Truth/Facts About Pakistani Claim Over Siachen Glacier

[VCheng]

No mate. I disagree here.

India will not be able to rise in the international community as long as it remains poor. China rose not because it resolved its issues with Japan or Korea but on the back of its economic muscle that no one could ignore, not even its detractors.

Its exactly the same with India. Our economic growth is utterly central to any global stature. Anything else is putting the cart before the horse.

That economic growth is central to rising in importance is a given, obviously.

I think that you are misunderestimating (to quote the great President Bush ) the corrosive role that the adversarial relationship between Pakistan and India plays in holding them both back. I would go as far as to predict that unless Modi recognizes this fact and takes steps to resolve these issues, he will not be able to deliver on the economic miracle that he was elected to achieve. The same holds true for the Pakistan Army on the other side, given that it holds the power in Pakistan.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

I would disagree. India will not be able to rise in the international community as it dreams of, and indeed, is capable of, without resolving its issues with Pakistan.

--
but india rose from country who gave gold to britain as secuirty in 1991 to gold rever of $ 300 b rever
with kargil and insugency and naxalisam

 

[genmirajborgza786]

The question you must ask is - do we lose anything major by not having good relations with Pakistan or not resolving bilateral issues.
India's priority as a Nation is economic growth. How central is Pakistan to that goal? Almost not at all. Trade with Pakistan will be very little in percentage terms to India;s overall exports and trade.

Ergo, Pakistan does not rank high on the priority of issues to be tackled. So whether or not we take the right approach or wrong approach is irrelevant. Its like the desert at the end of the meal, good if we get it, doesnt really affect us badly if we don't.



That is the thing, Pakistan is not comfortable with having the LoC turned into an IB, that would be everything they have worked against the last 67 years. And it was understood that PA will never agree to AGPL authentication, but it served to put the ball in Pakistan's court at a time when MMS was exerting immense pressure to get GoI to get on board his 'mountain of peace' plan by unilaterally vacating Siachen.

the AGPL authentication is not a very realistic approach, lets try to look at more pragmatic solution in the over all context of Kashmir ,what if India gives Pakistan siachen glacier & Pakistan in return , accepts the LOC as the international border. that seems like a fair deal, in this way Pakistan gets a face saving by getting siachen, & you get to keep your part of Kashmir while at the same time get rid of the western border nuisance

@Syed.Ali.Haider this is where the U.S will have to seriously arm twist the establishment

 

[VCheng]

the AGPL authentication is not a very realistic approach, lets try to look at more pragmatic solution in the over all context of Kashmir ,what if India gives Pakistan siachen glacier & Pakistan in return , accepts the LOC as the international border. that seems like a fair deal, in this way Pakistan gets a face saving by getting siachen, & you get to keep your part of Kashmir while at the same time get rid of the western border nuisance

But will Pakistan be able to accept the LoC as the final border?

 

[genmirajborgza786]

But will Pakistan be able to accept the LoC as the final border?

this is where the U.S will have to seriously arm twist the establishment the harder the "twist" the better the results !

 

[VCheng]

this is where the U.S will have to seriously arm twist the establishment

But why would you expect USA to exert this pressure? There has to be an important US national interest involved, and I just do not see one at the moment.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

The benefit to Pakistan is non-monetary. India's occupation of Siachen becomes a useful rallying cry to unite the people behind the Army and positively reinforces their overarching role as Defenders of the Realm against the Big Bad Wolf next door. That value cannot be understated, given that there is not much else that can be used to unify an increasingly fractious country.

@Syed.Ali.Haider
On the Indian side: all that is of no consequence. The Indian Strategic Estt. has entirely discounted all that you speak about as being pathologically inevitable and inconsequential. Inconsequential, because any expenses on holding Siachen in terms of 'Blood and Treasure' is now well within the limits of affordability. India has been able to put in place enough systems which are now mitigating the loss of 'Blood' while any loss of 'Treasure' is acceptable to the Exchequer as @Contrarian has pointed out. India is better off in this "Battle of Attrition".
However the "increasingly fractious country" chooses to find rallying cries to form under; really does not matter; since we can be sanguine that more fractious issues will keep arising in time, so even that is disregarded.
What the eventual fate of the over-arching "Deep State" is or will be; is beyond anybody.....even god.

As for International Opinion; it has ceased to be a "pressure point" of any concern. The International Community has much more to keep them concerned than about this Sub-Arctic like region.

Now to address @Chak Bamu's views articulated earlier which are rather irrelevant to the core topic of this thread and may even be classified as 'trolling'; but let me respond to that. This sub-arctic like region is largely ice, snow and rock; therefore may be considered to be worthless. But let us recall some statements by notables in Pakistan on this; including Jinnah and more recently Gen.Shareef. The expression "Jugular Vein" has been used in this context. Well then; if something flows through a "Jugular Vein" to make it so important as to be mentioned again and again; then it stands to reason that the source of that flow through the "Jugular Vein" is important. That is what that desolate expanse of Snow and Ice is all about. One could blame it all on Physics perhaps!

So notwithstanding Chak Bamu's protestations, the PA is keen to claim Siachen if it possibly can. While facing the rather insurmountable question of how to do it?
Which is just why Xeric has made the exertions to start this thread, else even this would not have happened......

@toxic_pus and Syed.Ali.Haider....... The answers to the conundrum of the rival claims to Siachen lie in a conclave in Karachi in 1949..........but will not be found even there.
Because Siachen and anything or everything connected to it was beyond the imagination of those in that conclave who saw clearly upto NJ4982 and then got totally engulfed in impenetrable fog beyond that.
They probably knew more about Mars then!

 

[VCheng]

The answers to the conundrum of the rival claims to Siachen lie in a conclave in Karachi in 1949..........but will not be found even there.
Because Siachen and anything or everything connected to it was beyond the imagination of those in that conclave who saw clearly upto NJ4982 and then got totally engulfed in impenetrable fog beyond that.
They probably knew more about Mars then!

Actually, the primary references available are sufficiently clear.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

But why would you expect USA to exert this pressure? There has to be an important US national interest involved, and I just do not see one at the moment.

doesn't U.S wants a strong India, what better way to do it, & in that way the Indian Army will have only "one" front & a very special "one" @ that to concentrate on & that my friend is something you Americans would love to have it, now don't you eh'

 

[VCheng]

doesn't U.S wants a strong India, what better way to do it, & in that way the Indian Army will have only "one" & a very special one @ that to concentrate on & that my friend is something you Americans would love to have it, now don't you eh'

India wants a strong India, USA only wants an India that can help US national interests. There is a difference between the two, Sir.

 

[he-man]

There is only 1 truth...................we have the siachen right now.
And its gonna be like that only.

 

[Contrarian]

That economic growth is central to rising in importance is a given, obviously.

I think that you are misunderestimating (to quote the great President Bush ) the corrosive role that the adversarial relationship between Pakistan and India plays in holding them both back. I would go as far as to predict that unless Modi recognizes this fact and takes steps to resolve these issues, he will not be able to deliver on the economic miracle that he was elected to achieve. The same holds true for the Pakistan Army on the other side, given that it holds the power in Pakistan.

You are empirically wrong my friend.
India has already achieved a sustained growth rate of over 7% without resolving any issue with Pakistan.

The same only need be achieved again...though since its Modi, we are keen on having a decade of 8% plus sustained growth.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

this is where the U.S will have to seriously arm twist the establishment the harder the "twist" the better the results !

There does not seem to be any reason for USA to be doing any of that, @Syed.Ali.Haider is absolutely correct on that. Even India wants to keep the USA at "Yardarm" length from this matter.
While truth is that both India and Pakistan will be better off changing the LoC into the IB. But so much has been invested into the conflict; that there seems to be little likelihood of that happening.
More so; if that indeed happens......then it will hammer at the very raison d'etre of many entities and other things.

 

[Contrarian]

the AGPL authentication is not a very realistic approach, lets try to look at more pragmatic solution in the over all context of Kashmir ,what if India gives Pakistan siachen glacier & Pakistan in return , accepts the LOC as the international border. that seems like a fair deal, in this way Pakistan gets a face saving by getting siachen, & you get to keep your part of Kashmir while at the same time get rid of the western border nuisance

@Syed.Ali.Haider this is where the U.S will have to seriously arm twist the establishment

I have no doubt that GoI would jump at this solution but with the rider that Siachen remains a non militarized region. It is IA's understanding that in the future with better technological advances, it could be used to connect China and Pakistan for a pincer movement against India in J&K.

The PA would never agree to it though, it would be everything they have worked against...everything they have invested against.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

India wants a strong India, USA only wants an India that can help US national interests. There is a difference between the two, Sir.

so this might be a possibility, if & only if India serves that interest
man the Indians are one cunning freaks to be honest, they literally had the cake & ate it too ! & this is where I feel sorry for all of us who sacrificed so much for strengthening democratic institutions & values in Pakistan now have to see it going down the hill , in this cruel world of international geo-politics
you know cheng kabhi kabhi i think, ZAB's biggest mistake was not accepting LOC as the international border back in Shimla it was the perfect time to do it , this mistake I think, eventually cost him his life he fed the monster which later ate him, & the sad part in this is that, he actually had the monster cornered at one point but dint utilized that oppurtunity