across the globe i.e the U.S, U.K, France and Russia(some will add Germany), while China is still in the process of doing so/working hard on it.

So as you can guess its not an easy task and requires huge investment/capital/skill/experience/mature technology/industrial capabilities and patience. etc. I don't want to sound mean, but i don't think Turkey can do it alone to be honest.
Anyway EJ230 is still in development phase as far as i know and will be fully ready before 2020 from what i know. Plus when they are fully ready they will be the best of their kind in the world, even better than GE F414-400. Since it is said our EJ230 jet engine burns 5% less fuel burn, produces 7% more thrust, uses 20% less runway for takeoffs and landings, and of course is much more agile than most engines of its class as its performance in high altitude is outstanding in 60,000 feet flight unlike GE- F414. So this engine will be a winner for any country choosing this beauty. :cheers:

You don't sound mean. It's the reality. But what about Sweden? Can't they built a jet engine?
 
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You don't sound mean. It's the reality. But what about Sweden? Can't they built a jet engine?

Well, i'm not sure, givens its size and limited resources/capital.
The gist of it is that jet/turbine engines are very capital intensive things to make and the price of labor going in to them is huge.

Its also one of the reason that there's has not yet been any companies in the developing world making these engines(both jet and turbine) is because the requisite talent hasn't existed for long enough. Jet engines don't have any clear avenues for innovative development, rather, you just have to work new materials and geometries into your engine which makes R&D very expensive and competitive. It goes without saying that designing an engine from scratch is a very expensive and intense process. It takes very gifted engineers, managers, and scientists to even work out the ideas and if those people are that gifted, they probably already work for an established engine manufacturer or one the big 3 for commercial airlines(GE,Rolls Royce, Pratt Whitney) or one of the big five for military jet engines(i.e the big three mentioned above plus Snecma and Russia's Saturn ).

Additionally, the materials used in a jet engine are among the most advanced around. These materials are extremely difficult to work with and only a handful of manufacturers around the world are specialized enough to complete the job. From conceptualization to final production, it may take around 20-30 years at least to develop a turbofan engine. Such late return on investment is very difficult to absorb for smaller players. The base cost for this industry is very huge compared to return on investment. Huge infrastructure cost is involved. You need several different kind of manufacturing plants, test facilities, hundreds of human resources of different level of skill-sets, compliance to the stringent aviation rules to get established in the industry.:cheesy:
I'm not even talking about the design and manufacturing of turbine blade which is one of most advanced technology of humans/mankind.lol. The materials used(single crystal), the way they are designed (cooling mechanism) and their manufacturing (tightest of tolerance and precision) demand very high level of sophistication. You can have all the theoretical knowledge and even all the drawings but still there is no guarantee that you can manufacture one actual engine.:agree:

Moreover, the return on investment is not very high in comparison to say, a software industry. So, most of OEMs don't make any profit with the actual sell of engines but reach the break-even point and subsequently profit only by providing servicing to the sold engines. So its for this reason very few companies/countries in the world have so far been successful in this very high tech industry. So nope, i don't think Sweden has all it takes to build one as of now, it will need to sacrifice a lot of time/capital for that which it doesn't have/need to.:D
 
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@mike2000 is back

What about Motorsich Ukraine :-)

Without Ukraine China couldn't have developed anything sophisticated

Aerospace cooperation between Ukraine and china

Svenska Flygmotor AB (SFA), and later on Volvo Flygmotor.
Since the 1950s the company have been the major engine supplier to the Swedish Air Force. The Volvo Aero Group has 3,600 employees and in 2003 had total sales of 0.9 billion euros. Today Volvo Aero is a partner in more than ten commercial engine programmes. Components from Volvo Aero are installed in more than 90% of all large commercial aircraft engines sold.
On 6 July 2012 Volvo Aero was acquired by the British aerospace manufacturer GKN in a SEK 6.9 billion deal

Sweden is almost independent in all military fields. And Turkey has to follow that model.
Ecevit tried but Olof Palme was killed
 
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@Some1LikeU Turkey has very good defence ties with/cooperation Britain's defence Giants especially BAE systems and Rolls Royce..

Turkey's Aselsan to do deal with Rolls-Royce and Airbus
$100 million subcon contract for BAE Systems | News | The Engineer

Plus we will also be helping Turkey power its fighter jet with our EJ200 in which Rolls Royce is the main stakeholder since the engine is largely based on the Rolls-Royce XG-40 core technology demonstrator.

Turkey's ASELSAN inks deal with Eurojet for EJ200 engine | Brahmand News

WIN-WIN. :cheers:
hopefully not

unless we can make it %100 national, I see no point in TFX right now... I'd rather wait 10 years and see how F35's doing and assess what we need from there meanwhile develop our own set of engines so we can have %100 intellectual rights to the plane and export it to whomever we please. And build something that offers something that F35 can't. So I don't have a zillion aircraft that does the same job. Because TURAF doesn't need a

We have German engines in many of our land vehicles and whenever we try to export them to Azerbaijan fvckers cockblock the whole deal. As if Azerbaijan is the evil side in that conflict. I can't stress how much I'm sick and tired of that. I'd rather not have that with our aircraft aswell.


We can work on civilian airliners in partnership with UK... that'd be much more suitable.
and much less stressful
 
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Turkish members;

Why doesn't Turkey establish a state firm (with private inputs and partnerships) focused solely development of engines and related technologies.

Turkey needs to develop engines for its various products--starting from tanks, Armored Vehicles etc and going all the way to fighter jets.

I know, it is a daunting task as @mike2000 is back has already explained but Turkey can set the target year something like 2035, 2040. It would be a gigantic strategic investment, only short of developing nuclear weapons and delivery systems.
 
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You don't sound mean. It's the reality. But what about Sweden? Can't they built a jet engine?
Bro, Gripen uses licensed produced F-404 engine. And no they are not entirely building the engine themselves. %80 of the parts of the engine directly comes from US.

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@mike2000 is back

Mate, it is not like we are sitting idly and praying for the indigenous engine to fall from the sky. :) There are considerable research going on this field....however it's still too early(decades early) to talk about a TurboFan engine which is capable of powering a fighter jet.

Take a look.
Turkish Powerpack Projects | Page 18
 
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I know, it is a daunting task as @mike2000 is back has already explained but Turkey can set the target year something like 2035, 2040. It would be a gigantic strategic investment, only short of developing nuclear weapons and delivery systems.

True talk. At least its better to start earlier than later. Even though it will take a very long time , but at the end of the day it will be worth it once/if they get it/succeed.
@mike2000 is back

Mate, it is not like we are sitting idly and praying for the indigenous engine to fall from the sky. :) There are considerable research going on this field....however it's still too early(decades early) to talk about a TurboFan engine which is capable of powering a fighter jet.

Take a look.
Turkish Powerpack Projects | Page 18

Good initiative. However, as i said it will take quite a while for this to mature, probably decades. Just need to be focus and be aware that even though you will be investing billions into this field, you won't be seeing any immediate/short term benefit/return on this. So the government will have to stay put despite all this.

Moreover, in the half century plus that turbine engines have been built, we have gone through many generations of improvement and refinement. As turbines have improved, they have become more compact and have moved to higher temperatures and pressures while increasing their useful life.

If somehow you could know everything that is known today about how to manufacture an engine, you could not compete, because that engine is already being made. They have turbine blades made out of single crystals of metal, composite fan blades, low emission combustors, and alloy disks free from minute imperfections.

For Turkey or any other new country/company to succeed, the company/country must be working on the next generation of improvements and maturing them for entry into the next engine. In short, turbine engine technology is too mature for a new company to enter the field. However this doesn't mean new entrants shouldn't strive to enter this monopolistic market, they should and will do so, but they need to bear in mind that it will take them even more time to catch up with the established players much less outdoing them/bringing something new in the market that these players don't offer as of yet.

On another note, i noticed the Russians don't seem to care too much about the fuel efficiency part of their engines(unlike U.S/U.K & France) and do put out a significant volume of jet engines and planes that perform relatively well, at costs far less than what Western powers do. They are the ones our defence giants will be watching more of them in world markets in the years to come. @vostok

What about Motorsich Ukraine :-)

Without Ukraine China couldn't have developed anything sophisticated

Aerospace cooperation between Ukraine and china

Well, Ukraine got almost all its industries/technology from the U.S.S.R, reason i still consider it soviet/Russian tech somehow. lol
Anyway, we cant blame China though, they were/are a late comer to the game as well. So they need to find the shortest route to catch up with established world powers who industrialized decades/century before them. So they will need more time for their engines to get to par with western powers like U.S/U.K/France and Russia in this field.
 
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