Tracing hate

[Yeti]

yeah. NFP does a good job overall.

However one thing that he ignores or white-washes is the despicable role of leftists in the early years of Pakistan.

From the high and mighty commies like Faiz to lowly leftie terroist thugs in the universities, to the corrupt surkha union leaders, they all pushed Pakistan into the hands of Mullahs.

Had these zameer farosh surkha lefties been loyal to Pakistan, they would not have created fishers in a country that was very young and very weak.


These lefties were educated lot, they should have used their brains a bit and not let Che guera types to destroy Pakistan from within.


But no, these lefties encouraged and thus led to the first coup attempt in the army. They destroyed universities by turning our young minds into monstrous castros and Chavezes.

These vermin are the reason why Pakistan failed to become south korea.
And
these very vermin are hell bent for the last 50+ years to turn Pakistan into another north korea or any other commie jannat.


So if commies are anti-business, who do you think businesses will rely for grass root support. Answer: Mullahs
If commies are anti-military, who do you think military will rely for grass root support? Answer: Mullahs.


Off course Mullah support didn't come cheap. But every Tom Dick and Harry including uncle Sam has used and bought Mullahs from 1947 all the way to 1990s when it was certain that commies are dead.


And this my friend is missing from the NFP essays. He will not put the blame on lefties and commies.


Thank you

I understand what you mean and I do agree with the points you made but one must bear in mind how things would have looked back in those early days of the 1960's, It was a time of
world revolution and the rise of marxism was also seen in countries such as Iran. The so called 'flower power' revolution was in full swing, just looking back at my fathers pictures from his 20's is prove of that when I see the long hair and the flared trousers.

 

[Developereo]

And this my friend is missing from the NFP essays. He will not put the blame on lefties and commies.

I seem to remember reading that NFP used to be quite a leftie in his student days.

However, in defence of 'lefties', it should be noted, as NFP did, that the primary target of Pakistan's left was not business in general but the feudal elite. India had the same sentiments and, to their credit, they neutered their feudals early on; as a result, India developed a proper democracy and prospered. Pakistan failed to enact land reforms and the country is doomed until we throw the feudals in jail and give our people a second, proper, independence.

ALL the problems of Pakistan -- from extremism to separatism (including 1971) to army excesses -- stem from one root cause: the utter and complete failure of the civil establishment dominated by feudals.

 

[Yeti]

I seem to remember reading that NFP used to be quite a leftie in his student days.

However, in defence of 'lefties', it should be noted, as NFP did, that the primary target of Pakistan's left was not business in general but the feudal elite. India had the same sentiments and, to their credit, they neutered their feudals early on; as a result, India developed a proper democracy and prospered. Pakistan failed to enact land reforms and the country is doomed until we throw the feudals in jail and give our people a second, proper, independence.

ALL the problems of Pakistan -- from extremism to separatism (including 1971) to army excesses -- stem from one root cause: the utter and complete failure of the civil establishment dominated by feudals.

Is it not true that land reforms were not done due in part that the big land owners came from various powerful families? they would have been the biggest losers if such reforms took place so it was in their benefit to see such laws were ever passed. In that respect the idea of Marxism or a people's revolution would have looked quite appealing to the masses.

 

[Developereo]

Is it not true that land reforms were not done due in part that the big land owners came from various powerful families? they would have been the biggest losers if such reforms took place so it was in their benefit to see such laws were ever passed.

Yes, the feudals dominated the Pakistani political scene early on, which has doomed Pakistan from the start.

In that respect the idea of Marxism or a people's revolution would have looked quite appealing to the masses.

In no way am I advocating Marxism or socialism. There is a long spectrum from 'land reforms' to end medieval indentured servitude on the one hand, to Marxism or socialism at the other extreme.

Private enterprise is essential for society's development; a thriving middle class is essential; rewarding results based on meritocracy is essential.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Is it not true that land reforms were not done due in part that the big land owners came from various powerful families? they would have been the biggest losers if such reforms took place so it was in their benefit to see such laws were ever passed. In that respect the idea of Marxism or a people's revolution would have looked quite appealing to the masses.

First of all lefties and commies have only in the big cities of Pakistan.

---- Pakistani masses in rural Punjab and Sindh had very little appetite for commie ideas.

Secondly, land reforms in Egypt, West Bengal and many many places around the world were "utter failure".

Thirdly those who jump up and down about Nehruvian socialism, fail to notice that his land reform was primarily directed towards Muslim landlords. Because Congress was funded by Hindu mill owners.

---- Note: do not confuse landlords with princes in India. Landlords were part of the provinces (under the control of Delhi), while princely states were sort of autonomous.

Forthly, Pakistani landlords in Punjab and Sindh have kept a relatively secular hold (exceptions are in South Punjab) over their areas. They are no angels, but they have provided a relatively docile environment under their control.

Our troubles are in big cities where urban feudals like fasto don Altaf holds sway.


Just keeping the discussion focused on Pakistan.

That's all

Thank you

 

[Yeti]

Apart from feudalism I see one of the biggest issues facing Pakistan is one of Tax reform, at the moment Pakistan has one of the lowest Tax revenues in the world. There was a article in the economist on this very topic this month which is worth a read:


http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21567999-who-will-pay-pakistans-state-plugging-leaks-poking-holes

 

[Developereo]

Apart from feudalism I see one of the biggest issues facing Pakistan is one of Tax reform, at the moment Pakistan has one of the lowest Tax revenues in the world. There was a article in the economist on this very topic this month which is worth a read:


Pakistan

And just who do you suppose is behind this particular failure of governance?

Tax holiday for feudal lords | The Nation

The current share of agriculture in GDP stands at 20.9 percent but its share in taxes is only 1.2 percent. Compared to it the share of the manufacturing sector in GDP is 18.9 percent while its contribution to taxes is 50.8 percent

Allowing common people to cheat on their taxes is one of the carrots given out by the feudals to keep the population quiet. If you don't pay taxes, you can't seriously complain about lack of governance.

P.S. In case you missed the latest charade by these feudals, here it is:

Pessimism about Pakistan’s tax amnesty

For a one-off flat payment of 40,000 Pakistani rupees — just shy of $420 — even lifelong tax evaders will have the slate wiped clean, in return for committing to pay tax regularly from next year.

This is a scheme for lifelong fraudsters to get away with their crime for a measly Rs. 40,000/-. For most upper middle class people, this is less than the cost of a small weekend dinner party.

 

[Yeti]

And just who do you suppose is behind this particular failure of governance?

Tax holiday for feudal lords | The Nation

The current share of agriculture in GDP stands at 20.9 percent but its share in taxes is only 1.2 percent. Compared to it the share of the manufacturing sector in GDP is 18.9 percent while its contribution to taxes is 50.8 percent

Allowing common people to cheat on their taxes is one of the carrots given out by the feudals to keep the population quiet. If you don't pay taxes, you can't seriously complain about lack of governance.

One intresting paragraph of the article you posted was this:

All major parliamentary parties like the PPP, PML-N, Q League and ANP depend on support from big landowners. As feudal families have been represented in all governments, elected or led by military dictators, they have succeeded in ensuring that no government harms their interests.


To break this cycle it seems impossible to me unless if IK he wins the election can do something but how can he take on the powers that be? does not seem likely

 

[Developereo]

To break this cycle it seems impossible to me unless if IK he wins the election can do something but how can he take on the powers that be? does not seem likely

Discussing IK will open the floodgates to a whole new set of issues, but I will simply say that IK is just one man. Even assuming that he can put together a competent panel of advisers and implementers, the problem of the feudals will not go away so easily. They will simply sit out his term and return afterwards. Musharraf, with all his faults, did some good things for Pakistan. Lots of things improved during his tenure, but they all went backwards as soon as Zardari came to town.

The only solution, as I wrote, is for the feudals to be removed permanently, but there is no chance they will go willingly. These bloodsuckers have been gorging on the country for the last 60 years: they saw East Pakistan leave, they will see Baluchistan go, and then KP. They would rather see the whole country disintegrate than to give up any power, which is why I said Pakistan is doomed as long as the feudals retain power.

All major parliamentary parties like the PPP, PML-N, Q League and ANP depend on support from big landowners. As feudal families have been represented in all governments, elected or led by military dictators, they have succeeded in ensuring that no government harms their interests.

Oligarchies are not uncommon and, as bad as they are for the democratic process, some are worse than others.

Industrialists tend to favor modernity: they need a thriving middle class as consumers; they need an educated society to provide a (globally) competitive, qualified workforce.

The feudal lord, on the other hand, hates modernity: for him, the best worker (indentured slave) is a poor, uneducated man who is deeply religious (i.e. indirectly controlled through the local mullah) who does not think too much or ask questions. This is important, for a man who unquestioningly accepts the mullah's diktat is more likely to accept the feudal lords' also. Misogyny is also useful, since it effectively reduces and delegates the control workload for the feudal lord: as long as the male slave is controlled, he will keep the rest of his family in line.

 

[Yeti]

Discussing IK will open the floodgates to a whole new set of issues, but I will simply say that IK is just one man. Even assuming that he can put together a competent panel of advisers and implementers, the problem of the feudals will not go away so easily. They will simply sit out his term and return afterwards. Musharraf, with all his faults, did some good things for Pakistan. Lots of things improved during his tenure, but they all went backwards as soon as Zardari came to town.

The only solution, as I wrote, is for the feudals to be removed permanently, but there is no chance they will go willingly. These bloodsuckers have been gorging on the country for the last 60 years: they saw East Pakistan leave, they will see Baluchistan go, and then KP. They would rather see the whole country disintegrate than to give up any power, which is why I said Pakistan is doomed as long as the feudals retain power.



Oligarchies are not uncommon and, as bad as they are for the democratic process, some are worse than others.

Industrialists tend to favor modernity: they need a thriving middle class as consumers; they need an educated society to provide a (globally) competitive, qualified workforce.

The feudal lord, on the other hand, hates modernity: for him, the best worker (indentured slave) is a poor, uneducated man who is deeply religious (i.e. indirectly controlled through the local mullah) who does not think too much or ask questions. This is important, for a man who unquestioningly accepts the mullah's diktat is more likely to accept the feudal lords' also. Misogyny is also useful, since it effectively reduces and delegates the control workload for the feudal lord: as long as the male slave is controlled, he will keep the rest of his family in line.

The day the poor uneducated worker has self realization on his plight and has decided enough is enough like Mohammed Bouaziz the fruit seller in Tunisia may well be the time for a 'arab spring' style revolution of the aam aadmi. Alas those farmers also have to put food on the table for their children and are stuck in a vicious cycle which is manipulated by the feudal lords and the mullahs.

 

[turbo charged]

Let's make sure we separate the religious views of Ahmadis from their loyalty to Pakistan and Pak army.


1. Religious views of Ahmadis.
As some posters have already said that Ahmadis do not consider non-Ahmadis as full Muslims (or non-Muslims in extreme cases).

I was personally shocked when I went over to my Ahmadi neighbor's house to offer condolences when his grandfather passed away. Apparently they do not like when a non-ahmadi Muslim wants to say good things about their recently deceased relatives.

Anywho! long stroy short.

Ahmadis do not consider the rest of us Muslims as equal to them unless we convert to their faith. Which I thought was not very tolerant outlook.

However Ahmadi views are limited to saying someone kafir and that's all.

I have not read or heard that any Ahmadi Khalifa has issued a fat fat fatwa to kill a non-Ahmadi.

this I feel is a much more tolerant view compared to our own Mullahtic Mullahs or the Shia Mullhatic Mullahs.


2. Ahmadis as citizens of Pakistan

They are the most loyal citizens, generally hardworking, and educated lot. They consider it an honor to serve in Pak army and defend our motherland.


Thus the Ahmadi issue is the matter of hearts, and their beliefs how terrible they may be are limited to them as persons.

They do not pose an existential threat to Pakistan and never will be.

On the other hand, Sunni and Shia Mullahs are more loyal to Saudi and Iran than they ever will be to Pakistan.

And thus both Sunni and Shia extremists are the ones who pose existential threat to our motherland.


So the choice is ours to decide whom to punish and lock up on the jails, and whom to allow to prosper in our country.


peace.

here is what your mirza ghulam of qadian have said about people who dont agree with him.


"My enemies are dirty swine and their women are more wretched than bitches."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 14, P. 53; Najmul Huda, P. 10, 53)

"All Muslims regard my books with reverence and care and benefit from their sublime thoughts except those who are the offspring of prostitutes (bastards); God has put a seal upon their hearts and they do not accept me."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 5, Page 547-548; Mirat-o-Kamalat-i-Islam, P. 547;
Aeena-e-Kamalat Islam, P.547-548)
[Mirza Ghulam translated this Arabic word as "Bastard" in
Roohany Khazaen Vol. 11, P. 282)

"The one who has no belief in our ultimate victory is fond of becoming bastard and he is bound to be product of fornication."
(Roohany Kazaen, Vol. 9, P. 31; Anwar ul Islam, P. 30)

"Are they prepared to swear? No, they'll never do so because they are liars and are derooting the corpse of falsehood like dogs."
(Supplement to Anjam-e-Atham, P. 25; Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 11, P. 309)

His eulogy about Maulvi Saadullah Ludhianwi was:

"I look a sinful man among debauched who is more scoundrel and an execrated being like Satan... He who is called Saadullah by the ignorant is slanderer, wicked and a falsifier... You injured me, bastard. I won't be truthful if you won't have a disgraceful death."
(Haqiqat-ul Wahi, P. 14-15; Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 22, P. 734-735)

"If Abdullah Athum is saved from death (as per Mirza's prophecy) and if all the world say the Christian was correct, then the bastard will not follow the right path."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 9, P. 32)

"Abdul Haq is not content with our victories. He is itching to become a bastard."
(Anwar-ul-Islam, P. 30)

"There is nothing more foul than a pig in the world. But the ulema who oppose me are more foul than pigs."
(Anjam-i-Atham, P. 21)

"You have inflicted pain on me with your foulness. You are not truthful. I pray that you die in shame, you son of a harlot."
(Anjam-i-Atham, P. 288)

"This bastard of a doctor does not thread the straight path."
(Anwar-ul-Islam, P. 30)

He called Shaikhul Islam Saanaullah of Amristar:
"O, the son of wind, o traitor..."
(Ijaz-i-Ahmadi, P. 43/77)

The puzzling thing is that he himself wrote:

"I have never abused anyone."
(Moahiburahman, P. 18)

"He is worst who is abusive, his heart is as ****** as Latrine."
(Sar-e-Sumain, P. 74)

"Abuses and rebukes are not the acts of a believer and a believer can not be a curser."
(Azalat-ul-Auham, P. 66)

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/social-issues-current-events/224439-tracing-hate.html#ixzz2FUEO4Zbc


he has used the word latrine numerous times in his books and and in the end your tolerant,love for all hate for none mentor died in the latrine.....


few years ago while i was abroad and studying....i had a classmate from india he was from calcutta....i decided to show him the picture of peace loving mirza ghulam qadian.....so i dident told him anything about his background and his claims....not even his name...so showed him the following picture of mirza ghulam of qadian.

http://www.indianetzone.com/photos_gallery/14/MirzaGhulam_19230.jpg


after looking at the above picture he said......i dont know this guys religion...he is wearing a hinduish turban,yet he has a sikhly beard....i dont what his name is ...no...nothing....but by looking at his face i can say he has broken all records of haramkari(ous nai kaha kai mai is banday ko bilkul bhi nahi janta....likin jaisi lanat or nahusat is ki shakal pai perri hui hai...mai yeh daway sai keh sakta hun kai is aadmi nai ...haramkari kai tamam sabka record toor diay hain.......
he said shareef aadmio ki aisi shakal nahi hoti.......(honourable people dont have such cursed faces)..

so then i told him mirza ghulam of qadian's claims and he was like not at all surprised...he said the lanat on his face says it all.



@FaujHistorian
@somebozo
@Mercenary
@SHAMK9

 

[FaujHistorian]

The day the poor uneducated worker has self realization on his plight and has decided enough is enough like Mohammed Bouaziz the fruit seller in Tunisia may well be the time for a 'arab spring' style revolution of the aam aadmi. Alas those farmers also have to put food on the table for their children and are stuck in a vicious cycle which is manipulated by the feudal lords and the mullahs.

This is what IK is talking about. Who knows this may happen. Although the revolutionary spirit in Pakistan has been hijacked by the T@libani Isl@mists. Ordinary man feels so dejected with daily killing and bombing. This is probably why we don't see the Arab spring here even though IK was jumping up and down on it for a while.

While most of us have our stomachs full thanks to bumper crops over the years.
But
Sadly our brains are empty when it comes to figuring out what to do next.




Tax reforms are badly needed. But not just the tax laws. We need to change the whole CBR (tax collection agency) and many other tax collectors down to Kuchehri (sub-district) level.


I am just curious.

--- Have any of you been an "actual farmer"? I mean you or developro etc. and so many others make loose comments about Pakistani farmers.

--- Have you tried to manage one Murabba (25 British acres) of land and associated workers, their family, machinery, animals etc. Or you all just sit in a big city and f@rt like the fatso don Altaf. Just wondering!

--- Any of you have been to a farm and actually done the tilling and harvested something even for one season?

This is important.

You have to walk the farmer's walk before you can talk.


Thank you

 

[Yeti]

This is what IK is talking about. Who knows this may happen. Although the revolutionary spirit in Pakistan has been hijacked by the T@libani Isl@mists. Ordinary man feels so dejected with daily killing and bombing. This is probably why we don't see the Arab spring here even though IK was jumping up and down on it for a while.

While most of us have our stomachs full thanks to bumper crops over the years.
But
Sadly our brains are empty when it comes to figuring out what to do next.




Tax reforms are badly needed. But not just the tax laws. We need to change the whole CBR (tax collection agency) and many other tax collectors down to Kuchehri (sub-district) level.


I am just curious.

--- Have any of you been an "actual farmer"? I mean you or developro etc. and so many others make loose comments about Pakistani farmers.

--- Have you tried to manage one Murabba (25 British acres) of land and associated workers, their family, machinery, animals etc. Or you all just sit in a big city and f@rt like the fatso don Altaf. Just wondering!

--- Any of you have been to a farm and actually done the tilling and harvested something even for one season?

This is important.

You have to walk the farmer's walk before you can talk.


Thank you

One can show empathy at a farmers plight without actually being one, myself I have been to farms countless times and seen many things grow such as cotton. You can speak to farmers to understand what problems they might be facing on a daily basis to better understand the farming industry.

 

[Developereo]

--- Have any of you been an "actual farmer"? I mean you or developro etc. and so many others make loose comments about Pakistani farmers.

--- Have you tried to manage one Murabba (25 British acres) of land and associated workers, their family, machinery, animals etc. Or you all just sit in a big city and f@rt like the fatso don Altaf. Just wondering!

A study funded by the Asian Development Bank:

Social Structures in Rural Pakistan

There are others, including work by foreign NGOs, which describe the private jails and other means by which feudal lords rule rural Pakistan. The problems in Baluchistan are also caused by their sardars who block every effort by the federal government to help the common people.

 

[Contrarian]

Secondly, land reforms in Egypt, West Bengal and many many places around the world were "utter failure".

Thirdly those who jump up and down about Nehruvian socialism, fail to notice that his land reform was primarily directed towards Muslim landlords. Because Congress was funded by Hindu mill owners.

I would disagree totally. Nehru as a person was probably the embodiment of secularism that we strive to achieve in India. Land Reforms were done across India by Nehru.
The problem however came in its implementation - it failed in many States where the Landlords were dictatorial and present on their territories. They transferred land in their relatives name's to avoid the land ceiling laws. However in many States where there was absentee landlords, land reforms succeeded, the peasants literally took over the lands.

So it was successful in some states and unsuccessful in other states. But by being successful in some states was enough to break the stranglehold of power they collectively had, to chip away slowly in the decades to come.

There was never any attempt to target either Hindu or Muslim landlords. The Congress is be all and end all of what the Indian people knew, and you would have to be present in that era to understand the cult of Nehru. In a sense, Nehru was India and India was Nehru. He could do anything he wanted. The Congress after coming to power post independence was not dependent an iota on any Mill owners. Nehru was not dependent on any one else. The only time in the early days when he faced dissent and resentment was when he wanted to pass the Hindu Civil Code. All the High Caste Hindus opposed him, all pandits and whatnot. Nehru just had to issue one threat - that He will leave India if this is not accepted, and everyone fell in line.