Tracking jf-17 information post Zuhai air show

[Mani2020]

This thread is mother of all the thanks...............


Mujhe bhi kuch dedo bhaiyo....

if you like this thread you can hit thanks button on the posts

 

[notorious_eagle]

They released this news out of shame of their impotency that they had for the longest period of times---they wanted to look stronger before they became stronger just for show----like they always do---. And there was no need for it that this stage----paf had gotten what it wanted---they should have stayed put and kept a lid on it.

Khan Sahab i agree with you whole heartedly that PAF should have kept the lid on its BVRAAM program, but whats done is done and by no means is the release of this news a face saving for PAF. The common assumption was that JF17 should have had a BVRAAM since the day it was inducted in the 26th Squadron, indeed i held the same view too but what many people don't realize is that the reason why the BVRAAM is being added now is due to the fact that the basic version of SD10 which was being offered was outright rejected by PAF after field tests.

It simply did not meet our requirements, result PAF engineers/pilots worked with our Chinese brothers in further improving this missile. Keep in mind PAF after the lifting of sanctions has been quite active in testing several options of BVRAAM's and WVRAAM's, we provided our experience and knowledge to the Chinese and together with them made an even better BVRAAM. I was aware of the fact that PAF was not going for the basic SD10 as this was told to me by someone very high up in PAF but wasn't aware that it would be called SD10B. This release of news by no means does not makes PAF look impotent, just confirms the fact that they are making SD10B our primary BVR weapon for our JF17 fleet. If you remember not long ago you were bashing PAF for going with the basic SD10, what you did not know was that PAF was working on an even better option. Same goes for J10A, it was outright rejected by the PAF but we are working right now with the Chinese to make this plane even more lethal. It will certainly be a beast, that i can assure you off .

PAF in my opinion is certainly on the right path now. Having a BVR Missile in our inventory offers us more advantage as compared to the IAF, just by knowing that PAF has BVR Missiles in its inventory forces them to change their tactics and war plans. It forces them to think that if they are near Pakistan's airspace or about to enter, our aircrafts can take a BVR shot at them from stand off range. This forces their strike package to perform evasive manoeuvres and deviates them from their prime mission, it puts them on the defensive. Improved operational efficiency, Net Centric Networking, advanced air to air missiles, anti radiation missiles, AWACS, Air Refuelling, Strike Aircrafts linked with advanced targeting pods, improved tactics and high availability of all assets in the next 5 years certainly makes it a force to be reckoned with. I just hope in this very short time PAF is able to absorb these technologies and develop their tactics around them. Oh and on a side note, Pakistan did not inform India of the testing of Babur because its a cruise missile and our treaty only involves Ballistic Missiles.

 

[MastanKhan]

notorious_eagle,

My friend---for a country like pakistan---the scrutiny that is it under---it is always the best practise for its millitary wing to keep as much material under the wraps that it can.

In the last 45 years we have seen what happens to us---we get something better and then we strutt and preen around like stallions high on testosterone---and then we get sanctioned or we run out of funds and don't have the money to get what we desperately needed.

This national character and heritage needs to be changed.

I am riminded of the conversation between ELIAHU COHEN and the syrian army colonel on the golan heights---when Cohen asks the Col----when these ****** israeli 'p-g-' come over I fear we have no protection---and the colonel proudly waves his hands towards the directions of the hidden gun placements---missiles sites and howitzers---retorting---those ****** israelis would never get through---.

I get a feeling of dejavu all over again---.

On the last part of your post--it is a little bit different---pakistan didnot inform india that we had a cruise missile---india thought it had a leg up on us when it showed us what it wanted the treaty on what kind of missiles---we didnot volunteer any info on that---they didnot ask for it because they assumed that we were not capable of manufacturing the system ie BABUR---.

It is a universal standard----PROMISE LESS DELIVER MORE----but paf has changed to PROMISE MORE DELIVER LESS. Until and unless the paf is not confronted and forced to change its mindset---we got a problem.

PAF has become a branch of millitary that is full of excuses---legitimate or illegitimate---the bottomline is that the nation needs a job to be done---and if you wear the blue uniform with wings on it---then better step upto the plate and be the man you are.

We pakistanis----have always accepted their excuses without questioning their integrity---but on the other hand we always challenge the integrity of our army---and look at the army---through thick and thin---they have found what they needed----.

5 years is a good time to have a group of dedicated servicemen efficient in what they operate---we are talking about the JF 17---the F 16 blk 52 and mlu's and the awacs---not bringing into picture the J 10's yet.

Yes---the BVR's will totally change the psyche of the pakistani flyers and their opponents---just like the AK47 has been called the greatest equalizer of power and strength for a human being---in the similiar manner bvr's have what it takes to rule the skies.


WAQAS,

You have done it again---thanks---you need to understand one thing---our board here is comparatively more democratic and is open to extremely critical discussion as long as it stays within reason.

That other place does not want anything said aganist the air force---.

I guess the members never read what I was saying---they only read what they wanted to see---.

Let the chinese release the information---let anyone else release the information about the SD 10 or our radar and electronics system---it doesnot become a news---it only stays as a release / information.

It becomes a news item when the end user starts flaunting its capabilities---that is when it begins to make waves on the political front.

The millitaries are already in the know and they are trying to come up with things to counter the issues----thet part is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the political part in this scenario---the political problems with any weapons purchase had made paf an impotent air force in the past---.

We strutted around our F 16's in the 80's----the psyche of pakistani public---everything had F 16 picture on it---they got sanctioned---if for some reason we could have laid low as a public---learnt to be secretive like the israelis or the south africans and not bragged about what we could do with that aircraft---could the things been different---or if we as civilians not bragged about our nuc capabilities openly at every gathering ( like our presidents and prime ministers and every politician would threaten india with our nuc strike and pluck their eyes out or break their faces) could the things have been different---maybe 50 / 50.

Bottomline----paf needs to learn to keep its mouth shut as of now---when you don't perfom well at your job, you try to lay low---keep your mouth shut and do better to come out ahead at the end of the day---and then let the people see the results of what you have done----then let us decide what to tell you.

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

Yarr that was great thread MANI Good job.......

but while tracking information, as i pointed out this b4, can anyone show me where exactly Jf-17s Chaff and flare dispensers. there are too many belly pics on JFT on surface from recent flight demonstration. as i tried hard to find it on higher resolution pics but cant find a single.
here is the pic

will somebody show me the chaff & flare dispensers

 

[Mani2020]

Reply to Mastan Khan's post

this Mr Mastan Khan needs to take a deep breath, relax and stop taking himself so seriously. There was nothing confidential about Eagle Hannan's posts. I visited the JF17 team at Farnborough and met several officers related to the project. THey were giving out the same information as EagleHannan was provided, being careful I made by posts related to the visit a bit 'sanitized' but realized in he next couple of days that the same infromation was already provided to the press and started appearing in various articles and with other posters who visited Farnborough. PAF people know what is public and what is not, several of my questions were not answered and I was told clearly that the question cannot be answered because of sensitive nature.

and

Has the thought ever crossed Mr Mastan Khan's mind that certain capabilities are made public so that the adversary knows about them and knowledge of them acts as a deterrent. Sometimes capabilities which are non-existent are made public just to keep the adversary guessing. I also said that the info provided to Eagle Hannan has been disclosed before (more or less) at different places. And from personal exeprience I told you that certain information is not being provided. Obviously there is a method to this. However I am not sure you are able to read my post or have the grey matter to understand it

 

[Mani2020]

This is another reply for Mastan Khan lol i think he is getting famous there

Answer to his question is Two part

First like i have said before
Information about the SD-10 integration can not be kept secret as manufactures from which we are importing weapons is releasing information.
JF-17 is intended for export such information is critical for the perspective customers so had to be released for marketing and promotion.

Second Part is creating a deterrence like Mazhar said i.e. PAF is now showing to the indians that it is prepared to inflict heavy losses on India as PAF too have capability similar to the Indians thus making sure that IAF is aware of the risk so that they will refrain from aggression.

And we all know that every one in the world knows that PAF now operates F-16 Block 52+ which comes with AIM-120 C5 AMRAAM thus IAF already know that PAF has a BVR capability.

there were many other replies for Mastan Khan but i can't post many of them simply because i don't want to spoil this thread

and also there were many comments that really showed how pissed they are from Mastan Khan and his comments and had a lot of anger in their replies .posting that replies here will be annoying

Waqas also know that replies.kyoun waqas?

 

[Manticore]

Ive gone through there threads for the past month-- except a handful of great members [some of which are/were members here aswell ] all other are just like average enthusiasts like us--

I for one did not like how they openly chanted defence.pk 's ''poor quality''aswell as its senior members ''questionable authority and patriotism''

For me , i liked the layout of this forum, when i formally joined a forum 2years back-- thanks to neo and bezerk for the layout

The info on this forum is richer-- but scattered---- thats why i started the jf17 info pool---eventhough i dont have any fancy designations like 'researcher' etc

Mastan sb--- with age comes experience-- without knowledge of our history , we are doomed in the future by repeating the same mistake all over again-- thankyou for enlightening us , the young generation in that regard -- this forum allows freedom of expressing different point of views

 

[SQ8]

@MK

Something had to be said to keep the attention away from all those brand new staff cars ..
and the renovations going on in E-9.
But..lets say..there are a few surprises still kept out of the light..
To give you another example..
Back in olden times..
It was preferable to bring out your best swordsmen or your beefiest man in front..when you faced off..

But you rarely ever showed off the best archers in your army...or the one best with the lance...or how well your catapult threw..
Whether you had greek fire or not...

There are many other instances..when some PAF officers do tend to speak a little openly to certain individuals.. especially if they find the lad showing interest and knowledge..but they do it usually within OPSEC..and in good faith.
Is this information damaging to our security.. I doubt that..
But will it create more speculation amongst our foe..specifically the Media.. which might use it as an excuse to pump up hysteria..and allow our enemies to buy more hardware then they deemed sufficient.

 

[MastanKhan]

@MK

But you rarely ever showed off the best archers in your army...or the one best with the lance...or how well your catapult threw..
Whether you had greek fire or not...


Is this information damaging to our security.. I doubt that..
But will it create more speculation amongst our foe..specifically the Media.. which might use it as an excuse to pump up hysteria..and allow our enemies to buy more hardware then they deemed sufficient.

Santro,

You put it in two lines, that I needed two chapters to explain and still having a ahrd time explaining. The bottomline is that we need to understand what kind of news creates hysteria---.

Let the manufacturer say whatever it wants to---. The manufacturer needs to make a sale of its material---but there is no reason for the end user to jump on the band wagon before time.

What I am saying is, that, we need to change our mindset---we need to wait for the equipment to be in our arsenal and operational before we make the claim of fame for its worthiness.

On a scale of 1----10, we are bragging that our equipment is a 10----but in truth---it is a 6 1/2 to 7 1/2----so now what do you think the opponent is doing----they are getting ready for a 10 and will have counter measures for a 10 and not a 7 1/2----.

Now we have forced upon them the urgency to develop counter measures---I understand that they are poor aircraft designers---but for counter measures, they have a very good resource in israel and the u s as well.

Has the PAF ever thought that it is the USAF that would be the most concerned about what the SD 10 A can do---it may re-adjust the balance of power in the pacific---.

Now that egypt is interested in the aircraft----you will have israel coming up with counter measures as well.

The thing is that if you let it be---play it low---there is a chance that the opponent may not feel the urgency and will maintain the status quo.

 

[MastanKhan]

This is another reply for Mastan Khan lol i think he is getting famous there



there were many other replies for Mastan Khan but i can't post many of them simply because i don't want to spoil this thread

and also there were many comments that really showed how pissed they are from Mastan Khan and his comments and had a lot of anger in their replies .posting that replies here will be annoying

Waqas also know that replies.kyoun waqas?

Mani2020,

They are hopping mad at me---because, I have questioned the image they created of their god---I have put a chink in the armour of their idol---that happens----that all what this reaction is.

Do you really think that if it was in error, anyone at the air force would admit to the mistake----not a chance---they will cover it up like as if nothing happened---like that comment from the paf pilot about chinese flyers.

PAF doesnot need to be protected from members of a defence forum---they need to be put into the stand to be questioned about their deeds of not living upto the standards set.

 

[PAFAce]

Dear MastanKhan,

Information warfare is as much about revealing the right information at the right time than it is about withholding information. It's not only what your enemy doesn't know that affects the way he thinks, but also what he does know and then perceive from it. I remember in the Art of War, Sun Tzu says something along the lines "Show strength where you are weak, show weakness where you are strong". I would like add that, to throw your enemies off completely, show some of your actual strengths as well. I am far less likely to fight a guy if I know he is trained in Jiu Jutsu than I am if I know nothing about him at all. I hope the point I'm trying to make is clear.

You may be completely right, this may be a total system breakdown and a sort of "WikiLeaks", if you will, or you may be completely wrong. The only people to know for sure are the people who know the insides. You and I know only the outsides. Hence, us debating this here is neither useful nor necessary. Unless, of course, you have inside details, in which case feel free to ask me to shut up.

My point is simply this: If you hold onto your Ace for too long, you might lose your chance to play it, or it may lose its impact. If the PAF has revealed some of what they are cooking, even if it is something completely unexpected and sizzling hot, it won't necessarily ruin the flavor for our enemies.

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

will somebody show me the chaff & flare dispensers

will some body tell me where are the Chaff and flare dispensers

 

[PAFAce]

They're on the rear-fuselage it seems, the two visible squares (may not have been installed in this model?). That look like flare/chaffe dispenser to me. I can't see anything else that looks like a countermeasure dispenser, unless you look at the little area just above the bumps in the intakes, in the middle of the fuselage. But that can't be it, because we know the JF-17 has a hardpoint there.

Now compare that to the location on the F-16, to the left and right of the rear fuselage, on the trailing edge extension. Early JF-17 prototype. The dispensers are clearly in the same location as the ones on the F-16s

But, the production models seem to have them on the fuselage itself. Observe below:

 

[SQ8]

Lets make it even easier..
See those black squares..at the rear..
zoom in..and you will see what are separate panels.
these are covering up the CM's.

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

Lets make it even easier..
See those black squares..at the rear..
zoom in..and you will see what are separate panels.
these are covering up the CM's.

they are the air breaks, if i am not wrong.
and if u r talking about the Golden/metallic rectangular parts they are simply not covering the dispensers. its useless to cover them b/c its not a stealth bird.

PAF ACE is right there are no Chaff and flare Dispenser on the bird i am pointing. they are quite visible and large on PT-04 and holes b/w the bumps cant be the dispensers b/c its just in front of the hard point.
plus i cant see anything on Green thunder, there are so many angles available of thunder where we can clearly see the bottom.plus when they were going to UK carrying three fuel tanks, pictures were taken from bottom.CLEAR BELLY VIEW. even there, saw no dispensers