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Turk Mobs attack Chinese restaurants in Istanbul and beat up Uighur and Turkmen employees

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So a Right Wing group represents all of Turks? Really?

I question myself what kind of right groub does not know the difference between Turk and chinese... the place is a symbolic place.. so maybe its not right groub it could be leftist groub like this one..

American Sailors Assaulted By Turkish Youths in Istanbul: Navy - NBC News

are you serious?

there are many many non turks in turkey thats true the problem is that we call everything with turkish paper turk.. so we should say Türkiyeli or we should start to say what we are in reality turkmen turks of turkey..

many of these paper turks know where they came from and they dont see turkmen as a good thing..

to no real Turk

o_O bullshit.. by the same logic we could say most kurds are no kurds they are lost arabs.. germans are not german.. only japanese are mostly japanese

@TaiShang you found the best person with the best knowlege about turkey... maybe you both could start a monologue but pls start a new threat for this... call it like rmi' & taishang's wisdoms
 
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@TaiShang you found the best person with the best knowlege about turkey... maybe you both could start a monologue but pls start a new threat for this... call it like rmi' & taishang's wisdoms

@Lure is a wise member, either. He seems to understand the threat of religio- and ethnic fascism and the wisdom of secularism.

I am engaged in a conversation with @rmi5 for the first time, perhaps.

What I do not agree with Lure is that he seems to ascribe the blind hatred among masses to nationalism while I argue it is due to a dangerous mixture of nationalism and religiosity that is politicized. Your own national founder in fact cautioned you against those that might use religion for their own ends. He did not closed down madrassas and liberalized women for no reason.

But currently, just as military US' best diplomacy tool, sect-based religious solidarity is the best tool Turkey's diplomacy has. The present government has been using up the gains of the past, but it won't last forever. Once the tide turns against the radicalization of the Middle East for one reason or another, your leadership might as well be classified with the likes of Omar al-Bashir or many Muslim Brotherhood fugitives that are nestled in your country right now.

Too much hatred can blind vision. Right now half of your country might be riled up under a nostalgia of the glorious past, but, at the end of the day, you are weaker than you were a decade ago. Even sentimentalism over Uighurs won't change reality for you.
 
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@Lure is a wise member, either. He seems to understand the threat of religio- and ethnic fascism and the wisdom of secularism.

I am engaged in a conversation with @rmi5 for the first time, perhaps.

What I do not agree with Lure is that he seems to ascribe the blind hatred among masses to nationalism while I argue it is due to a dangerous mixture of nationalism and religiosity that is politicized. Your own national founder in fact cautioned you against those that might use religion for their own ends. He did not closed down madrassas and liberalized women for no reason.

But currently, just as military US' best diplomacy tool, sect-based religious solidarity is the best tool Turkey's diplomacy has. The present government has been using up the gains of the past, but it won't last forever. Once the tide turns against the radicalization of the Middle East for one reason or another, your leadership might as well be classified with the likes of Omar al-Bashir or many Muslim Brotherhood fugitives that are nestled in your country right now.

Too much hatred can blind vision. Right now half of your country might be riled up under a nostalgia of the glorious past, but, at the end of the day, you are weaker than you were a decade ago. Even sentimentalism over Uighurs won't change reality for you.
How come you know so much about Turkiye?
 
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You just made a lot of Turks angry, I guess.



Turkey's political situation is understandably tough at the moment, and I agree with you about that. It is not just internal problems (the Kurdish problem, economy, sectarian tension etc) but also regional problems, that is, "the strategic depth" which has left Turkey with no representation in four neighboring countries.

The past decade is an epic failure, as I see.

And it is also understandable that, given the circumstances, the AKP trolls would flood the social media with fake stories and cooked up images about China's XinJiang. There is a dedicated group of people doing that, understandably, and they appear to be extremely radicalized. Is it because of years of religious education and being indoctrinated with certain Hadiths? Or is it because of the culminated hatred toward the secular Republic over the past seven something decade? As I read the international press, they see a guy hung up on a rope anytime somebody criticizes Erdogan.

Apparently, the desire to mingle ethnic fascism with religious fascism is just too tempting given the circumstances. The dream team from this would be a coalition hell bent over Kurds at home and over Syrians abroad. They will, for that reason, do everything they can to achieve this goal.

These people are really no threat to us. It must be secular Turks (especially Alawites and leftists) that should be worried about this rising Islamization and ethnic fascism. Some guy opening up four thread on a unanimous forum is worthless. This will only make the PDF higher-ups happier because of increased traffic. But, it is only concerning with respect to reflecting the psyche of the people (well, at least 50% of it) in Turkey.

Ranting on PDF will leave no remark but mobilizing foreign ministry for the issue and attacking innocent Chinese tourists will definitely have some implications for long term. Do not anticipate Chinese leadership to behave like Erdogan. Erdogan has the fish's memory and treats its subjects like that as well; but the Chinese state has a very long memory.

I wish there was a secular government to undo everything Erdogan and his men destroyed, including the foreign policy, but that chance seems to be missed. The good will is only out of my respect toward the founder of the country, a true revolutionist.
@Lure is a wise member, either. He seems to understand the threat of religio- and ethnic fascism and the wisdom of secularism.

I am engaged in a conversation with @rmi5 for the first time, perhaps.

What I do not agree with Lure is that he seems to ascribe the blind hatred among masses to nationalism while I argue it is due to a dangerous mixture of nationalism and religiosity that is politicized. Your own national founder in fact cautioned you against those that might use religion for their own ends. He did not closed down madrassas and liberalized women for no reason.

But currently, just as military US' best diplomacy tool, sect-based religious solidarity is the best tool Turkey's diplomacy has. The present government has been using up the gains of the past, but it won't last forever. Once the tide turns against the radicalization of the Middle East for one reason or another, your leadership might as well be classified with the likes of Omar al-Bashir or many Muslim Brotherhood fugitives that are nestled in your country right now.

Too much hatred can blind vision. Right now half of your country might be riled up under a nostalgia of the glorious past, but, at the end of the day, you are weaker than you were a decade ago. Even sentimentalism over Uighurs won't change reality for you.

You are exactly right. I think we also talked once about Arab world affairs some long time ago, as well.
The religion factor is very important as you mentioned. Knowing muslims' mentalities is very important. Muslims are not grown up in a way to learn to use their brains and think practically about life, rather they are grown up to follow the orders. That's why they are on average emotional, brutal, and living in dream worlds. Their governments though, know their mentalities, and can play their people easily. add that to the fact that islam was initiated as a political cause and political party than as a religion, and the amount of hatred that islam expresses about non-muslims. It means that political islam can easily be a fascistic cause that millions of muslim hordes follow it eagerly. The more one chants islam, and the more one is brutal, and extremist, people will follow him more. That's how Muslim Brother has achieved huge supports in all muslim world from Turkey(AKP) to Egypt(Mursi), ... That's how other extremists have achieved support in other muslim countries.
From muslims' point of view, Chinese are some Kafir(infidel Communists) who are now exposed to be oppressing innocent burqa wearing Uyghurs. This one sentence is enough to flip muslims. Then, some statements regarding this issue will be made by their politicians to gain public support that was decreased because their politicians did screw up everything starting from their economy. When politicians gained control of power, then they will change the propaganda to how evil jews(Israel), and west are, so they need dear China to boost the economy and buy arms. the public will then follow the new propaganda like sheeples. That's how politics truly works in many muslim countries.
Founding fathers of Turkey wanted turkey to become a secular country, but they simply failed. Current day Turkey has been the capital of islamofascism(caliphate) for centuries, and some of the methods that founders of Turkey used to secularize the society, were wrong; Hence, we see islamofascism gaining power openly for one more time in Turkey.
 
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The name "Turk" is the problem here.

In our nation, there is very little to no real Turk. Our nation is made up by nations around the region, a mixed nation of nations around Anatolia:

AnatolieLimits.jpg

Anatolia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Turkish (Anatolian) nation is made up mainly by Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Pontus, Azeris, Russians, Lazes, Cherkes, Kurds, Arabs, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, etc, etc..

A nation that has been living in Anatolia for more than tens of thousands of years, with a fully mixed and integrated culture, Anatolian Culture.

DNA researches show that there is like 0% real Turk in our country. And the little amount lately came to Turkey for economic reasons, just like they go to USA, Germany etc also for economic reasons.

We are not Turkic, we are Anatolian.
It's not 0%, but it's a very small number. Anyway, almost the same thing exists about many arab countries. Real Arabs are Saudis, Yemenites and golfies. Rest of Arabs, from Iraq to morocco, are semitic people who were arabized by Arabs. That's why an Arab from Iraq and Syria is most probably racially more close to Jews, Turks, and Persians than Saudis. The same thing is true for Anatolians who were Turkified by oghuz tribes. In both cases, being Turkic and Arabic is more about language, and partially about culture than about race.
 
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Its the opportunity thread for Turk haters...

for the blind haters.. for the ones who are just searching for some hate reasons.. with this you can combine many hate topics in one like make it right turks make right secular turks make it right religios turks make it what you want ;)

you can say what you want nobody would listen..
 
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for the blind haters.. for the ones who are just searching for some hate reasons.. with this you can combine many hate topics in one like make it right turks make right secular turks make it right religios turks make it what you want ;)

you can say what you want nobody would listen..
Who cares about their ignorance, we wouldnt be the top 6 tourist destination with one of the fastest growing tourist numbers annually if Turkey was such a dangerous place for foreigners, boo hoo evil Turks. :o:


650px-World%E2%80%99s_Top_10_Tourism_Destinations.png


World Tourism rankings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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It's not 0%, but it's a very small number. Anyway, almost the same thing exists about many arab countries. Real Arabs are Saudis, Yemenites and golfies. Rest of Arabs, from Iraq to morocco, are semitic people who were arabized by Arabs. That's why an Arab from Iraq and Syria is most probably racially more close to Jews, Turks, and Persians than Saudis. The same thing is true for Anatolians who were Turkified by oghuz tribes. In both cases, being Turkic and Arabic is more about language, and partially about culture than about race.

You are making it hard for me to not get involved in a debate with you.

This post of yours is what Greeks were using as argument when I simply asked them how come Greeks in Greece and the ones immigrated into Greece today and then speak their native language like Arabs, Bulgarians etc.

Turkification is a Word, but you use it as if You know Ottoman population, cultures policies in the empire.

The last Word is There is no Turkification as you claimed in no inch of the Emire.
 
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You are making it hard for me to not get involved in a debate with you.

This post of yours is what Greeks were using as argument when I simply asked them how come Greeks in Greece and the ones immigrated into Greece today and then speak their native language like Arabs, Bulgarians etc.

Turkification is a Word, but you use it as if You know Ottoman population, cultures policies in the empire.

The last Word is There is no Turkification as you claimed in no inch of the Emire.

No one has forced you to talk here.
I don't care who says what(Neither you nor Greeks), and I just look for scientific facts and historical documents.
Genetics is science and there is no BS in it. Educate yourself about genetics, and do your own search to find out where your people are truly from. Then you can easily find out whether you are genetically more close to kurds and Greeks or to people of Central Asia, and West China.
 
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How come you know so much about Turkiye?

Research during MA -- from US foreign policy perspective. My thesis adviser could speak 7 languages, including Arabic, Persian, Kurdish and Turkish. I also studied major revolutionaries of the early 20th century who includes your founder.

I have professional connections with several Middle Eastern countries, including Turkey.

The religion factor is very important as you mentioned. Knowing muslims' mentalities is very important. Muslims are not grown up in a way to learn to use their brains and think practically about life, rather they are grown up to follow the orders. That's why they are on average emotional, brutal, and living in dream worlds. Their governments though, know their mentalities, and can play their people easily. add that to the fact that islam was initiated as a political cause and political party than as a religion, and the amount of hatred that islam expresses about non-muslims. It means that political islam can easily be a fascistic cause that millions of muslim hordes follow it eagerly. The more one chants islam, and the more one is brutal, and extremist, people will follow him more. That's how Muslim Brother has achieved huge supports in all muslim world from Turkey(AKP) to Egypt(Mursi), ... That's how other extremists have achieved support in other muslim countries.

Religion per se might not be conducive to violence any more than belief in nothing, I guess. But I agree that Islam has been politicized as soon as it started to bring about power. That's in a sense unavoidable for a teaching that, according to its hardliner advocates, should control and regulate every aspect of your life, from public to the most private. Once religion becomes embedded with political power, or rather, a source of political power and legitimacy (Middle Age papal-ism or the Khalifa doctrine), then, it is bound to become expansionist, brutal and inflexible.

Turkey's Islamists have discovered something that Levant Islamists such as those in Egypt (Muslim Brotherhood) had discovered long ago: When you suffer from legitimation crisis or seek avoidance from corruption, just employ a rhetoric laden with religious references. Along with this comes hatred toward anything that is alien (irreligious): women (By nature, man and woman is not equal), LGTB, Armenians (Did not the Turkish president say: "They even called me, pardon my language, an Armenian"?), Jews, Alawits, Kurds, and even other secular Turks and now maybe Asian looking foreigners. Then religion becomes a political tool and a tool of oppression and regulating peoples' lifes.

I would ascribe this to a lack of secular experience in the traditional Middle East. Turkey went through a reformation but, apparently, that was not deeply ingrained and hence, the clock started to tick backwards again during the past decade. Compared to other Islamic countries in the region, Turkey fares well thanks to the ingrained secularism, but, the trend is towards a serious erosion of these gains as the people seem to be over-radicalized. There seems to be a whole system backing up the new Islamic bourgeoisie from fashion to media and universities. Of course, foreign policy is always an extension of domestic policy. When domestic policy becomes fractionist, it will reflect on foreign policy as sectarianism.

From muslims' point of view, Chinese are some Kafir(infidel Communists) who are now exposed to be oppressing innocent burqa wearing Uyghurs. This one sentence is enough to flip muslims. Then, some statements regarding this issue will be made by their politicians to gain public support that was decreased because their politicians did screw up everything starting from their economy. When politicians gained control of power, then they will change the propaganda to how evil jews(Israel), and west are, so they need dear China to boost the economy and buy arms. the public will then follow the new propaganda like sheeples. That's how politics truly works in many muslim countries.

I read about the Communist bogeyman -- not in Turkey, probably across the Arabic world -- since I consider myself a student of Marxist thought. Islamists in Turkey kept whining about being persecuted by the Kemalist republic while the reality was that it was the Leftists and Marxists that were almost completely eradicated. The Left that is 'left" is a poor copy of Collectivist politics. There is this over Islamic "sensitivity." And with the present government (Justice and Development), Islam has been politicized and commercialized to historic levels. Even those that used to have more moderate life style apparently adopted the discourse because it promised wealth and status. This is exactly how fascism took hold in Germany. And Hitler always had the upper hand and popular supper in elections. I agree that Islamic parties might tell one thing to their people and do another in real life: Like even growing trade between Israel and Turkey after the maritime shooting. Islamism is not necessarily about becoming a better Muslim, or a better person. Islamism is about holding onto power at all cost and manipulating the masses. That's a dangerous ideology.

Founding fathers of Turkey wanted turkey to become a secular country, but they simply failed. Current day Turkey has been the capital of islamofascism(caliphate) for centuries, and some of the methods that founders of Turkey used to secularize the society, were wrong; Hence, we see islamofascism gaining power openly for one more time in Turkey.

That's unfortunate for the country. At least a sizable portion of the country that define themselves as secular. Their country, their rule, their life. I am not to judge about this. What would concern me the implications on foreign policy, such as Syria or XinJiang. That's where my real interest is in. In this respect, personally, Turkey has little to no relevance in China's most strategic-geopolitical calculations. The two countries are not simply in the same league. I guess those who run for the top in the Premier League would have little time to worry about the goings-on in the amateur league. That's just hard (statistical) reality.
 
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No one has forced you to talk here.
I don't care who says what(Neither you nor Greeks), and I just look for scientific facts and historical documents.
Genetics is science and there is no BS in it. Educate yourself about genetics, and do your own search to find out where your people are truly from. Then you can easily find out whether you are genetically more close to kurds and Greeks or to people of Central Asia, and West China.

You are in a self-contradiction mode right now.

There is no official and proven research about genetics, so you cannot post them. that is why when you claimed and used Turkification, you could not post any fact, or research data.

Also when you used Turkification, You alse should have posted Ottoman population and culture policies in order to back up your claim; however, you yet again failed to do so. You either do not know, or know the demise of your ''argument''.

This is not the right place for such discussions, however, I see the last argumen/hope for people in desperate conditions in failing positions in a debate always sticks to this ''argument'' of yours.
 
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Research during MA -- from US foreign policy perspective. My thesis adviser could speak 7 languages, including Arabic, Persian, Kurdish and Turkish. I also studied major revolutionaries of the early 20th century who includes your founder.

I have professional connections with several Middle Eastern countries, including Turkey.
Then you must also know that Erdogans time is almost over,Turkiye had enough of him and his religous politcs.
New elections will bring ''new'' players and hopefully will turn the country secular again.
 
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Research during MA -- from US foreign policy perspective. My thesis adviser could speak 7 languages, including Arabic, Persian, Kurdish and Turkish. I also studied major revolutionaries of the early 20th century who includes your founder.

I have professional connections with several Middle Eastern countries, including Turkey.



Religion per se might not be conducive to violence any more than belief in nothing, I guess. But I agree that Islam has been politicized as soon as it started to bring about power. That's in a sense unavoidable for a teaching that, according to its hardliner advocates, should control and regulate every aspect of your life, from public to the most private. Once religion becomes embedded with political power, or rather, a source of political power and legitimacy (Middle Age papal-ism or the Khalifa doctrine), then, it is bound to become expansionist, brutal and inflexible.

Turkey's Islamists have discovered something that Levant Islamists such as those in Egypt (Muslim Brotherhood) had discovered long ago: When you suffer from legitimation crisis or seek avoidance from corruption, just employ a rhetoric laden with religious references. Along with this comes hatred toward anything that is alien (irreligious): women (By nature, man and woman is not equal), LGTB, Armenians (Did not the Turkish president say: "They even called me, pardon my language, an Armenian"?), Jews, Alawits, Kurds, and even other secular Turks and now maybe Asian looking foreigners. Then religion becomes a political tool and a tool of oppression and regulating peoples' lifes.

I would ascribe this to a lack of secular experience in the traditional Middle East. Turkey went through a reformation but, apparently, that was not deeply ingrained and hence, the clock started to tick backwards again during the past decade. Compared to other Islamic countries in the region, Turkey fares well thanks to the ingrained secularism, but, the trend is towards a serious erosion of these gains as the people seem to be over-radicalized. There seems to be a whole system backing up the new Islamic bourgeoisie from fashion to media and universities. Of course, foreign policy is always an extension of domestic policy. When domestic policy becomes fractionist, it will reflect on foreign policy as sectarianism.



I read about the Communist bogeyman -- not in Turkey, probably across the Arabic world -- since I consider myself a student of Marxist thought. Islamists in Turkey kept whining about being persecuted by the Kemalist republic while the reality was that it was the Leftists and Marxists that were almost completely eradicated. The Left that is 'left" is a poor copy of Collectivist politics. There is this over Islamic "sensitivity." And with the present government (Justice and Development), Islam has been politicized and commercialized to historic levels. Even those that used to have more moderate life style apparently adopted the discourse because it promised wealth and status. This is exactly how fascism took hold in Germany. And Hitler always had the upper hand and popular supper in elections. I agree that Islamic parties might tell one thing to their people and do another in real life: Like even growing trade between Israel and Turkey after the maritime shooting. Islamism is not necessarily about becoming a better Muslim, or a better person. Islamism is about holding onto power at all cost and manipulating the masses. That's a dangerous ideology.



That's unfortunate for the country. At least a sizable portion of the country that define themselves as secular. Their country, their rule, their life. I am not to judge about this. What would concern me the implications on foreign policy, such as Syria or XinJiang. That's where my real interest is in. In this respect, personally, Turkey has little to no relevance in China's most strategic-geopolitical calculations. The two countries are not simply in the same league. I guess those who run for the top in the Premier League would have little time to worry about the goings-on in the amateur league. That's just hard (statistical) reality.

One of the most knowledgeable/interesting post i have seem on here for a longggg time now. You specislised in Turkey/middle eastern studies during your MA? Cuz u seem to bd quite knowleageable in these area. :tup:

Then you must also know that Erdogans time is almost over,Turkiye had enough of him and his religous politcs.
New elections will bring ''new'' players and hopefully will turn the country secular again.

To be honest, i dont think Erdogans time is over at all.
 
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