TTP extends ceasefire till May 30 after 'successful' talks

lastofthepatriots · May 24, 2022

@araz

Why the negative rating?

hussain0216 · May 24, 2022

The problem with the TTP is very simple

TTP= Pashtuns

Thousands of dead TTP fighters =thousands of dead Pashtuns

It's what's stopping us from just bombing the shit out of them like crazy

lastofthepatriots · May 24, 2022

hussain0216 said:
The problem with the TTP is very simple

TTP= Pashtuns

Thousands of dead TTP fighters =thousands of dead Pashtuns

It's what's stopping us from just bombing the shit out of them like crazy

TTP has killed a lot of Pashtuns.

And look at beghairat bajwa negotiating with perpetrators of APS massacre. If he’s willing to do that, then he is capable of anything including ordering a contract killing through TTP of IK.

Hyde · May 24, 2022

First and first, please forgive me if I come across as harsh, but after witnessing countless explosions across Pakistan, I am completely opposed to any cooperation with the Taliban. I despise them more than our natural enemy like India, therefore please accept my apologies if my post offends you.

I don't intend to continue debate on this issue for too long as I can be easily biased when it comes to my hatred towards the Talibaboons.

araz said:
D. Negotiate.
So the next question is what does one negotiate for??
I think the negotiations will progress on the following lines.
1. An assurance there will be no firing cross border. In short cross border peace

The problem is that the Afghan Taliban are divided into several groups, and not everyone obeys each other's orders. They began working independently following the American invasion, and despite having a government in Afghanistan, they continue to suffer bloodshed and acts of terrorism since they are not a united force. How can they ensure that cross-border terrorism will stop if they can't even unite among themselves?

Taliban, in my opinion, is not a legitimate government, it's just a bunch of people who hijacked the entire system with guns and firepower. I don't believe it's possible and the Afghan Taliban are not in a position to provide such assurances.

araz said:
2. The fence will be completed . The elephant in the room has been hidden amongst all the leniency. Our failure has always been not in waging war against these insurgents but in preventing their retreat and regrouping. If the US had helped us in the first operation we would have been rid of this nuisance once and for all.

The fence is nearly finished, and it will only serve to reduce terrorism. We have not prevented an influx of Afghans from crossing the border, and the Taliban and other terrorist groups operating in Afghanistan are known to readily blend in with locals. As a result, the fence will merely aid in the large influx of terrorists rather than entirely eliminating it.

I agree if the US helped us in the first operation, we could have prevented the death of thousands of people across Pakistan.

araz said:
3. 6-8 designated areas for cross border barter trade

I agree. I am not opposed to commercial links with Afghanistan

araz said:
4. The Taliban will be the guarantors of this peace and Pakistan will continue to support the government in exchange.

The word Taliban and peace don't really go with each other but I believe you.

In my opinion, the Taliban are divided into various groups and shuras, and they battle among themselves on a regular basis in their pursuit of dominance. They also face numerous adversaries within Afghanistan's borders, including ISIS, Afghan resistance forces, the previous government, the general people, and outside players like America and NATO. It's essentially the Taliban vs the rest of the world. In my opinion, they are not in a position to guarantee anything but I take your words for now as they are the ruling government until it lasts.

PS: I wouldn't be surprised if their prime minister is assassinated tomorrow by their own terrorist ministers, followed by the assassination of another minister by a different gang, wreaking havoc on the entire system in a matter of days. Then this negotiation will be back to square one again.

araz said:
5. No other nation will be allowed to fuse Afghan soil for cross border terrorism in Pakistan. Similar arrangements from Pakistan side.

I hope so

araz said:
6. Means of how cross border activities will be dealt with by both sides.

We both know that since our independence, the Afghans have never truly accepted us. They start wailing about the Durand Line if Afghanistan becomes stable. When they start shedding blood, they blame Pakistan. There is no quick fix for their problems, and I don't see a day coming anytime soon when forces from both countries can work together to combat cross-border activity.

araz said:
7. Release of prisoners. THESE WILL BE HANDED OVER AT THE PAK AFGHAN BORDER and will take and oathNEVER to return to Pakistan/ indulge in war against Pakistan. If they are found in Pakistan they will be shot on sight.

I am convinced that once the Taliban prisoners are released, they will return to Pakistan and resume their brand of Islamism. You are always corrupted once you have been corrupted. They will be back in Pakistan and human rights will eat you alive if the Army started shooting them on sight. If they were going to take such measures they could have done it in the first place.

araz said:
8. Release of families of fighters and allowing/facilitating their safe transit into Afghanistan NEVER to return to Pakistan.

Dil ko behalne ke liye Ghalib ye khayal acha hai

araz said:
9. Development of roads and highways so central Asia gets connected to CPEC highways to initiate trade. Similarly agreement on setting up gas pipelines for transit of gas to Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The Taliban wants Afghanistan to grow. There can be no doubt about it, and we must work to create motorways connecting Pakistan to Kazakhstan via Afghanistan and Uzbekistan, as well as another highway to Tajikistan. I agree that we must import gas from CAS countries through Afghanistan, but the sad reality is that Pakistan is unable to pay for such a project, and global investors are wary of investing in a project with Afghanistan. In the next 10 years or so, I envision such a possibility.

araz said:
10. Steps to allow the Chinese to set up agro zones making Afghanistan independent of outside help for food. I am sure this can be done and should be done to allow the Afghans to grow their own food. This maybe a 5-10 year plan but food independence decreases pressures on Pakistan to support them. Areas around River Kabul can be used for this purpose.

pehle Pakistan to ho jaye independent phir Afghanistan ka sochain ge

Peace - Salaam

hussain0216 · May 24, 2022

lastofthepatriots said:
TTP has killed a lot of Pashtuns.

And look at beghairat bajwa negotiating with perpetrators of APS massacre. If he’s willing to do that, then he is capable of anything including ordering a contract killing through TTP of IK.

Sure but it doesn't matter, the problem in the Pakistan side can be contained

The afghan side however is a mess, and what's guiding them isn't religion it's ethnocentric lar aur bar-ism

So what do we do???? Bomb them repeatedly with massive weapon's?

We could and we we would succeed

The problem like always would be that magically the dead TTP fighters would transform into innocent Pashtuns targeted by Pakistan

Then starts the hungama is ANP, PTM and NDM etc

You can't fix this stupidity and jahilat

We can target them in Pakistan but Afghanistan will always be a mess

araz · May 24, 2022

lastofthepatriots said:
@araz

Why the negative rating?

Please stick to the topic at hand and dont use this thread for your rants. Post a relevant post within 24 hours without maligning the army chief and I promise I will remove my rating. You are all my younger brothers and it genuinely hurts me to negatively rate you. I have issues with the decisions of the senior command but there is a time and place to vent it. This is not the thread for it. I hope you will see where I am coming from.
Kind regards
A

lastofthepatriots said:
TTP has killed a lot of Pashtuns.

And look at beghairat bajwa negotiating with perpetrators of APS massacre. If he’s willing to do that, then he is capable of anything including ordering a contract killing through TTP of IK.

Please read my post to understand what the thinking in the army maybe and why this course is being persued. There is no beghairty in resolving differences as I sincerely think there is no offensive war like solution to the problem. This is a necessity to reduce the unnecessary loss of life on our western border so we fan concentrate on the Eastern side.
A

araz · May 24, 2022

Zaki said:
First and first, please forgive me if I come across as harsh, but after witnessing countless explosions across Pakistan, I am completely opposed to any cooperation with the Taliban. I despise them more than our natural enemy like India, therefore please accept my apologies if my post offends you.

I don't intend to continue debate on this issue for too long as I can be easily biased when it comes to my hatred towards the Talibaboons.

The problem is that the Afghan Taliban are divided into several groups, and not everyone obeys each other's orders. They began working independently following the American invasion, and despite having a government in Afghanistan, they continue to suffer bloodshed and acts of terrorism since they are not a united force. How can they ensure that cross-border terrorism will stop if they can't even unite among themselves?

Taliban, in my opinion, is not a legitimate government, it's just a bunch of people who hijacked the entire system with guns and firepower. I don't believe it's possible and the Afghan Taliban are not in a position to provide such assurances.

The fence is nearly finished, and it will only serve to reduce terrorism. We have not prevented an influx of Afghans from crossing the border, and the Taliban and other terrorist groups operating in Afghanistan are known to readily blend in with locals. As a result, the fence will merely aid in the large influx of terrorists rather than entirely eliminating it.

I agree if the US helped us in the first operation, we could have prevented the death of thousands of people across Pakistan.

I agree. I am not opposed to commercial links with Afghanistan

The word Taliban and peace don't really go with each other but I believe you.

In my opinion, the Taliban are divided into various groups and shuras, and they battle among themselves on a regular basis in their pursuit of dominance. They also face numerous adversaries within Afghanistan's borders, including ISIS, Afghan resistance forces, the previous government, the general people, and outside players like America and NATO. It's essentially the Taliban vs the rest of the world. In my opinion, they are not in a position to guarantee anything but I take your words for now as they are the ruling government until it lasts.

PS: I wouldn't be surprised if their prime minister is assassinated tomorrow by their own terrorist ministers, followed by the assassination of another minister by a different gang, wreaking havoc on the entire system in a matter of days. Then this negotiation will be back to square one again.

I hope so

We both know that since our independence, the Afghans have never truly accepted us. They start wailing about the Durand Line if Afghanistan becomes stable. When they start shedding blood, they blame Pakistan. There is no quick fix for their problems, and I don't see a day coming anytime soon when forces from both countries can work together to combat cross-border activity.

I am convinced that once the Taliban prisoners are released, they will return to Pakistan and resume their brand of Islamism. You are always corrupted once you have been corrupted. They will be back in Pakistan and human rights will eat you alive if the Army started shooting them on sight. If they were going to take such measures they could have done it in the first place.

Dil ko behalne ke liye Ghalib ye khayal acha hai

The Taliban wants Afghanistan to grow. There can be no doubt about it, and we must work to create motorways connecting Pakistan to Kazakhstan via Afghanistan and Uzbekistan, as well as another highway to Tajikistan. I agree that we must import gas from CAS countries through Afghanistan, but the sad reality is that Pakistan is unable to pay for such a project, and global investors are wary of investing in a project with Afghanistan. In the next 10 years or so, I envision such a possibility.

pehle Pakistan to ho jaye independent phir Afghanistan ka sochain ge

Peace - Salaam

Dear Zaki.
There is nothing to apologize about. You have every right to hold an opinion and I respect that. I understand your feelings after witnessing such a massive loss and carnage. The problem remains that there is no solution other than renegotiation. We cannot go on killing our own irrespective of how deviant they are till we have exhausted all avenues of peace. There is simply no martial solution to this issue.
The issue of lack of cohesion amongst the Taliban stems from their tribal origins and their independent nature. Unfortunately Mullah Umer was not allowed to form a nation even though he managed to exert control no matter how fickle. The difference today is that there is no Northern Alliance and Taliban control the whole of Afghanistan. To form a nation out of a rag tag malitia like the Talibans is not going to be easy but needs to be supported. The reasons are simply ones which will effect us if there is anarchy resulting in mass migration and further pressures on Pakistan.
Regarding their internal struggles they have held together so far under trying times so one can only hope for the best.
The Durand line dispute has everything to do with the way the Afghan economy is supported. They have always relied on smuggling to support themselves. With a fence in place they see their livelihood going away which is why they are winging. The fence is the most important part of this whole arrangement and will contain the problem of cross border migration/smuggling/running. There is a need for cross border biometric setup so known criminals are not allowed back in. There will be the odd times when this will fail but at least major group migration will be avoided.
Regarding access to Central Asia, China and Russia were both willing to carry out the project even in these circumstances. However we need to resolve our differences and explain the value to Taliban for them to understand why they stand to gain from friendship with Pakistan.
You are absolutely right that Pakistan needs to adopt an independent foreign policy. This will happen inshaa Allah sooner or later.
A

Sayfullah · May 25, 2022

araz said:
You are incorrect on multiple counts.
The dynamics of the US and our war were different but the outcomes will be the same if we do not realize what the issues are.
The US MO was to clear an area and employ their own goons to rule it. It did not work as you replaced one sets of goons with another. All the first lot did was to move out of the area,regroup and make opportunist hits. The US goons just collected as much money and ammo as they could and at the crunch time deserted their posts and left for their lands with their loot.
The PA cleared the lands only as the migration of Taliban began with the announcement of intended operation.They were provided with an exit route (I am sure this was intentional as the US was not cooperating with us). We then evacuated the populace and scorched the earth followed by clearance of the rag tag left behind and resettlement and rebuilding. However as can be seen the operation remains incomplete. Now join the chains of the current set of negotiations and you will see what the PA is trying to do.
Explore your options NOW.
A. Take the war into Afghanistan which will increase the hatred against Pakistan and result in cross border terrorism. The Pathan tradition is to take revenge so each shooting results in 5 more desperadoes willing to sacrifice their lives to take revenge on the PA.
B. Stop food supplies to Afghanistan and demand handing over of the TTP who can be shot as they are handed over. This creates a mammoth headache on the narrative front as the world and their aunts will cry out about racial hatred, persecution, lack of trial etc. Plus the revenge factor.
C. Nuke Afghanistan into oblivion, and take over the 60km corridor to connect to the central asian countries. IN SHORT THIS WOULD BE MADNESS.
D. Negotiate.
So the next question is what does one negotiate for??
I think the negotiations will progress on the following lines.
1. An assurance there will be no firing cross border. In short cross border peace
2. The fence will be completed . The elephant in the room has been hidden amongst all the leniency. Our failure has always been not in waging war against these insurgents but in preventing their retreat and regrouping. If the US had helped us in the first operation we would have been rid of this nuisance once and for all.
3. 6-8 designated areas for cross border barter trade
4. The Taliban will be the guarantors of this peace and Pakistan will continue to support the government in exchange.
5. No other nation will be allowed to fuse Afghan soil for cross border terrorism in Pakistan. Similar arrangements from Pakistan side.
6. Means of how cross border activities will be dealt with by both sides.
7. Release of prisoners. THESE WILL BE HANDED OVER AT THE PAK AFGHAN BORDER and will take and oathNEVER to return to Pakistan/ indulge in war against Pakistan. If they are found in Pakistan they will be shot on sight.
8. Release of families of fighters and allowing/facilitating their safe transit into Afghanistan NEVER to return to Pakistan.
9. Development of roads and highways so central Asia gets connected to CPEC highways to initiate trade. Similarly agreement on setting up gas pipelines for transit of gas to Afghanistan and Pakistan.
10. Steps to allow the Chinese to set up agro zones making Afghanistan independent of outside help for food. I am sure this can be done and should be done to allow the Afghans to grow their own food. This maybe a 5-10 year plan but food independence decreases pressures on Pakistan to support them. Areas around River Kabul can be used for this purpose.

A

Or:
Build a counter narrative against ttp that actually works!
Secularism or nationalism was never going to work against ttp’s narrative. Our narrative from day 1 should have been ttp is khawarij and we are eliminating khawarij. Every madressa and school in tribal areas should have been made to teach about khawarij and how their enemies of Islam. Every child in tribal areas should have been educated about khawarijites. Ttp is loosely united militia mercenary, if we played our cards right we could have kept them fighting each other. When fazlullah was ttp emir since he was a non Mehsud ttp was basically fractured and every group was for them self fighting each other. We should exploit tribal differences in ttp and recreate such. We should be heavily recruiting tribals to join army and law enforcement agencies because in tribal areas due to poverty it makes it easy for them to be exploited. We should have offered them jobs by giving them jobs in law enforcement and army. This would have created a new generation of pro pak tribals who were very anti ttp and we could have destroyed ttp public support because people would see a tribal in army vs a tribal in ttp and know it’s not worth it because their people are dying at the end of the day. We needed to promote them being khawarij because tribal areas are very conservative Islamic so if we were successful in educating everyone against khawarij we would have public support. But we went after secularism and nationalism like with Musharraf’s “enlightened moderation” strategy we basically heavily boosted ttp narrative against us. They came at us with Islam and we fought with secularism. We should have fought back using Islam and proved them wrong. We can easily win this war if our leadership gets serious enough. Have you seen how we treated all those pro pak lashkars who fought ttp for us? Tribals formed lashkars and did the bulk of the fighting against ttp and tribal lashkars destroyed ttp in many areas. How did we reward them? Our stupid media labelled them as “good Taliban” and our lumber 1 treated them as terrorists as well and those lashkars who fought for us yesterday, today we started killing them and arresting them by labeling them Taliban as well. Also how about those other groups who fought on behalf of Pakistan against ttp particularly LeT? We thanked them by labelling them as terrorists and arresting hafiz saaed. How did we threat jamaat ud dawa that was actually destroying ttp narrative using Islam? We rewarded them by banning jamaat ud dawa. How ansar ul Islam which was destroying ttp using Islamic narrative with the help of locals how did we reward them? We banned their group as well and made them terrorists. We fought our allies while letting ttp and its allies run loose across the country. It’s easy to find excuses for our incompetence and lack of dedication but reality is if we truly wanted ttp finished it would have been finished long ago.

Which ally of ours in the fight against ttp did we not ban, arrest or kill?

What was our narrative against ttp’s narrative?

Why did we allow ttp despite many tribal differences to unite against us even tho we had many opportunities to destroy them?

Why did we stop pro pak groups present in Afghanistan from stop doing operations against ttp inside Afghanistan?

We were never serious in eliminating ttp. IF we are serious and we TRULY want to eliminate ttp, it can be done within weeks.

We made these guys our enemies:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1526801395671867393

https://twitter.com/x/status/1526803145770381313

We declared them as terrorists and cracked down on them while they were fighting for us.

All while we allow ttp khawarij to run loose across Pakistan.

EternalMortal · May 27, 2022

https://twitter.com/x/status/1530206456615686144

313ghazi · May 27, 2022

EternalMortal said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1530206456615686144

MashAllah lumbar 1 selling out the country again.

I think we capitulated to the demands of terrorists during the Musharraf era. It resulted in beheadings at roundabouts.

Not that it matters, as long as its not in chowks within DHA.

Azog · May 27, 2022

EternalMortal said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1530206456615686144

Wtf is this

this is surrender

state within the state. Didn’t we learn any lesson from swat 2009 agreement?

I am afraid I need to move out of this country if this agreement takes place. Banana republic

lastofthepatriots · May 27, 2022

EternalMortal said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1530206456615686144

@araz

Sir, your opinions regarding this?

You can give me another negative rating but my initial post where you gave me a negative rating was absolutely justified at this juncture.

You may call this negotiation but I call it as Pakistan Army throwing up their hands and surrendering.

Azog · May 27, 2022

Nizam e Adil regulations will be implemented in Malakand Division?

Same mistake being repeated. They wanted to capture whole KPK after 2009 agreement.

lastofthepatriots · May 27, 2022

Azog said:
Wtf is this

this is surrender

state within the state. Didn’t we learn any lesson from swat 2009 agreement?

I am afraid I need to move out of this country if this agreement takes place. Banana republic

Pakistan has been thrown to the dogs. Get out while you can. Zardaris, Sharifs and Army have raped and desecrated this country.

Azog · May 27, 2022

lastofthepatriots said:
Pakistan has been thrown to the dogs. Get out while you can. Zardaris, Sharifs and Army have raped and desecrated this country.

Sindhu desh and BLA would be so happy. If TTP can do it then why can’t we?

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TTP extends ceasefire till May 30 after 'successful' talks