Top US Air Force General surprised how poorly Russian Air Force has performed

[jhungary]

Yes I'm aware of guided artillery. It's made and used in many parts of the world. What does that have to do with the comment about Russians not being aware a JDAM is superior to artillery? As if Russia has no JDAM equivalents and other PGMs or haven't been using them.

We actually have no idea just how much Russia has been using them. Except laughable western propaganda articles claiming "Russia has run out of PGMs" lololol Westerners honestly believe their own farts at this point. No numbers, no analysis, no Bayesian methods employed. Not even a consideration that perhaps Russians are using artillery because they think artillery achieves objective for much cheaper.

Maybe Russia has plenty of PGMs. They simply use artillery more than NATO doctrine and apply artillery where NATO may choose to apply PGMs (not guided shells). Months after claims of Russia running out or low on PGMs from western publications, Russians still using PGMs. The fact they are using artillery also somehow brings out western trolls to claim Russia has no PGMs or whatever... stupid shit like Russians don't know PGMs>artillery.

That's 2 separate issue,

1.) PGM (Not just JDAM) is important for modern battlefield, as I said, you want to put Weapon to Target ratio as close as possible.

2.) Russian does not depends on PGM (JDAM equivalent, cruise missile) on the field.

Nobody fight a war would want it to be harder than they want to do, I mean nobody fight a war thinking "What can I make this war more challenging for me" Which mean if a war is fought with WW2 tactics, this is not by your own design or admission, because as I said, no one in the right mind would think "How can I make this war more challenging"

The first thing you want to do in war is to take out as many target as possible. That way you have a easier war to pick up, or what people called "Shock and Awe" tactics. That is done whether or not you are in the Eastern or in the Western way of thinking. Sure, you can try and do this with dumb bomb instead of PGM, but that would be more resource intense, which mean you are making your situation harder if you have PGM and you choose to use dumb bomb instead.

That is exactly because Russian know about PGM and know how to use them and not using them is the problem here, can't you really see that? Other than I want to make this war harder for me, the only other reason is they don't have enough stock. That is the only 2 logical reason there are.

On the other hand, if you compare how many missile strike Russia launch at the beginning of the war and now, you can see an obvious drop. Which usually point to they have run out of missile they can deploy.

But sure, if you want "Actual" confirmation, then unless Russia is really stupid enough to tell the world they are out of PGM, that is NEVER going to happens. Which mean all these are only guess, but again, would it be logical for you to think "Hey I want this war to fight cheap and harder by withholding PGM?" Well, if you really think that's logical, then all I can say is you should stay off being a military man. But then of course you can think that.

No Excalibur is given to Ukraine. Export downgraded M777 cannot shoot Excalibur, only basic unguided rounds.

Canada is Sending Ukraine Excalibur Precision-Guided, Extended-Range Artillery Shells

Learn about the Excalibur GPS-guided artillery round that Canada is sending to Ukraine along with four howitzers to fire them. The Excalibur Round can put 48 pounds of high explosives through the sunroof of your SUV from 40 miles away.

sofrep.com

That's 2 months ago.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Canada is Sending Ukraine Excalibur Precision-Guided, Extended-Range Artillery Shells

Learn about the Excalibur GPS-guided artillery round that Canada is sending to Ukraine along with four howitzers to fire them. The Excalibur Round can put 48 pounds of high explosives through the sunroof of your SUV from 40 miles away.

sofrep.com

That's 2 months ago.

Canada only has like 100 Excalibur in total. Canada only sent 4 M777 to Ukraine, which are all destroyed by now. Canada's military is a joke. By comparison, Russia uses thousands of Krasnopol a week.

 

[Oldman1]

That's 2 separate issue,

1.) PGM (Not just JDAM) is important for modern battlefield, as I said, you want to put Weapon to Target ratio as close as possible.

2.) Russian does not depends on PGM (JDAM equivalent, cruise missile) on the field.

Nobody fight a war would want it to be harder than they want to do, I mean nobody fight a war thinking "What can I make this war more challenging for me" Which mean if a war is fought with WW2 tactics, this is not by your own design or admission, because as I said, no one in the right mind would think "How can I make this war more challenging"

The first thing you want to do in war is to take out as many target as possible. That way you have a easier war to pick up, or what people called "Shock and Awe" tactics. That is done whether or not you are in the Eastern or in the Western way of thinking. Sure, you can try and do this with dumb bomb instead of PGM, but that would be more resource intense, which mean you are making your situation harder if you have PGM and you choose to use dumb bomb instead.

That is exactly because Russian know about PGM and know how to use them and not using them is the problem here, can't you really see that? Other than I want to make this war harder for me, the only other reason is they don't have enough stock. That is the only 2 logical reason there are.

On the other hand, if you compare how many missile strike Russia launch at the beginning of the war and now, you can see an obvious drop. Which usually point to they have run out of missile they can deploy.

But sure, if you want "Actual" confirmation, then unless Russia is really stupid enough to tell the world they are out of PGM, that is NEVER going to happens. Which mean all these are only guess, but again, would it be logical for you to think "Hey I want this war to fight cheap and harder by withholding PGM?" Well, if you really think that's logical, then all I can say is you should stay off being a military man. But then of course you can think that.

Canada is Sending Ukraine Excalibur Precision-Guided, Extended-Range Artillery Shells

Learn about the Excalibur GPS-guided artillery round that Canada is sending to Ukraine along with four howitzers to fire them. The Excalibur Round can put 48 pounds of high explosives through the sunroof of your SUV from 40 miles away.

sofrep.com

That's 2 months ago.

Honestly they haven't been impressive at all with using aircraft and PGMs like they used in Syria. Don't know if its because of lack of air defense there or they just don't know how to handle it in Ukraine. I can tell that if the USAF was involved, you be seeing tens of thousands dead Russian troops in the first few weeks of war from the bombings alone even with their air defense systems and aircraft.

 

[WotTen]

either they are doing a very good job on making people believe their incompetence, or they are really this incompetence.

If they really are incompetent, that's even worse. It means in a direct conflict with NATO, they may resort to more desperate weapons. But I still think Russia is keeping their aces secret only for use against NATO. I am sure NATO commanders are not taking Russia at its word and underestimating it in a potential direct conflict.

On the other hand, US election is largely irrelevant, because supporting Ukraine is bi-partisan, this is not going to change in 6 months when the mid term comes

This war is media-driven. How much of that media support is backed by real people suffering an economic downturn -- talk of a recession may become commonplace by November -- will be seen at the polls.

 

[jhungary]

Honestly they haven't been impressive at all with using aircraft and PGMs like they used in Syria. Don't know if its because of lack of air defense there or they just don't know how to handle it in Ukraine. I can tell that if the USAF was involved, you be seeing tens of thousands dead Russian troops in the first few weeks of war from the bombings alone even with their air defense systems and aircraft.

Welcome back,

Where have you been? My last post to you is at the beginning of June. It's almost end of June......

Russian Air Force did not use their aircraft at all, as USAF tracking their sortie, they only did around 300 in the first month, not remotely enough for anything. Compare to what we did in the first gulf war, this is peanut, we sortied around 100,000 just for the 21 days air war.

That probably accounts for the slow progress in Ukraine. As for why they did that, that's anybody guess.

 

[Oldman1]

Welcome back,

Where have you been? My last post to you is at the beginning of June. It's almost end of June......

Russian Air Force did not use their aircraft at all, as USAF tracking their sortie, they only did around 300 in the first month, not remotely enough for anything. Compare to what we did in the first gulf war, this is peanut, we sortied around 100,000 just for the 21 days air war.

That probably accounts for the slow progress in Ukraine. As for why they did that, that's anybody guess.

Just been busy. Glad to be back.

I'm thinking of lack of flight hours of training with 100hrs or less and probably maintenance and lack of spare parts just like their vehicles is what's probably preventing them from doing more sorties and maybe lack of PGMs honestly. Not to mentioned scared of getting shot down.

 

[jhungary]

If they really are incompetent, that's even worse. It means in a direct conflict with NATO, they may resort to more desperate weapons. But I still think Russia is keeping their aces secret only for use against NATO. I am sure NATO commanders are not taking Russia at its word and underestimating it in a potential direct conflict.

Well, hiding an ace in a hole I got it, but not like this, I mean, you are talking about not really sending enough aircraft in the field, the aircraft that the west already know and seen its capability, this is not like we are hiding some superduper laser weapon and not wanting the west to know. But instead it is how Russia prosecute this war itself is a problem.

That is the main different.

This war is media-driven. How much of that media support is backed by real people suffering an economic downturn -- talk of a recession may become commonplace by November -- will be seen at the polls.

The thing is, US is not hit as hard as EU, and the longer this world drag on the more it actually benefit the US, would you think 6 months down the road we are still paying 5 buck per gallon gas (US $1.5/litre) Biden already withdraw the tax and open up reserve tap, the oil price is going to come down in the next three months

This is the worse of this war we are going to see, and even so, both right leaning and left leaning media both support the issue, and as I said, just 6 months ago, Sky News (especially Sky News Australia) are bending over backward on Russia, have you seen how they report even today?

Just been busy. Glad to be back.

I'm thinking of lack of flight hours of training with 100hrs or less and probably maintenance and lack of spare parts just like their vehicles is what's probably preventing them from doing more sorties and maybe lack of PGMs honestly. Not to mentioned scared of getting shot down.

Well, that's probably the point, but then another issue I can see is RuAF is not gear to do stuff like that, we have a compliment of supporting aircraft that deal with offensive operation. Russia have none of that (EW, Jammer, Airborne C&C and so on)To have them fly there actually doing SEAD without those supporting aircraft is more or less suicide when Ukraine is a peer on Air Defence.

 

[Oldman1]

Well, that's probably the point, but then another issue I can see is RuAF is not gear to do stuff like that, we have a compliment of supporting aircraft that deal with offensive operation. Russia have none of that (EW, Jammer, Airborne C&C and so on)To have them fly there actually doing SEAD without those supporting aircraft is more or less suicide when Ukraine is a peer on Air Defence.

Yeah I forgot to mention SEAD.

 

[WotTen]

5 buck per gallon gas

LOL, I remember paying 86 cents/gallon (eighty-six-cents!) back in the 80s.

The national oil reserves are supposed to be used for unavoidable emergencies. Is US involvement in Ukraine unavoidable? People may start to ask tougher questions.

Also, if Western Europe backs off due to popular opinion, will the US continue? Certainly the US has the capability to fly in supplies directly to Poland or Romania, but will it do so without Western European support?

Sky News (especially Sky News Australia) are bending over backward on Russia, have you seen how they report even today?

Murdoch media is like Alex Jones on steroids! Trump supporters from the US were watching and praising Sky News Australia while US media was trashing him.

 

[Oldman1]

LOL, I remember paying 86 cents/gallon (eighty-six-cents!) back in the 80s.

The national oil reserves are supposed to be used for unavoidable emergencies. Is US involvement in Ukraine unavoidable? People may start to ask tougher questions.

Also, if Western Europe backs off due to popular opinion, will the US continue? Certainly the US has the capability to fly in supplies directly to Poland or Romania, but will it do so without Western European support?



Murdoch media is like Alex Jones on steroids! Trump supporters from the US were watching and praising Sky News Australia while US media was trashing him.

Western or Eastern Europe won't back off supporting Ukraine no matter what people will say. In their view, Russia is the only main enemy. Hence why you got countries willing to give up their planes and vehicles for the cause. Who is the main enemy in Europe for many decades or years? They build up their military specially for this. Not Germany vs Britain or France versus Poland, etc. Its Russia. Might as well give it to Ukraine who is doing the fighting when Russia plans to re-establish their empire again.

 

[jhungary]

LOL, I remember paying 86 cents/gallon (eighty-six-cents!) back in the 80s.

The national oil reserves are supposed to be used for unavoidable emergencies. Is US involvement in Ukraine unavoidable? People may start to ask tougher questions.

Also, if Western Europe backs off due to popular opinion, will the US continue? Certainly the US has the capability to fly in supplies directly to Poland or Romania, but will it do so without Western European support?

Well, people in the know, will tell you that the reason why oil price is high and US is doing nothing is because of the oil company greed. If you a Exxon, BP or Shell exec, would you want to lobby the US to go into their reserve to lower the price of gas when you can sell them for 5 bucks a gallon? Bear in mind US is number 1 oil production country in the world.

Biden is too weak to push these oil company back, that's the problem here, there are measurement in place to lower the oil price as of now, but they aren't doing them because the government is suckered by those oil exec to prolong this price. Instead of lower the oil tax, Biden should be charging special tax and open up reserve tap to force those oil company to comply.

That is the problem

Murdoch media is like Alex Jones on steroids! Trump supporters from the US were watching and praising Sky News Australia while US media was trashing him.

Anyway, I don't think media-sense will change in 6 months, sure, there are a lot of thing the media can talk about but you just can't shine away an European war in the 21st century.

 

[Muhammed45]

The biggest problem of the Russian army, including the Russian air force, in the Ukrainian war was the lack of mobilization capacity.

In the second Iraq war, there were 180000 UN troops and only 70000 Iraqi troops.

In the Ukrainian war, Ukraine now has at least 800000 troops on the front line, and Russia has no more than 200000 troops participating in the war. Because of the lack of military strength, the Russian air force could not get enough intelligence and security from the ground forces. Because of the shortage of troops, the Russian air force needs to complete many tasks that do not belong to them.

Russia has a population of 140million. In such a long preparation period, only 200000 troops have been mobilized. This mobilization capability is not only far lower than that of the Soviet Union, but even worse than that of Czarist Russia.

Did you really expect Russia to fully mobilize its forces to fight against Ukrainians?

What you see now, is not even 1/10th of what Russia is capable of. Russia is a vast country with vast resources both in terms of minerals and manpower. The only factor keeping Ukraine on its feet so far, has been NATO support for the country.

 

[dbc]

PGM compared with artillery? They are so different in cost. Russia has been using PGMs as well. The argument that they don't know a PGM is more effective than artillery is absurd. They use both. The US also uses both. The frequency of use is different and Russia cannot afford to make, buy, and use as many PGMs as the US.

Correct, PGM are typically reserved when the target is defended and you need to kill something at stand off range. In Iraq and Afghanistan the US used dumb bombs (including CAS/ danger close situations) once all threats to air assets were cleared. The caveat is the capability of the platform and training of the air crew, delta canard platforms (Rafale/J10) for instance suffer from a twitchy nose and is unable to bunt. Such platforms need multiple runs and greater time on target to achieve any accuracy with cheap iron bombs. Having said all of the above, FAC, supporting ground troops in contact with the enemy in Iraq and Afghanistan preferred the A10, Spectre gun ship over fast air simply because these platforms have greater loiter time.

Russian PGM's and associated sensor suite is unreliable plus the air crew don't earn enough training currency in PGM drops to achieve the desired level of success, the meagre use of PGM by the Russians has nothing to do with inventory or cost. Plus Russia hasn't achieved air superiority over Ukraine both reasons make the use of PGMs not worth the risk.

 

[Abdul Rehman Majeed]

You are a Really simple minded Dude ! My advise, THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX. Russia is fighting not only Ukrainians Troops inside Ukraine but it is also fighting NATO/US troops inside Ukraine !

Yes Russia and NATO are fighting each other but Ukraine has signed up to provide herself as the venue and get destroyed in the process.

Ukrainians are truly idiots.

 

[Apollon]

Sure. It's so weak and so hopeless not a single western countries dares to do anything about it except constant bitching and complaining.

If you want to bitch and complain, fix the situation. You are so much stronger than Russia right? Go stop their invasion.

We have stopped it. Last time i checked Kiew is free of orcs