Transparency Vs Secrecy Pros & Cons

[Wet Shirt Contest]

Yet when it was revealed.. it was revealed in earnest..
I have also seen Indian blog sites being much more informed of insider news in Indian affair.
So somebody's talking, it may be just basic pride and Indians deserve to celebrate it. But it can be a double edged sword from time to time.

The Jf-17 that is known to the general public.. is only 80% of what lies within the aircraft, its weapon system.. and the like.
What is known of C4I capabilities.. even less.
The question is not how these are good things or bad things.. its just a matter of doctrine. ..of transparency.
India's relative openness and transparency about its programs leaves little room for operational secrets.
Pakistan's extreme secrecy and opacity of fund usage ends up opening the doors for massive corruption in the name of National security.
In any case.. these are all beyond the scope of this topic.



Yet Indian programmes come to light a lot earlier than ours.. As I stated above.. somebody's talking.
The same happens here, people talk.. it can be a matter of pride to know that something big has been achieved..but at the same time.. it ends up fuelling more rumors..and possibly igniting one arms race after the other.

Pakistan Missile test's are NO different
You Cannot Control Almighty Media, If it's Chest Thumping to you guys than Nobody can help with that.
A hint For You. NOT every defence Project In india are made public And NEVER will be. Well guarded secrets which may harm our national interests. Anyways it's Not Related to jf17

 

[Najam Khan]

Hi,

Amazing posts at times---unbelievable how you kids think----it is so shocking to see you people have no learning abilities and have a very difficult being analytical about your equipment.

In real life---when you want to protect your household from highway robbers ( dacoits ) you buy the klashikov---regardless of the exorbitant price that you pay on the black market.

When facing a massive strike force with the likes of indian air force----operating cost is the least of the issue---. Parity against the enemy's weapons system is the most important issue.

For thousands of years of warfare history---nations which have been at war---or wanted to be at war---each one of the successful ones wanted to outdo the other in man, machine, equipment, preparedness----with ruthless force---with brutal force---with massive overwhelming force---.

Second world war showed that extremely superior weaponery can be overwhelmed by a massive number of above average weaponery---like german tanks against the american tanks----but then the 1st gulf war showed---the extremely superior and 'intelligent' weaponery and bigger numbers can take out average weaponery 99.999% of the times with success.

The 2nd gulf war re-assured the fact that the superior technology that can hit targets from a farther distance will always succeed over lesser technologies that can hit targets at shorter distances---and it also re-assured the fact----that those with better technology and with higher numbers will still overcome their less fortunate opponents.

Cost of ownership is just one of the MINOR factors and NOT 'THE' FACTOR. People who make it as such are only fooling themselves in the make belief.

Oldman, my post which you replied was in response to the post by SHIELD.

1st of All LM ,Boeing,Mig, Su ,Rafale, Ef and Saab got own fan followers,their customers are of different league ,those who want some cheap ,yet quiet capable and good serviciblity will go for 2nd hand Mig 29SMT, Gripen,F16 block 40, new FA-50 Or even Mirage m2k with 15yrs of shelf life.

I hope you know the difference between a rock band's music sales and military/weapon sale. Having enough money in pocket in one moment never ensure a big purchase, long term operating costs play more vital role in any such deal. The aircraft you have listed are no-way "Cheap", all of these have very high operating costs as compare to JF-17.

---------------
Coming back to your theory about buying weapon systems. Its both correct and incorrect at the same time, It holds true if you are talking about a small group of people fighting against a bigger group but if you are talking about a country investing maximum of its defence budget only to make a lethal weapon operational for a long period of time…that’s where it becomes false (especially when you consider Pakistan as your case).

Please keep your knowledge and experience about other military aside, lets see how this theory holds on Pakistan (because this is what we were discussing).

Why was F-104 grounded in just 9 years of service? It was a lethal fighting machine…supersonic air superiority fighter of its time. But keeping bunch of F-104 operational was not a cost-worthy solution for Pakistan. Air superiority comes with both quality and quantity, in both case you need a bid budget to run things.

To sum it all up, long term operating cost have always been one of the main reasons why PAF never went further in Rafale, Eurofighter or Mirage-2000 deal.

 

[Najam Khan]

I Stopped Reading after that!, you are miserably wrong Specially on red part.
Unexpected Immature comment from a Think Tank like you ,

India unveiled Arihant in 2009, since then Indian media is counting itself among the six nations who operate nuclear submarines (I am talking about reports before Induction of INS Chakra, which is also inducted recently). Last month, on June 18 the nuclear reactor trials were completed, my question is how long will it take to induct Arihant in Indian Navy…next year if all things go as planned?

India’s is presenting itself as an emerging military power. Watching her weapon acquisitions and future military plans there is no-doubt in this argument, but my original argument stands correct that the media projection before induction of these weapons attained by them over past decade points to only one thing ‘Psychological warfare’ against Pakistan and China.

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

India unveiled Arihant in 2009, since then Indian media is counting itself among the six nations who operate nuclear submarines (I am talking about reports before Induction of INS Chakra, which is also inducted recently). Last month, on June 18 the nuclear reactor trials were completed, my question is how long will it take to induct Arihant in Indian Navy…next year if all things go as planned?

India’s is presenting itself as an emerging military power. Watching her weapon acquisitions and future military plans there is no-doubt in this argument, but my original argument stands correct that the media projection before induction of these weapons attained by them over past decade points to only one thing ‘Psychological warfare’ against Pakistan and China.

Najam, Arihant project kept secret most of the time from it's existence, it has to revealed someday to general public. What india media say's is NOT official, Media is free to do what they wish for, Most of us are well aware of how media in sub-continent works. As i said before NOT every defence Project In india are made public And NEVER will be. Officials Know what they are revealing as long as it doesn't Harm National Interest's. You are a Think Tank You Should be wise enough to Know what i am trying to convey here.

Your Argument was Generalizing everything related to Indian Defence and tagging it as chest thumping is Foolish.

 

[Viper0011.]

I would like to invest on a 3million worth of munition if it can save my 20million worth plane than a 200K worth of munition which can jeoperdize my 20million worth of investment, not to mention a good pilot. Stealth is very expensive (no dobut the platform is more survivable), but if I can't spend 200million a piece, I can certainly spend 5 million to reduce my valnurability.

You said a lot of good things. But you missed the point here. With the ABM - AD capabilities growing, the standoff tech will start to get out dated. What will remain potent will be the Stealth jets, both in AD, SEAD and GA capability. Future is Stealth drones (like the ones USN is using specifically, with VSTOL and other good stuff). BUT, you CAN make JFT B III a stealth one. You don't need hundreds of them. May be a few squadrons focused on air defence purposes. The beauty is 50 plans will pretty much act like 150 as again what you can't see can't be hit back.

Not worth my time.

Not worth your time or reality doesn't give you an option to answer?

 

[Najam Khan]

Najam, Arihant project kept secret most of the time from it's existence, it has to revealed someday to general public. What india media say's is NOT official, Media is free to do what they wish for, Most of us are well aware of how media in sub-continent works. As i said before NOT every defence Project In india are made public And NEVER will be. Officials Know what they are revealing as long as it doesn't Harm National Interest's. You are a Think Tank You Should be wise enough to Know what i am trying to convey here.

Your Argument was Generalizing everything related to Indian Defence and tagging it as chest thumping is Foolish.

We Shirt, I am not denying that Arihant was kept secret during its development phase. If you read last portion of my first comment (the thread opening comment), I talked about articles in military magazines and defence journals. if you are following Indian Magazines like Force ( I know its not official, but most of the people that write in it are ex-Military), you'll get my point.

Last but not the least, I never meant that Indian's military media projection strategy is foolish, in fact its a well organized campaign that is constantly pressurizing masses in China and Pakistan, people that doesn't understand the actual game.

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

We Shirt, I am not denying that Arihant was kept secret during its development phase. If you read last portion of my first comment (the thread opening comment), I talked about articles in military magazines and defence journals. if you are following Indian Magazines like Force ( I know its not official, but most of the people that write in it are ex-Military), you'll get my point.

Last but not the least, I never meant that Indian's military media projection strategy is foolish, in fact its a well organized campaign that is constantly pressurizing masses in China and Pakistan, people that doesn't understand the actual game.

Najam, Seems like You are agree on Arihant Point.
Whenever You use word Media, Pathetic Channels like India TV or Zee news "comes in my mind" On Magazine point, I do Not Follow any, I am well aware of ongoing projects.

You Said "This chest pumping has its pros and cons"

Depends on capabilities and how Your planners counter this, But Some Key Projects (Indigenous or NOT) are well kept secrets.
If reading defence magazines gives any advantages, so be it, In case of India Capability surprises are unpleasant surprises for our rivals and that's entirely different cheese.

 

[Storm Force]

Most of you have missed the MOST IMPORTANT DIFFERENCES between indian & pakistani military mindsets

Firstly India has FAR more media outlets possibly ten fold over pakistan and a a lot of GOVT red tape buracratic red tape when concluding any defense deal. The indians military have to get thru several rounds of political fences which takes time. Naturally things get leaked and discussed in media

In pakistan no such red tape exists there is no GOVT voice... JUST THE MILITARY

Secondly India military infrastructure, future needs, size of finance/funding is a completely diffrent level to pakistan. We are talking 6 or 7 times the size in $$$$$ ALONE... This means in turn far more news to talk about.

This is not chest beating ITS just 2 countries operating on different levels in diffrent political rules

 

[Viper0011.]

In pakistan no such red tape exists there is no GOVT voice... JUST THE MILITARY

Well, you were going pretty good with the rest of the argument and here it went to the crapper. The truth is, when it comes to military projects, RARELY any gov't jumps into those. They may play favorites for benefits / kickbacks, but it is the same everywhere. It is the same for Pakistan too. In fact, Pakistan's military has ended projects due to civilian leaderships push to reduce the size of the military expenditure. Even Kiyani had stated a few times and that was shown in the US media. Whether that be Pentagon, Indian military, Pakistani military or anyone else, when it comes to national security, it's all the same. Some have more lip service on the tv and some deal with stuff behind closed doors but it is the SAME pretty much.

No trying to take sides here but I don't like it when an argument is derailed from objectivity due to personal preferences and unreal national pride.

 

[Nishan_101]

Love the argument here. You totally missed the point from the above post, written extremely professionally.

I've said it in many of my posts, India is NOT US or anything like it. But the way you guys make noise, you guys are trying to project that to the world. Fyi, if there wasn't China, there won't be India having any cash these days. In the bigger strategic game, India is JUST a hedge against China. Trust me on that!!!
Btw, the cash you talk about so proudly, was given to you to bring your poor class to a middle class level by the mighty US. Not to become a superpower. American tax payers funded your country, lost their jobs in the process (thanks to my countrymen in Washington who sold the country to the Indian lobby).

Anyway, not to start a troll here, re-read the above post. He's clearly making the same point. It's psy warfare to impress people beyond the actual capability, which is a weakness in the case of PAF as the mouth-diarrhea (as I refer to it) may impress Srilanka or Bangladesh, it has no effect on China and Pakistan. It infact gives these strong adversaries an option to reassess their situation. A small example (not relevant due to the size of forces) is US vs. Iran. I personally think that if we needed to remove Iran's nuke, a stealth attack at a larger scale would've done the job four years ago. But due to constant media show-offs, you've now given Iran years to constantly update their strategy and it's become more riskier to do so.

Although you are right, but there are weakness in Pakistan as well and we are confused to(only people) because of the fact that once we suggest that China will be a super power and we should put all our horses there. But now the situation is different there are riots in Guangdong as well as in Tibet and XInjiang which will going to make it much weaker and can surely break it for ever. I think that the US presence in Pakistan as well as some Pakistani local support towards US might lead to control a bit from US side, as PAF is looking to increase their fleet of Block-52 from 18-50+ (I guess) as they have reduced the JF-17 numbers as planned 300 which is now 150(50 of each Blocks). And there is possibility of 70 J-10BS and and may be 70 J-10C, but the remaining 14 F-16s are also coming too. So, all that has been planned is now in rubbish and may be we will going to buy T-50s rather than JF-17 dual seat for trainer.

 

[cyphercide]

Last time that India pulled off something on ninja mode, she was slammed hard with sanctions. Observers noted that the severity of restrictions was also fueled by the fact that the West was caught daydreaming on the development. Transparency in our military programs aids to diffuse such a situation at it's onset. Ergo, No leaves are rustled when an Agni V, publicized much in advance, actually takes off. An open door does well to allay fears in the West,that still views us with suspicion on many fronts, just what and who exactly our arms are built to target.

While such a policy might be useful for adversaries to plot their counters well in advance, one would presume it to be negligible. India essentially fields a massively armed force spread over a massively large geographical area. Smoke and mirrors can only do so much as to slow down India's retaliation.

 

[Tameem]

At least these young fools did something , while the older fools ran off to the US to fend for themselves without contributing jack to the nation.

More than that, what barring him now to return and contribute something substantial on the ground to his motherland finally? And that exactly is the actual and current guilt inside him, and to kill it, he always search blames to put upon the resident Pakistanis against his abject cowardness.

 

[Pfpilot]

The question of transparency comes down to the threat perception. How the PAF, and the Pakistani military as a whole, see the regional conflicts and disagreements playing out over the next decade or two. If the realization is that the true war is really on the Western border and that India is no more a threat, then transparency becomes a viable proposition. Transparency can go a long way in bringing back the trust the common man has lost in the armed forces; giving them hope by showing them that the Pakistani effort against the extremist threat is sincere.

On the other hand, if the armed forces deem a war with India a viable threat, then the concept of secrecy becomes far more understandable. The problem with that thinking is: it is based on a flawed understanding of the economic realities of the 21st century. The Indians would not sacrifice their economic gains for a war with Pakistan; a war that would result in nothing but a ceasefire at best or a worst case scenario of MAD...essentially a no-win situation. The only way the Indians could potentially become aggressive is: if the Pakistani establishment continues to actively or indirectly support elements that adversely affect India. Essentially, were Pakistan to stop antagonizing India, our neighbors would have very little interest in us indeed; thanks to the Dragon on their Eastern doorstep.

Essentially, the Pakistani armed forces have created their own threats and then used them to justify the secrecy that not only hides genuine capability, but also conveniently covers up mass corruption. There is really no right or wrong answer. The two sides in the Cold War were so secretive that intelligence agencies on both sides became more powerful than their respective military. The constant and imminent threat of war predisposed both sides to hide every little detail they could get away with. Pakistan must decide if such an atmosphere exists in the subcontinent and so far the armed forces seem to think so.

 

[cyphercide]

The two sides in the Cold War were so secretive that intelligence agencies on both sides became more powerful than their respective military. The constant and imminent threat of war predisposed both sides to hide every little detail they could get away with. Pakistan must decide if such an atmosphere exists in the subcontinent and so far the armed forces seem to think so.

Au contraire, The Cold War was eventuality neutralized out on the technical breakthroughs that were thoroughly publicized. No doubt, The USAF Generals fancied their chances more than once on leveling the Soviet Union but were held back only due to the clarity on the retaliation that was to be followed. The risk was just too great to be pursued and hence, Sharpening the perfect implementation of the MAD doctrine was the only way forward.

 

[MastanKhan]

Last time that India pulled off something on ninja mode, she was slammed hard with sanctions. Observers noted that the severity of restrictions was also fueled by the fact that the West was caught daydreaming on the development. Transparency in our military programs aids to diffuse such a situation at it's onset. Ergo, No leaves are rustled when an Agni V, publicized much in advance, actually takes off. An open door does well to allay fears in the West,that still views us with suspicion on many fronts, just what and who exactly our arms are built to target.

While such a policy might be useful for adversaries to plot their counters well in advance, one would presume it to be negligible. India essentially fields a massively armed force spread over a massively large geographical area. Smoke and mirrors can only do so much as to slow down India's retaliation.

Hi,

We may say that west was caught sleeping---but actually it was not---. The priorities were somewhere else---the threat was only considered to stay local---but then the bottom line is that you cannot keep independent and free nations to stay honest all the time. Men are going to do their thing and other men will let them.


Pffpilot,

A little more detail---and yours could be an editorial class article.