Turkey & Iran and Iran and Arabs (The Political Differences)

[ASQ-1918]

There were some Turcomans (Shiites) from Eastern Anatolia who joined the Qizilbash, and some settled in Azarbaijan, or took refuge there - but not in huge numbers. QUOTE]

Wow, just wow.

Some of the tribes or clans that settled in Azerbaijan from Anatolia. Whole tribes.

Karamanlu, Varsaq, Dulkadirlu, Tekeli, Humuslu, Shamlu, Rumlu, Ustaclu, Arapgirlu, Turgudlu, Bozcalu, Acirlu etc...

 

[jinxeD_girl]

You can see in Russian Tsar documents that they called Azerbaijani Turks as "Tatar".

This is a census of Russian Empire showing ethnic composition of Irevan (Yerevan) governorate.

http://i51.tinypic.com/e7mf7o.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/2cerehu.jpg

Armyanski - Kurdski - Yevreyski (Jew) - Tatarski (Azerbaijani)

Ok dude we heard your point of view.. that Azerbaijanis are "Turkic" people and not "Iranic". Looks like u r mad because Iran supports Armenia and not Azerbaijan... I don't know much about Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict,so I can't comment on that issue. But I have met some Armenians and they are nice people. Azerbaijanis are nice people too

 

[AKINCI]

I don't understand why this thread has gone so far? It is obvious that even today's Turks are ethnically Anatolian people and not migrated from Central Asia. Genetically the pool of Turkish population that have DNA stemming from around the Altai Mountains (Central Asia) is lesser than 3 percent. That makes perfect sense, since Anatolian people changed their religion with Seljuk Turks conquering their lands and other Turkish beyliks and "emirates". Later with Ottoman Empire that specific Turkish culture and language has been spread to every part of Anatolia plus many other places including Middle East, North Africa and Balkans. As one poster said, it is more about the culture and language than the genetic makeup that makes a nation.

We are Oghuz Turks like who cares DNA's of Altai People?

Oghuz Turk dynasties

Bozoklar (Brown Arrows)
Kayı [14] (founders of the Ottoman dynasty and Ghaznavids Dynasty and Jandarids)
Bayat (founders of the Qajar dynasty and Dulkadirids Fuzûlî )
Alkaevli
Karaevli
Yazır
Döger (founders of the Artuqid dynasty)
Dodurga
Yaparlı
Afshar(founders of the Afsharid dynasty Nader Shah and Karamanid dynasty )
Kızık
Begdili (founders of the Khwarazmian dynasty )
Kargın

Üçoklar (Three Arrows)
Bayandur (founders of the Ak Koyunlu dynasty and Safavid dynasty )
Pecheneg
Çavuldur Tzachas[citation needed]
Chepni
Salur (founders of the Kara Koyunlu dynasty and Kadi Burhan al-Din and Salgurlular State in Iraq Salar people )
Eymür Karakalpaks
Alayuntlu
Yüreğir (founders of the Ramadanid dynasty)
İgdir
Büğdüz
Yıva
Kınık (founders of the Seljuk Empire [15]


We came into Anatolia, Caucasus and Iran and mixed with other races in there. A lot of Armenian and Romans (Greeks),non Muslims has chosen Islam, mixed with us. Already Turks came into Anatolia before Seljuks, there were a lot of Turks in Balkans, north of Black Sea and even in Byzantine Army. You know they joined Seljuks Army in Manzikert War.For example today's DNAs of Turks closer than Kurds to Greeks or Armenians. Today's Central Asian people mixed with Mongols who are not Turkic so their DNA's different from us but our religion is same, our languages are similar and our history is common. Don't worry we support Turk-Islam union too but Turks can be unite more easily than your lovely Arabs. Look to Arabs, they are neighbours but not unite.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

We are Oghuz Turks like who cares DNA's of Altai People?

Oghuz Turk dynasties

Bozoklar (Brown Arrows)
Kayı [14] (founders of the Ottoman dynasty and Ghaznavids Dynasty and Jandarids)
Bayat (founders of the Qajar dynasty and Dulkadirids Fuzûlî )
Alkaevli
Karaevli
Yazır
Döger (founders of the Artuqid dynasty)
Dodurga
Yaparlı
Afshar(founders of the Afsharid dynasty Nader Shah and Karamanid dynasty )
Kızık
Begdili (founders of the Khwarazmian dynasty )
Kargın

Üçoklar (Three Arrows)
Bayandur (founders of the Ak Koyunlu dynasty and Safavid dynasty )
Pecheneg
Çavuldur Tzachas[citation needed]
Chepni
Salur (founders of the Kara Koyunlu dynasty and Kadi Burhan al-Din and Salgurlular State in Iraq Salar people )
Eymür Karakalpaks
Alayuntlu
Yüreğir (founders of the Ramadanid dynasty)
İgdir
Büğdüz
Yıva
Kınık (founders of the Seljuk Empire [15]


We came into Anatolia, Caucasus and Iran and mixed with other races in there. A lot of Armenian and Romans (Greeks),non Muslims has chosen Islam, mixed with us. Already Turks came into Anatolia before Seljuks, there were a lot of Turks in Balkans, north of Black Sea and even in Byzantine Army. You know they joined Seljuks Army in Manzikert War.For example today's DNAs of Turks closer than Kurds to Greeks or Armenians. Today's Central Asian people mixed with Mongols who are not Turkic so their DNA's different from us but our religion is same, our languages are similar and our history is common. Don't worry we support Turk-Islam union too but Turks can be unite more easily than your lovely Arabs. Look to Arabs, they are neighbours but not unite.

Relax there buddy, no one talked about arabs or anything. By the way, religion wise we are much closer to arabs than to Azarbaijan. Remember Azarbaijan is shia while majority of Arabs are sunni.

 

[Alienoz_TR]

Genetic mixture started in central Asia. In pre turkic history, central Asia was inhabited by sogdianes, iranic people. And today's Ukrainian steppes were inhabited by Alans. When Turks started to migrate into these areas, they replaced these old people's. Replacement occurred whether through intermarriage or domination, we can not clearly say.

 

[AKINCI]

Relax there buddy, no one talked about arabs or anything. By the way, religion wise we are much closer to arabs than to Azarbaijan. Remember Azarbaijan is shia while majority of Arabs are sunni.

Don't try to hide, I know your mentality. Again you have shown at your last sentence. Problem is not being Shia or Sunni problem is the Muslims who see themselves apart from other sects. Already i'm not a Sunni or else there is one religion and there are not any sects.

 

[Killuminati]

Ok dude we heard your point of view.. that Azerbaijanis are "Turkic" people and not "Iranic". Looks like u r mad because Iran supports Armenia and not Azerbaijan... I don't know much about Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict,so I can't comment on that issue. But I have met some Armenians and they are nice people. Azerbaijanis are nice people too

Ofc they are not Iranic/persian -.-

There is around 300/350 milion Turks on the world.

 

[RazPaK]

This thread is retarded. All the youtubers are here. LMAO.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

Don't try to hide, I know your mentality. Again you have shown at your last sentence. Problem is not being Shia or Sunni problem is the Muslims who see themselves apart from other sects. Already i'm not a Sunni or else there is one religion and there are not any sects.

Ok buddy, you have figured me completely out, congrats.

 

[FriendOfPakistan]

"Iran" name did not even exist before Shah decided to rename Persia into Iran.

Wrong ! The term "Empire of Eran" (Iran) or "Eran-Shahr" was used since Sassanid times (224 AD to 651 AD - way before Islam) and a book written during the Sassanid era describes it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Šahrestānīhā_ī_Ērānšahr

The terms Eranshahr () and Eran were in use in Sassanid Iran. From early Sassanid era (Ardashr and Shapur's elaborations), as a designation of their land they adopted Ērānšahr “Empire of the Iranians” and this served as the official name of their country.[3]

It mentions Azarbaijan (Adurbadagan) as one of the core regions of Eranshahr.

According to the book and as an ancient Iranian tradition, Ērānšahr is divided into four "mythologically and mentally"[6] defined regions or sides called "kust"s. These parts/regions/sides of the state during and after Xusrō I, on the pattern of the four cardinal points, are (1) Xwarāsān “northeast”; (2) Xwarwarān “southwest”; (3) Nēmrōz “southeast”; and (4) Ādurbādagān “northwest”.[1]

Any "non-Iranian" land was called An-Iran (non-Iran):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniran

Anīrān or Anērān is an ethno-linguistic term that signifies "non-Iranian" or "non-Iran." Thus, in a general sense, 'Aniran' signifies lands where Iranian languages are not spoken.

 

[FriendOfPakistan]

Can you tell me since when did "Iranic" peoples began to live in Yurts? You cannot assimilate anyone to live in Yurts, you know.

Have you heard of the strawman argument ?
Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It basically means that you change your opponent's view to something else, and then refute that something else, because you have no logical argument to present for what he actually said.

What I said is genetic studies don't show a significant portion of Turkic genes - language is a different issue - and it does not mean that there were no Turkic migrations, and no yurts, but that their numbers were not sufficient to alter the gene pool by a large amount.

There are some truly Turkic people - not just Turkic speaking - in Iran, and they are the Turkmens, who live in the northeast of the Caspian sea. Most of them have Oriental features, like Mongols.

There is no reason to get upset over objective facts. Here is the whole package, again, for both Iran and your republic:

Caucasian origin
Main article: Caucasian origin of the Azerbaijanis
According to Encyclopædia Britannica about Azeris in the Republic of Azerbaijan:

“ The Azerbaijani are of mixed ethnic origin, the oldest element deriving from the indigenous population of eastern Transcaucasia and possibly from the Medians of northern Persia.[92] ”

The Caucasian origin mostly applies to the Azeris of the Caucasus, most of whom are now inhabitants of the Republic of Azerbaijan. There is evidence that, despite repeated invasions and migrations, aboriginal Caucasians may have been culturally assimilated, first by Iranians and later by the Oghuz. Considerable information has been learned about the Caucasian Albanians including their language, history, early conversion to Christianity, and close ties to the Armenians. Many academics believe that the Udi language, still spoken in Azerbaijan, is a remnant of the Albanians' language.[93][94]

This Caucasian influence extended further south into Iranian Azerbaijan. During the 1st millennium BCE, another Caucasian people, the Mannaeans (Mannai) populated much of Iranian Azerbaijan. Weakened by conflicts with the Assyrians, the Mannaeans are believed to have been conquered and assimilated by the Medes by 590 BCE.[95]

Genetics
Some new genetic studies suggest that recent erosion of human population structure might not be as important as previously thought, and overall genetic structure of human populations may not change with the immigration events but in the Azerbaijani case; some Azerbaijanis of Azerbaijan republic genetically resemble other Caucasian people like Kurds and Armenians[96] and people in the Azerbaijan region of Iran to other Iranians.[97]

According to a study of Eurasia's population by the American Society of Human Genetics, the different Iranian populations show a striking degree of homogeneity and nonsignificant FST values among themselves.[98] It seems that the people are largely Iranian settlers both before and after Islam.

2010 genetic study of Andonian et al shows Turkification of this region was predominantly by the process of elite dominance, i.e. by the limited number of invaders who left only weak patrilineal genetic trace in modern populations of the region and not mass migration.[99]

Studies conducted at Cambridge and Stanford Universities
A recent study of the genetic landscape of Iran was completed by a team of Cambridge geneticists led by Dr. Maziar Ashrafian Bonab (an Iranian Azerbaijani).[100] Bonab remarked that his group had done extensive DNA testing on different language groups, including Indo-European and non Indo-European speakers, in Iran.[101] The study found that the Azerbaijanis of Iran do not have a similar FSt and other genetic markers found in Anatolian and European Turks. However, the genetic Fst and other genetic traits like MRca and mtDNA of Iranian Azeris were identical to Persians in Iran.

In 2006 M. Regueiro and A.M. Cadenas of Stanford University show that the population of central Iran (Isfahan) group to Caucasian Azeri people more than population of Turkey in terms of haplogroup distributions and genetic homogeneity.[102]

Studies conducted in the Caucasus


A study in 2011 showed that the Iranian Azaris have much weaker genetic affinity with the populations from Central Asia and the Caucasus than with their immediate geographic neighbors in Iran.[103]
A 2003 study found that: "Y-chromosome haplogroups indicate that Indo-European-speaking Armenians and Turkic-speaking Azerbaijanians (of the Republic of Azerbaijan) are genetically more closely related to their geographic neighbors in the Caucasus than to their linguistic neighbors elsewhere."[104] The authors of this study suggest that this indicates a language replacement of indigenous Caucasian peoples. There is evidence of genetic admixture derived from Central Asians (specifically Haplogroup H12), notably the Turkmen, that is much higher than that of their neighbors, the Georgians and Armenians.[105] MtDNA analysis indicates that the main relationship with Iranians is through a larger West Eurasian group that is secondary to that of the Caucasus, according to a study that did not include Azerbaijanis, but Georgians who have clustered with Azerbaijanis in other studies.[106] The conclusion from the testing shows that the Caucasian Azeris are a mixed population with relationships, in order of greatest similarity, with the Caucasus, Iranians and Near Easterners, Europeans, and Turkmen. Other genetic analysis of mtDNA and Y-chromosomes indicates that Caucasian populations are genetically intermediate between Europeans and Near Easterners, but that they are more closely related to Near Easterners overall.[104] Another study, conducted in 2003 by the Russian Journal of Genetics, links Iranians in Azerbaijan (the Talysh and Tats) with Azerbaijanis of the Republic:

“ the genetic structure of the populations examined with the other Iranian-speaking populations (Persians and Kurds from Iran, Ossetins, and Tajiks) and Azerbaijanis showed that Iranian-speaking populations from Azerbaijan were closer to Azerbaijanis than to Iranian-speaking populations inhabiting other world regions.[107] ”

A 2011 study at Yerevan State University and Tehran University of Medical Sciences shows Azeris have much weaker genetic affinity with the populations from Central Asia and the Caucasus than with their immediate geographic neighbours. Relying on these outcomes one can suggest that language change with regard to Azeris occurred through elite dominance mechanism rather than demographic diffusion model.[103]

 

[FriendOfPakistan]

Some of the tribes or clans that settled in Azerbaijan from Anatolia. Whole tribes.
Karamanlu, Varsaq, Dulkadirlu, Tekeli, Humuslu, Shamlu, Rumlu, Ustaclu, Arapgirlu, Turgudlu, Bozcalu, Acirlu etc...

Look ASQ, I am open to factual discussion. If you can show evidence that entire tribes (numbers?) moved, please present source (from a non-Turk academic, in English). I have no problem with it, if it is true, and interested to know more. The people who live there are who they are, no one can change that.

But once again, the genetic evidence does not support this, which is why I think only some tribal members moved. Or maybe the tribes were really small nomadic bands of a few dozen or hundred people ?

The study found that the Azerbaijanis of Iran do not have a similar FSt and other genetic markers found in Anatolian and European Turks

Heck I even have an Iranian female friend whose father (or grandfather) - a Shiite from Turkey - rode a horse, and ran to the Iranian border from Anatolia, to escape persecution - he was a fighter, and a hothead - and took refuge in Iran, but only he moved (not his family or tribe).

 

[FriendOfPakistan]

Genetic studies and ancient historical sources have nothing to do with Kasravi.

Kasravi himself was a Turkic speaking Azari, who spoke Persian with an accent, and after he studied history, he realized the deeper connections of his people to the land in which they live. He dreamt of bringing them back to their roots.

Regarding all the stuff our dear friend posts from wikipedia, he fails to mention that all of these theories goes back to Ahmad Kasravi, who dedicated his life to "Iranize" Azerbaijani Turks.

 

[FriendOfPakistan]

Why did the Muslim Turkic speaking northern Khanates turn again the Qajar and the Azarbaijani southern Khanates, preferring the Russians instead (I can understand why Armenians and Georgians would) ???

Russians did not steal any territority from Qajars, the Khanates (northern ones) that were at war with Qajars requested asistance from Russian Tsar, and in turn accepted to be vassals of the Russian empire. The treaties between the Russian and Qajar empires after the war were not saying that Qajars would give territorities north of Araxes to Russia (and how can you give something you don't have), but that Qajars would recognize the Russian vassalage over Khanates north of Araxes. And only in 1850, did Russian Tsar abolished the Khanates and annexted them into Russian Empire.

The Southern Khanates did not, and that is the reason why they became a part of Iran.

Also:


Yaqut al-Hamawi (d. 1229), a Syrian born geographer is famous for his geography bible Mu'jam Al-Buldan. He states:

“ According to Hamza 'Isfahan, Pahlavi (Middle Persian) ..is the language of the district of Fahlah. And Fahlah is composed of Esfahan, Ray, Hamadan, Mah Nahavand and Azerbaijan...Arran is a Persian name and is a wide land with many cities and one of its cities is Janza which people there call Ganja. Barda' and Shamkur and Beylaghan are its other cities. Between Azerbaijan and Aran there is a river which is called Aras. The region to the North and West of this river is Aran, and whatever lies to its south is Azerbaijan.
...Azar means fire in Pahlavi and Baykan means protector and holder. Thus the name means house of fire or protector of the fire. The boundaries of Azerbaijan is from Barda' to the east to Arzanjan to the west and to south, its boundaries are the lands of Deylam, Gilan and Tarom. And Azerbaijan is a wide and expansive land and its most famous city is Tabriz which is its center and most important city. Before that, its center was Maragheh. Among its cities are Khoy, Salmas, Urmia, Ardabil, Marand, and others.[27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Azerbaijan/workpage

 

[FriendOfPakistan]

Here we have well-informed and intelligent Turkish member who realizes that even Turkish people are not really Turkic genetically (only 3%) but only linguistically.

Same goes with Azarbaijanis ... who are Turkic speaking but not genetically Turkic ... and this not an opinion, but a scientifically validated fact established by genetic studies.

I don't understand why this thread has gone so far? It is obvious that even today's Turks are ethnically Anatolian people and not migrated from Central Asia. Genetically the pool of Turkish population that have DNA stemming from around the Altai Mountains (Central Asia) is lesser than 3 percent. That makes perfect sense, since Anatolian people changed their religion with Seljuk Turks conquering their lands and other Turkish beyliks and "emirates".